MAD, what do they believe ?

[franky67]

Please explain briefly what MAD folks believe

 

[Dispy]

In a "nut shell";

We believe that salvation is by grace through faith. Salvation is by placing one FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ 1 Cor. 15:1-4). The believer is then baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), and no water involved. It is the one baptism of Eph. 4:5. Also, that the moment one becomes a believer, that one is "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph. 1:13).

We believe the entire Bible, but, we also believe that all the Bible was FOR US, but not all TO US.

We believe that God gave His instructions for the Children of Israel through the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Their salvation/justification was by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH,

We believe that God gave His instructions for members of the Body of Christ through the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was given through the Apostle Paul. It is "the gospel of the grace of God" that is to be preached in this dispensation of grace.

We are called mid-Acts dispies (MAD) because we believe the Chruch, the Body of Christ was not formed until after God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen, in Acts 7, and the raising up of Saul/Paul in Acts 9.

Will attempt to answer any other questions you may have.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Please explain briefly what MAD folks believe

They do not believe in the new birth.
They do not believe the great commission.
They do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is for them, but only what Paul wrote is for them; and yet they deny much of what Paul wrote as being for them..

They do not believe that Paul's statement "do not forbid to speak in tongues" is for them,. they forbid to speak in tongues and teach it is deception and the devil.
They do not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Church today, and do not believe Pauls' statement to desire the best gifts but esp. to prophesy.
They teach that Jesus Christ did not preach the Gospel Paul preached and that no one before Paul was part of the body of Christ, which they teach began with Paul.
They believe the Jews as part of the nation of Israel do not have a heavenly hope, but only an earthly hope, and that all who are part of the so called body of Christ -acccording to their version- will rule over those Jews on earth from heaven forever.

These are the things I have read here and can point you to the threads where they can be found -but it would take time.
Hope that helps. -BTW; don't buy it

 

[BereanTodd]

In my opinion MAD should be considered "unorthodox theology" and thrown in with those heretics. I don't mean that to sound rude or offensive, but according to all ofthe MAD folks I've ever talked to there are only a handful of books of the BIble that even really apply to us, basically most of Paul's letters and parts of Acts and that's about it. The words of Christ really aren't that instructive for us because He was talking to Jews, so things like baptism and such mean nothing to us today.

 

[Dispy]

In my opinion MAD should be considered "unorthodox theology" and thrown in with those heretics. I don't mean that to sound rude or offensive, but according to all ofthe MAD folks I've ever talked to there are only a handful of books of the BIble that even really apply to us, basically most of Paul's letters and parts of Acts and that's about it. The words of Christ really aren't that instructive for us because He was talking to Jews, so things like baptism and such mean nothing to us today.

We area called mid-Acts dispensationalists (MAD) because we belive that the Chruch, the Body of Christ was not formed until after God set the nation of Israel aside (temporarily), after the stoning of Stephen, in Acts 7, and the raising up of Saul/Paul in Acts 9

Your bio indicates that you are a Baptist. the majority of Baptist that I know consider themselves Acts 2 dispensationalists, because the believe the Church, the Body of Christ, began at Pentecost.

Those in attendance at Pentecost were strickly members of the Jewish Church, and were in Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Pentecost. Those that assembled were Jews and proselytes (Acts 2:8-11, cf 3:12).

IMHO, the Church, the Body of Christ did not exist at Pentecost. The Church, the Body of Christ, consists of Jew and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

One cannot find a Church that fits the above definition at Pentecost.

You did not give any reason why you consider us MAD's hereticial. I would like to know your reasons in order that I may defend our position. Please give your reasons based upon Scripture.

Should you not wish to do that, then there is no need for you to post anything further on this thread. You will not be believed.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[BereanTodd]

You did not give any reason why you consider us MAD's hereticial. I would like to know your reasons in order that I may defend our position. Please give your reasons based upon Scripture.

