Magic(k)

Wicked Willow · Apr 19, 2010

It's been a while since we had a good talk about magic(k) in here - or even a not-so-good talk, for that matter. As magic is an integral part of some belief systems, and a strict taboo within others, I'd say that it is one of those topics that ought to be virtually inexhaustible as far as fostering better understanding between different religions or world views is concerned.

The first problem you run into is, of course, establishing what people mean when they use the term "magic". Just imagine a discussion between a person who thinks that it refers to the fireball-hurling wizardry portrayed in cheap fantasy novels, a person who thinks that it's essentially Satanic worship, and a person who practices it as a path of personal transformation by means of symbols and rituals. (Having approximately as many definitions of "magic" as there are practitioners out there doesn't exactly help, either.)

So, let's at first figure out what we are talking about here, and what not:

- We are not talking about stage magic/illusionism (although stage magic techniques can be/are used in actual magickal setting, such as a shaman performing a healing ceremony and pretending to physically remove the illness from his patient to trigger the placebo effect.)

- We are not talking about flying broomsticks, lightning bolts shot from fingertips, or some other special effect-worthy stuff that you might be familiar with from some fantasy scenario or other.

- And, last but not least, we are not talking about Satanic worship, let alone the "slaughter your pets and babies"-kind envisioned by the yellow press.
(While there certainly are theistic satanists who also happen to be magic practitioners, they are not the topic of this thread.)

So, what *are* we talking about?
Maybe I should first allow somebody else to give her or his definition of "magick". (And I'm sure one of the most Crowley-citations is going to make an appearance here soon.)

sidhe · Apr 19, 2010

Crowley-citations?

You mean - "Magick is the art and science of creating a change in accordance with will?"

Yeah, that's a good working definition, IMHO.

Wicked Willow · Apr 19, 2010

Aye, the only objection to it that I can think of right now is that it doesn't distinguish sufficiently between this

and, say, this:

That's not to say that laying bricks couldn't be used as a magickal exercise, or that magick isn't as universal and fundamental to human existence as the Crowley-quote suggests - just that it's nice to have *some* means of distinguishing between different acts for communication's sake.

Several people have tried to add "amendments" to Crowley's definition to counter that effect, referencing trance states, use of symbols or rituals, and what-have-you.

Eudaimonist · Apr 19, 2010

Thanks, Wicked Willow, for that distinction. I believe in the "magic" of creating change in the universe using one's body in conformity with will. The brick layer is a great example of this.

I also believe in the "magic" of creating change in one's personal psychology in conformity with will, thus creating changes in the way one uses one's body, thus creating changes in the universe. If carrying your lucky rabbit foot around with you makes you have a more positive attitude, then you might act differently during the day, achieving different results. "The Secret" seems to be about this kind of "magic", even though it is absurdly explained as the Universe acting like a magical genie, all for your benefit.

So, does Crowley think that his magick actually involves some sort of unrecognized powers of human nature?

eudaimonia,

Mark

sidhe · Apr 19, 2010

Eudaimonist said:
Thanks, Wicked Willow, for that distinction. I believe in the "magic" of creating change in the universe using one's body in conformity with will. The brick layer is a great example of this.

I also believe in the "magic" of creating change in one's personal psychology in conformity with will, thus creating changes in the way one uses one's body, thus creating changes in the universe. If carrying your lucky rabbit foot around with you makes you have a more positive attitude, then you might act differently during the day, achieving different results. "The Secret" seems to be about this kind of "magic", even though it is absurdly explained as the Universe acting like a magical genie, all for your benefit.

So, does Crowley think that his magick actually involves some sort of unrecognized powers of human nature?

eudaimonia,

Mark

Crowley's response would be that as long as the act is Willed (in that odd metaphysical way of being "in accordance with the ultimate purpose of the individual"), it is magickal. Thus, for the Ayn Rand tie-in (since I'm talking to you ), Mike the Electrician in The Fountainhead is a magician, as his higher purpose is that to be the best electrician possible. Similarly, Roark is a magician who expresses his art through architecture.

Crowley's argument from metaphysics is that, so long as you are acting in accordance with your Will, the forces of the universe (from the highest heavens to the lowest hells) will give you no resistance and full support. Again, Roark would be a good example of this, as regardless of the obstacles placed before him by busy-bodies concerned with preventing his Will from being realized, Roark is successful.

So, yes, if the bricklayer in your picture is truly joyous at his job, and finds purpose and meaning in his life in the craft of masonry, then he is performing a magickal act. If it is drudgery that he subjects himself to for no higher purpose (such as funding education so he may be an architect/lawyer/doctor/vet/cinematographer/actor/etc.), then it is not.

Wicked Willow · Apr 19, 2010

I'm anything but a Crowley scholar, so I'm not really qualified to determine what Crowley might have thought.

But yes, at least the Western esoteric tradition is basically all about tapping the unrecognized powers of human nature, and putting the subconscious to good use rather than using it as a mere trash heap until the built-up pressure starts to mess up your life.

durangodawood · Apr 19, 2010

Wicked Willow said:

(So youre saying the Masons dont really use magick?)
.
.
I think magick is crystallizing your inner-will to invoke forces outside yourself to intervene on your behalf.
.

sidhe · Apr 19, 2010

Wicked Willow said:
I'm anything but a Crowley scholar, so I'm not really qualified to determine what Crowley might have thought.

But yes, at least the Western esoteric tradition is basically all about tapping the unrecognized powers of human nature, and putting the subconscious to good use rather than using it as a mere trash heap until the built-up pressure starts to mess up your life.

^Exactly.

If one looks at the progression of most esoteric outer orders, you move from mastering the physical (archetypal Earth), to the intellectual (archetypal Air), to the emotional (archetypal Water), to using these to control your desires and actions (archetypal Fire). Basically, its an assumption of control and responsibility for one's own life and well-being.

