Magic Puppet Theory

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

I note the great irony (which is not addressed here) of citing as an authority Irenaeus to argue against authority!!!

Anyway, here's what he had to say on tradition
For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Universal Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the apostles.
Against Heresies Book II:9
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Knee V · Jan 7, 2012

Irenaeus didn't say that the Scriptures are the pillar and ground of our faith. He said that those from whom they learned the plan of salvation proclaimed the Gospel to be the pillar and ground of truth. Part of that proclamation was through Scripture, by the will of God.

His point was that the Gospel is the pillar and ground of truth. He is not making commentary on Scripture.

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

It would be one thing, anyway, to say "Scriptures are a pillar of truth" to saying that they're the only one.

This is a clear case of not seeing the forest for the trees - because it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER to cite the ECFs as an authority to argue that you don't need the ECFS as an authority.

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

Earlier there was this comment...

Have you read the OT provided us as an example (Paul)?

I am not Paul. I don't know who Paul is, but I know he didn't write the OT.

Rick Otto · Jan 7, 2012

Montalban said:
The magic puppet theory.

In talking about the formation of the Bible (which took place some 200 years or more after Jesus) I ask people how God worked with the church.

Some say that God can work with whomever he chooses.

I've heard it said that even by this time the church had already fallen into apostasy (some say it was changed by Constantine).

I believe this can be summed up in the 'Magic Puppet Theory'

It's a belief that God just worked these people and got them to compile a bible as a puppet-master manipulates his charges.

The church, if it was already apostate seems to just be manipulated into acting.

Of course, if it wasn't 'apostate' by this time then the theorists open themselves to me and others using evidence from writers of the church for those first centuries.

The problem in your cognition of the situation is due to your definition of "Church". Thereby you are confused when someone correctly says "the church" was apostate. You only allow for the church being the visible organization with it's ornately bedecked hierarchy. That's why you recoil at such statements.
The fact that there are more than one orthodoxies in Christianity should alert us to it.

Standing Up · Jan 7, 2012

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.ii.html

The plan of salvation ... by the will of God handed ... to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Councils, Tradition, Papacy, Mariology, none is there.

Rick Otto · Jan 7, 2012

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.ii.html

Montalban;I don't like it when ECFs are being misquoted, and it's especially odd when someone would be appealing to an ECF as an authority on a subject to attempt to show that the ECFs have no authority because the bible alone does!

Exaggerating the case adds drama to the conversation, but only at the expense of your own credibility. (" attempt to show that the ECFs have no authority ). Putting authority in order is not dismissing it completely. Let's be calm & not reactive in extremes.
What is wierd about an ECF admitting the scriptures are the ground & pillar of our faith?

Irenaeus starts this off with what should be a 'clue' to his meaning here.

As if a "clue" is needed to understand plain speech.

"The apostles did not commence to preach the Gospel, or to place anything on record until they were endowed with the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit. They preached one God alone, Maker of heaven and earth."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

If the bible alone was their sole authority then it's to say that they didn't start to write things down until it was written down!

ROFL!

Which makes no sense.

Congratulations. That's what we're trying to tell you!
It isn't the sole authority, it is the authority of last resort.

In other words the Apostles themselves did not rely solely on the bible.

It was soley scripture that prepared them for the whole experience. And if we were including personal witnesses of Jesus in the first place, it would be a different discussion entirely.

If they needed the bible first how could they have written it?

This intentional exploitation of ambiguity in terms* soley for the sake of provocation could be easily mistaken for harassment.

*as in equating "bible" with "scripture" & as if the OT scriptures don't contain the gospel in type & shadow as illustrated in Acts 17 w/the Bereans.

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

I'm not sure of the process of quoting ECFs without addressing responses to those quotes

Standing Up · Jan 7, 2012

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.ii.html

Rick Otto · Jan 7, 2012

Sola Quotatis

Standing Up · Jan 7, 2012

Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria 367ad.
2. But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation;
NPNF2-04. Athanasius: Select Works and Letters | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Nothing about tradition, councils, magic puppets, etc.

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

I hope the random quotes aren't just going to continue

Rick Otto · Jan 7, 2012

Standing Up said:
Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria 367ad.
2. But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation;
NPNF2-04. Athanasius: Select Works and Letters | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Nothing about tradition, councils, magic puppets, etc.

"...Divine Scriptures for salvation."
Not relevant?
LOL!

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

I've already noted two points (not just that Irenaus has already been misquoted earlier). None of these things have been addressed.

The two other points being:

a) where does it say that we should rely ONLY ON Scripture (and not tradition as well)
and
b) why's the sense of irony lost in citing an ECF as an authority to argue that ECFs have no authority?

Standing Up · Jan 7, 2012

Rick Otto said:
"...Divine Scriptures for salvation."
Not relevant?
LOL!

I need some new glasses. Ahh, here we go. It says, divine scriptures AND TRADITION AND COUNCILS AND MAGESTERIUMS for salvation.

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

Some people have an interesting sense of logic.

When something says "Scriptures are a pillar of truth" it doesn't say "Scriptures are the ONLY pillar of truth" especially when I've already shown the context of what Irenaus said.

The 'only' bit is not only missing, it's not even implied!

And it's still not addressing the irony of citing ECFs as an authority to say that they have no authority!

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

The only counter was a poisoning the well logical fallacy in relation to Ignatius of Antioch.

So far the argument then that we need only scripture has been

Selective quoting out of context, context not addressed, repeating selective quoting.

And logical fallacies

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

2.2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

Against heresies Book III,2.2
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iii.html

Standing Up · Jan 7, 2012

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.ii.html

The plan of salvation ... by the will of God handed ... to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Some want other grounds and other pillars.

Montalban · Jan 7, 2012

BUMP

Montalban said:
2.2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

Against heresies Book III,2.2
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

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