The church at Pentecost may not have fully grasped that the Gospel was for all yet, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't the church. There is no verse that speaks of mutliple churches or that implies that the church did not exist before Paul. There are not 2 gospels. The fact that every MAD I've ever met claims that the entire Bible with the exception of a few of Paul's letters doesn't apply to them in and of itself makes it heretical to me. You throw away all of Scripture and treat it as dirt. You teach that we should not baptise when Christ clearly sent us into the world to baptise.

Why did the Holy Spirit record for us as some of Christ's last words that we should go into all the world baptising people, if it really only meant to go to the Jews baptising them?

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

You make Christ a liar, you say that we should not baptise people of all nations. The MAD doctrine is silly, abberant, makes Christ a liar, and teaches false doctrine based on poor exegesis. There, you asked why I don't like it, start with that.

 

[TheScottsMen]

They do not believe in the new birth.

Sure we do. I would even go as far as to say that those in the OT experienced the new birth as well.

[quoteThey do not believe the great commission.[/quote]
First, no where is it called the "great commission". We can be sure it was a great commission, but it is not the ONLY commission found in the Bible.

They do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is for them,

There is much within the Gospels that is for us today. But as for the kingdom that was preached, it pertained mostly to the restoration of Israel.

but only what Paul wrote is for them; and yet they deny much of what Paul wrote as being for them..

Paul is the only person in the Bible that says he is the apostle for the gentiles, and he magnifies his office. Should we do anything less?

They do not believe that Paul's statement "do not forbid to speak in tongues" is for them,. they forbid to speak in tongues and teach it is deception and the devil.

Uhh? The majority of Protestantism does not believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today either.

They do not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the Church today, and do not believe Pauls' statement to desire the best gifts but esp. to prophesy.

Lutherans, Presbyterians, Etc.. do not believe the gifts are for today. I hardly would consider MAB's unorthodox for believing the same.

They teach that Jesus Christ did not preach the Gospel Paul preached and that no one before Paul was part of the body of Christ, which they teach began with Paul.

Did Jesus preach his death, burial, and resurrection for eternal life? If so, where?

They believe the Jews as part of the nation of Israel do not have a heavenly hope, but only an earthly hope, and that all who are part of the so called body of Christ -acccording to their version- will rule over those Jews on earth from heaven forever.

Sounds good.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Sure we do. I would even go as far as to say that those in the OT experienced the new birth as well.

First, no where is it called the "great commission". We can be sure it was a great commission, but it is not the ONLY commission found in the Bible.

There is much within the Gospels that is for us today. But as for the kingdom that was preached, it pertained mostly to the restoration of Israel.
Paul is the only person in the Bible that says he is the apostle for the gentiles, and he magnifies his office. Should we do anything less?
Uhh? The majority of Protestantism does not believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today either.
Lutherans, Presbyterians, Etc.. do not believe the gifts are for today. I hardly would consider MAB's unorthodox for believing the same.
Did Jesus preach his death, burial, and resurrection for eternal life? If so, where?
Sounds good.

Jesus is "the Gospel": the Seed of the Woman =Zion above, as proclaimed in Genesis 3:15, now come in flesh of the second creation: and the day of His conception [the body prepared in the womb of the virgin for His indwelling forever] is the Day from which all in Adam are blessed, "backward and forward"; and that Day is the 24th day of the 9th month in the Hebrew Calendar -you need to learn about the Day from which we are blessed "backward and forward" from Haggai chapter 2 in the original Hebrew language. He came as Kinsman =Redeemer, and that Kinsman/Redeemer come in flesh is the Good News: the rest of the story is how He accomplished the Ransom and redemption.