Wicked Willow · Apr 19, 2010

Here's what the Bearded Grand Master of Comics has to say on the matter. (As both a linguist and an aspiring writer, I can completely relate to Moore's line of thought.)

YouTube - Alan Moore: Art is Magic

durangodawood · Apr 19, 2010

sidhe said:
Basically, its an assumption of control and responsibility for one's own life and well-being.

Theres a flavor missing from this definition. Its not magickally delicious. Its so broad as to include any path aimed at perfection of character. Maybe thats what you intend?
.

Eudaimonist · Apr 19, 2010

sidhe said:
Crowley's response would be that as long as the act is Willed (in that odd metaphysical way of being "in accordance with the ultimate purpose of the individual"), it is magickal.

Okay, let's go with that definition. Suddenly, I might actually be a magician, just like my avatar.

Crowley's argument from metaphysics is that, so long as you are acting in accordance with your Will, the forces of the universe (from the highest heavens to the lowest hells) will give you no resistance and full support.

Okay -- now for the most interesting part of the discussion -- why would/do the "forces of the universe" act in this way?

Is the act of fulfilling one's ultimate purpose simply efficacious by nature in that there is no inner conflict to paralyse one, and no firm "grip" that others can have on one to impede one?

Or is there something more than this? Do the "highest heavens and lowest hells" step aside for you, as if they could actually block you?

Again, Roark would be a good example of this, as regardless of the obstacles placed before him by busy-bodies concerned with preventing his Will from being realized, Roark is successful.

Here, I would say that Roark acted in an efficacious way in the way that I had described above.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist · Apr 19, 2010

Wicked Willow said:
But yes, at least the Western esoteric tradition is basically all about tapping the unrecognized powers of human nature, and putting the subconscious to good use rather than using it as a mere trash heap until the built-up pressure starts to mess up your life.

This makes good sense. I have no objections. I can accept this as real.

eudaimonia,

Mark

sidhe · Apr 19, 2010

Eudaimonist said:
Okay, let's go with that definition. Suddenly, I might actually be a magician, just like my avatar.

Then you need a beard and a funny hat. I think it's necessary, personally.

Okay -- now for the most interesting part of the discussion -- why would/do the "forces of the universe" act in this way?

No clue. Crowley's answer would be that they take joy in our joy, and thus when we pursue joy we please them, leading to gaining their assistance.

Is the act of fulfilling one's ultimate purpose simply efficacious by nature in that there is no inner conflict to paralyse one, and no firm "grip" that others can have on one to impede one?

Or that.

Or is there something more than this? Do the "highest heavens and lowest hells" step aside for you, as if they could actually block you?

Given that heaven and hell, from the hermetic standpoint, are within you, then it could be metaphorical for the removal of self-doubt and distraction that leads to being able to pursue your higher purpose.

Basically, however you want to interpret it, you can go for it. There ain't dogma here. Maybe a few catmas, though.

Here, I would say that Roark acted in an efficacious way in the way that I had described above.

And that works.

Mark[/QUOTE]

durangodawood · Apr 19, 2010

I remember this story about Crowley demonstrating magik to an aquaintance by making a stranger trip and fall while walking.
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There's clearly something more/different going on there than an internal transformation.
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sidhe · Apr 19, 2010

durangodawood said:
I remember this story about Crowley demonstrating magik to an aquaintance by making a stranger trip and fall while walking.
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There's clearly something more/different going on there than an internal transformation.
.

There's also a story about Crowley signing a butcher shop bill with the sigil of a demon, causing the butcher to cut off his own hand and bleed to death.

That said, there are a lot of Crowley stories.

However, one could say that part of magick is also understanding the subtler influences than the physical...just those aren't necessarily the most effective.

dingdong · Apr 19, 2010

Can a miracle be considered magic?

sidhe · Apr 19, 2010

dingdong said:
Can a miracle be considered magic?

Read the thread. We're having a discussion of a particular paradigm here concerning the Western mystery traditions. Define what a miracle would be, and maybe we can discuss it. As it stands, since magick requires a distinct actor making a willed decision, no. It can only appear miraculous.

Eudaimonist · Apr 19, 2010

sidhe said:
Then you need a beard and a funny hat. I think it's necessary, personally.

Won't this do?

Okay, I can work on the beard.

Basically, however you want to interpret it, you can go for it. There ain't dogma here. Maybe a few catmas, though.

Sounds fine. Maybe it's like prayer. If you pray to find your car keys, you just might relax enough to remember where they are. Ta da! An answered prayer.

Did you know some people actually believe that a divine being is answering one's prayers? It's true. There are at least a dozen of such people. Maybe over a hundred.

Anyway, I suppose that if one mentally frames prayer, or magic(k) for that matter, as something hinting at supernatural powers, it might be more effective. Some might call that belief "faith".

I think Crowley was very clever at calling his techniques "magick". He even mangles the word to fit his numerology! LOL!

eudaimonia,

Mark

durangodawood · Apr 19, 2010

sidhe said:
There's also a story about Crowley signing a butcher shop bill with the sigil of a demon, causing the butcher to cut off his own hand and bleed to death.

That said, there are a lot of Crowley stories.

However, one could say that part of magick is also understanding the subtler influences than the physical...just those aren't necessarily the most effective.

I wish I could find that story. I think I got it from Robert Anton Wilson.
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But so you think magik can and often does attempt to invoke the assistance of forces from outside oneself... as opposed to being a project soley aimed at consciousness work?
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Eudaimonist · Apr 19, 2010

dingdong said:
Can a miracle be considered magic?

Well, the miracle of human beings landing on the Moon was made possible through magical glyphs known as "equations".

eudaimonia,

Mark

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