Paul's companion, Luke, gave us the Witness of His coming as promised from the beginning, as Matthew, Mark and John did.
```
That said:MAD doctrine denies the new birth as recorded in Scripture and no one in the Old Testament was born again, but Enoch, only, who was born of the Spirit of Christ and taken away, and is the firstborn of the Spirit of Christ according to the biblical law of Kinsman, when the kinsman raises up his firstborn seed to the deceased brother's name; for Enoch received "garments of glory" and was thereby translated and taken to the city of God to dwell forever [but if you will read the book, you'll see that Enoch "was not", for God took him forward in time, for he saw the city filled with the redeemed and longed to go there, and was granted that desire -but "translated"- and apparently taken forward in time to dwell there, for no one dwelt there until the LORD came in human flesh as the Chief Cornerstone [second human being body prepared for His habitation] of Zion; which is that heavenly City of God which is our hope who are born again in Spirit and who are made part of that city: that is my opinion about the firstborn seed of Christ after study, and if someone studies the matter and has another opinion I am open to their opinions if they actually do study and know the subject matter -discussion from informed and understanding minds is always a pleasure.
~~~
That said: Jesus told us that among those born of women among men [of Adamkind -Jesus is Israelkind and Firstborn in Israelkind, the New human being], there was none greater than John the Baptist; but he that was least in the kingdom of God was greater than John. Yet; John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb, in the same Spirit which empowered Elijah; yet neither John nor Elijah were born again in Spirit, though Abraham had the promise of the Spirit 'signed' in his name change, with the breath of Life added to his inner 'name' - "HA".
Before Jesus Christ ascended, leading captivity captive, Abraham -who had the promise and believed by faith, but not the actual new birth- had to descend to Sheol to the place prepared for the all the righteous to wait for the Day of Atonement, which Day ended the remembrance of Adam's transgression and put away the first death "in Adam" forever -for whosoever will.

Without the new birth in Spirit no man could ascend to the Father, and this is what the redemption is all about, by the Kinsman=Redeemer, who came to ransom the lost sons of God born in Adam and restore them in His name to sonship and the glory of the Father indwelling: He came to bring many sons to glory -whosoever will may come.
~~
That said: this is not about what any cessationist claims about the gifts of the Spirit for today, this is about the particular claim of those who follow the teachings of MAD and claim they follow only Paul, but who deny Paul's specific instructions to "do not forbid to speak in tongues" and to "seek earnestly the best gifts and rather to prophesy":
One is not honest to throw out all Scripture but what Paul wrote as "for them" to follow, and then to deny Paul's commands -is one?

Trinity is not in Scripture, either, but the Truth is YHWH is One Spirit, three Persons, seen in one similitude, or image, but unapproachable Light as to the Father, first Person, though seen in the Similitude of the Word, second Person; who is now come in second human being flesh creation as Firstborn of the New Man race of humanity for the Father's glory to indwell forever, on the regenerated earth; and the Holy Spirit; third Person, who is with us in this present creation -from the beginning- and who did not depart when the Father's glory departed at the fall.
~~~
That said: the "Great Commission" is the command to the Church still in effect until the Church is taken out -which commission is given to make fruit =sons of God for His glory to indwell, which the Father seeks from His"vineyard" and which He equips the Church to do by giving the enduement with power from on high until the Church is removed; and this is what Adam was made two original persons for, the male and female [Genesis 5:2], to multiply the godly seed =the sons of God for His indwelling in glory as His "house" not made with hands, who were created by YHWH in the loins of the firstborn, to be mothered through the "'ishyah", the Eve [Malachi 2:15].

That said: I care not if anyone speaks in tongues or not or seeks the best gifts of the Holy Spirit's gracious grantings; the point is that the Church is to make disciples and in the disciples the "Witness is "made strait =bound, and the Law is sealed; for the disciples of the LORD are born again and under the blood Covenant which ended the first death of separation of Spirit from the Father's glory, and the disciples the Church is to make are typed in the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies, which Moses received the heavenly pattern of to copy as a schoolmaster to teach us about the heavenly truths; and in the Ark the Witness is bound and the Law is sealed.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Only those born again in Spirit have the Witness =the Testimony made 'strait' and the "law sealed"; which is done by being generated New in Spirit as sons of God in the Living Spirit, joined, made one, in His Living Spirit, which is the Spirit of Adoption and New Generation for the adopted seed of Adam..

 

[Dispy]

Part 1

The church at Pentecost may not have fully grasped that the Gospel was for all yet, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't the church. There is no verse that speaks of mutliple churches or that implies that the church did not exist before Paul. There are not 2 gospels. The fact that every MAD I've ever met claims that the entire Bible with the exception of a few of Paul's letters doesn't apply to them in and of itself makes it heretical to me. You throw away all of Scripture and treat it as dirt. You teach that we should not baptise when Christ clearly sent us into the world to baptise.

Why did the Holy Spirit record for us as some of Christ's last words that we should go into all the world baptising people, if it really only meant to go to the Jews baptising them?

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

You make Christ a liar, you say that we should not baptise people of all nations. The MAD doctrine is silly, abberant, makes Christ a liar, and teaches false doctrine based on poor exegesis. There, you asked why I don't like it, start with that.

How in the world can you justify saying: "The church at Pentecost may not have fully grasped that the Gospel was for all yet." At Pentecost, the disciples were speaking "...as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). Further, prior to Christ's return to heaven He had opened the understanding of the Scirptures to His disciples (Luke 24:45). Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy. So, it wasn't the Chruch, the Body of Christ that started at Pentecost, it was the Tribulation. The signs that Joel spoke of were begining to appear.

At Pentecost, there was still a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile at Pentecost. At the time of Pentecost if a Gentile wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Laws of Moses. Yes, there was only one Chruch at Pentecost, it was the Jewish Church. Those that were present at Pentecost worshiped in the synogogue.

EVERY mid-Acts dispy that I know believes the entire Bible and does not throw out any of it. However, we do not believe that all the Bible was written TO US, but we believe it is all FOR US; as Paul says in Romans 15:4. To state it simply, we believe that God gave His instructions in righteousness for the children of Israel through the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. That God gave His instructions in righteousness to members of the Body of Christ, through "...the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

You still have not shown me the Chruch, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction at Pentecost, or prior to the raising up of Saul/Paul.

In part two and three of what is to follow will be taken from the book Common Questions About the Grace Message, by Joel Finck. They will explain why we do not water baptize, and why the "so called" great commission, as originally stated, cannot be carried out in this dispensation of grace. These articales express my views, and I will defend them as if I had written them.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

 

[Dispy]

Part 2

From the book Common Questions About the Grace Message, by Joel Finck.

Question 9) WHY DO WE NOT WATER BAPTIZE?

Nowhere in Paul’s epistles do you ever find instructions for us to be water baptized. Many recognize that Paul was given revelation from the Lord and that in fact, he writes directly to the churches and the church leaders, Timothy and Titus and to the saints of the Body of Christ. Yet, does it not strike you as a little strange that if we are supposed to be water baptizing that Paul never tells us to do it. He never tells us how it is supposed to be done, how it should be carried out, who should be doing it, etc.

Why is this? True Christianity is a faith which involves an inward reality, not outward ritual. And yet even as we write this, the vast majority of Christendom, has reverted back to the rituals of the Law and the Jewish Kingdom program.

Israel was a sign nation. God revealed to the Jewish people many outward shows of their faith. These involved sacrifices, water rituals and ceremonial washings, certain meats and drinks, observance of days, etc. All of these being designed to teach certain truths to the nation Israel. As one examines God’s spiritual program for this dispensation, however, as it is revealed to the Apostle of the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul, it soon becomes evident that these outward, visible manifestations of Israel’s religion, do not belong to the Church the Body of Christ. Indeed, they have no place in the practice of our faith in this dispensation. Amazingly, many churches would agree. They would say, of course, we do not observe those Jewish rituals. We have instead our own Christian rituals that we do! Many fail to realize that the so-called Christian ordinances and rituals actually can be traced back to the Jewish program for the nation Israel.

I Corinthians 1:17 says, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” Water baptism is not a part of Paul’s commission. Later on we will discuss the Great Commission. One of the reasons many people teach that we should be water baptized is because it is a part of the Great Commission given to the Twelve Apostles. We will deal with that in depth later. But what we need to see here is the Apostle Peter and the other Eleven Apostles could not have said what Paul says here in I Corinthians 1, “Christ sent me not to baptize.” Peter would have been telling a lie if he had said this, because Christ did send him to baptize. “Go ye therefore, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). Paul was not operating under the commission given to the Twelve Apostles, and neither are we. That Commission was a Kingdom Commission.

Where did water baptism come from and who was the first person who practiced water baptism? Perhaps 99 out of 100 would answer, John the Baptist. He certainly sounds like one who would be the first to baptize. His name is John the Baptist (or “baptizer&#8221. Why was he called the baptizer? Was he doing something new? No, not at all. Hebrews 9:10 speaks of the “diverse washings” of the Old Testament tabernacle. In the Old Testament, every time you read of a washing at the door of the tabernacle, it is a “baptism”. For the word translated “washings” in Hebrews 9:10 is “baptizmos” or baptisms.

Baptisms did not begin with John the Baptist. He was just continuing that which had been practiced for hundreds of years.

Ephesians 4:3 says, “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body...”

This is the Body of Christ. Then, in verse 5, Paul continues, “There is One Lord, one faith, one baptism...” This verse has probably been more obscured by theologians than any verse in the Bible. It is not that they have never read it, but that they fail to grasp Paul’s point.

When we search the Scriptures we find that there are as many as twelve baptisms. Some of these are water baptisms of the Law, others are spiritual in nature. In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” Right here in this context we see three baptisms - water, Holy Spirit and fire.

Yet, Paul says there is one baptism! Did Paul not know the Scriptures? Of course he did, but Paul is speaking in the context of the Body of Christ and his conclusion is that while there are many baptisms in the Bible - twelve or more - only one of them pertains to us in this dispensation of the Grace of God. Which one do you suppose it is?

I Corinthians 12:12, 13 says, “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.”

Here is a spiritual baptism. This baptism has no water whatsoever. It is performed by the Holy Spirit of God. It happens the moment you believe the gospel of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. The Holy Spirit supernaturally baptizes you into the Body of Christ.

Another translation of the word “baptize” is the word “identify”, because that is what happens when we are saved. We become identified with Christ. What three things did we believe in order to be saved? His death, His burial and His resurrection. What three things are we identified with when we trust him? His death, His burial and His resurrection.

This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 6. Many a fundamentalist preacher is very adamant that this is not a water baptism. And yet, it seems as though by the time they dance all around the subject of baptism, they finally managed to squeeze a few drops of water out of Romans 6. Why is this? It is an attempt to prove a point which cannot be proven from Scripture. Romans 6:3, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ...” When you believed the gospel the Holy Spirit identified you with Christ. What happened then? “...as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?” You became identified with the death of Christ. What is so important about that? The Scripture says, “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Furthermore it says, “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). That is spiritual death as well as physical death. Because we are sinful, we must die. We must pay the penalty of sin with our life. But this is what the gospel is all about. Christ came and paid the penalty of sin by dying for us. Therefore, when you believe the gospel, you are baptized or identified with Jesus Christ, and therefore you are baptized into His death. This means you no longer must die spiritually for your sins, because His death is accounted to you. It now belongs to you. And you, therefore, have eternal life. This is the gospel message.

But not only are we identified with His death, verse 4 says, “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death.” This is the verse where many get the idea that believers should be dunked under water. They assume that since we are buried, we should, therefore, be put in a “watery grave.” But this not only misses the point, it actually totally destroys the meaning that Paul is trying to show. He is not saying you were buried in water. He says you were buried with Christ. His burial becomes your burial by virtue of your baptism into His death. Paul is building on that truth now. Not only are you identified with His death (you no longer have to die for your sins), but you are buried with Him as well.

What is the importance of the burial of Christ? First, it shows Christ really died. You do not bury people who are not dead. He was truly dead and therefore, He was buried. But it also pictures the putting away of sin. When Christ rose from that grave, our sins stayed buried. This is the imagery that God wants us to see. The fact that we are identified with His death relieves us from having to die for our sins. The fact that we are buried with Him means that those sins are done away with, and finally, weare identified with His resurrection, because of spiritual baptism!

Finally, verse 4 goes on to say, “...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Because of our identification with Christ, we now have the spiritual equipment by the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life. This is what spiritual baptism is all about.

Why would we trade all this for a water ceremony?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord

 

[Dispy]

Part 3

From the book Common Qustions about The Grace Message, by Joel Finck

Question 13) Aren’t we supposed to be carrying out the Great Commission?

To answer the question, let’s take a mental stroll through the Bible. From the fall of Adam and Eve until this present day, God has always sought the salvation of mankind. He has always provided some way for man to approach Him on His terms. Throughout the ages, God has even gone the extra step of commissioning certain individuals or groups to carry His message to the people of the earth so that they clearly understand just what God expects of them. Before the flood, Noah was commissioned as a preacher of righteousness. For 120 years, as he was building that ark, he proclaimed God’s righteousness to an increasingly sinful and wicked world.

After the flood, the world soon turned away from God once again. Mankind showed its rebellion against God by building a tower and a city to make a name for themselves. To this day we know the name of that tower - the Tower of Babel, the city of Babylon. At this point, God commissioned someone else to become a separate nation through whom He could reach these unbelieving Gentile nations. That person was Abram, soon to become Abraham. This nation, which eventually was known as the nation of Israel, inherited the commission to be a light to the other nations, to lead them to the true and living God. Here is how it was supposed to work: God promised the people of Israel that if they would obey His covenant, then He would be their God and they would be His people. As the nations round about Israel looked at the blessing of God falling upon this one nation, they would ask why they were so blessed? Then they would come and inquire, and Israel would point them to their God and say, “We’re blessed because we serve the living and true God.”

Let us give an Old Testament passage to illustrate how this was supposed to operate. This was God’s order for bringing the nations of the earth to Himself through Israel. We sometimes call this the Kingdom program or the prophetic program. We call it the prophetic program because it was revealed in the prophets. It was spoken of by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21). Isaiah 60:1-3, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.” Who is He talking about? In this context, He is referring to Zion. Zion is another name for Jerusalem, the capital city of the nation of Israel, in biblical times. In verse 3 we read, “And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.” God’s intention and plan was to bring Israel as a light to the nations and to lift her up on high so that the nations would see that light and so that kings would seek out the glory of God through Israel. This was how it was supposed to work. But unfortunately, many times, it did not work that way. Israel, as the centuries rolled on, failed to be the light that God wanted her to be. Israel, herself, slipped into apostasy. She slipped away from the truth of God’s word and God’s revelation to her. This was the condition that Christ found her in when He came to the earth as a babe in the manger. As our Lord ministered on the earth, His first commission to His apostles was not for them to go out unto all the world. In order for the world to be saved according to that kingdom or prophetic program through the nation of Israel, first Israel had to rise up as a great light. Israel herself was in great darkness when Christ came.

Notice how He first commissioned His apostles. Matthew 10:1-4: “And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbeaus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”

Verse 5, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ‘Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.’” We should ask the question, why not? Did not God love the Gentile nations at this time? Did not Christ desire to see them saved? Of course He did. But He was operating according to knowledge and understanding that God would bring His light to the nations through Israel. If Israel herself was lost, she first needed to come to the Lord, then Israel could be a light to the nations. This is why He says in verse 6, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” In Matthew 15 we see that this commission applied even to our Lord. Matthew 15:21 says, “Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts.” Notice that the Holy Spirit inspires the writer to show us this is a Gentile woman; a woman of Canaan. Why is that so important? Because of what the Lord is about to say. She comes with a request in verse 22: “She cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Does that sound like our loving, caring Lord? He does not even talk to her. Why does He do this?

Verse 25, ”Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” This is going from bad to worse it seems. The Lord knew His commission, didn’t He? He knew he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He knew that the nations could not be blessed until the children were filled. What children? The children of Israel. Let the children first be filled. But notice her faith in verse 27, “And she said, Truth, Lord.” Her answer shows that she understood the program under which she lived. She understood she did not have a claim on God’s blessings directly. She understood she did not have access to the glorious blessings that God promised to Israel. But then notice her statement of faith, “Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” She is saying in effect, Lord I don’t expect the direct blessing that you have promised to your children of Israel. I do not expect that. I just want a few leftovers. I just want a few crumbs. The Lord at that point saw her great faith and so He blessed her. Verse 28, “Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

You see that principle being well established that the nations are not to be blessed under this kingdom and prophetic program until Israel is first blessed. Once Israel was straightened out, then and only then, was the message to go out to the nations. Christ made this perfectly clear when He commissioned the twelve apostles. Luke 24:46, “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” Here is that same principle. Let the children first be filled. Acts 1:8, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnessesm unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” When Israel was filled, then the message could go on to the nations. The only problem was that Israel rejected the kingdom offer. This was a problem from our point of view. But was it a problem for God? Of course not. God had in His mind a plan by which He could reach the nations in spite of the stubbornness of Israel. He had a plan whereby the nations could hear His word and they would not have to come through Israel’s rising. Remember Isaiah 60:3 where God says the nations would come to the light of Israel’s rising. Now consider a contrast to that in Romans 11:11. Here the Apostle Paul draws a contrast between how God reaches the nations today as opposed to how the prophets spoke of Israel’s rising. Under the prophetic program, the kingdom program, the nations were to be reached through Israel’s rising. But in Romans 11:11 we read, “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? [Referring to Israel] God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” Do you see the difference? In Isaiah, the nations are to come through Israel’s rising. In Romans, the nations are blessed through Israel’s fall. How can that be? And how does that tie into the Great Commission?

God revealed his plan to reach the nations in spite of Israel through the Apostle Paul. God determined that if Israel would not go to the nations, He would temporarily by-pass that nation and go directly to the Gentiles. He chose a messenger by the name of Saul of Tarsus to become the great apostle of the Gentiles. When He did so, He temporarily suspended the Great Commission which was given to the Twelve. This leads to the next questions:

14) Where in Scripture do we ever find the Great Commission that was given to the Twelve being suspended?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!

P.S. If you wish to have a copy of the book that I copied from, I will sent you a copy AT MY EXPENSE. It obtain a copy, just e-mail me you mailing address and I will get it in the mail First Class. I PROMISE to keep that information confidential, and not send any other unrequested materials. This book might answer many other questions and belied'a that you have about MAD's.

The above offer is good to anyone who wishes a copy.

 

[franky67]

Thanks, Dispy

I had not heard of this particular belief, I am a little curious about the roots of your belief if you could.

Thanks, and God Bless you my brother

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jesus is "the Gospel": the Seed of the Woman =Zion above, as proclaimed in Genesis 3:15, now come in flesh of the second creation: and the day of His conception [the body prepared in the womb of the virgin for His indwelling forever] is the Day from which all in Adam are blessed, "backward and forward"; and that Day is the 24th day of the 9th month in the Hebrew Calendar -you need to learn about the Day from which we are blessed "backward and forward" from Haggai chapter 2 in the original Hebrew language. He came as Kinsman =Redeemer, and that Kinsman/Redeemer come in flesh is the Good News: the rest of the story is how He accomplished the Ransom and redemption.

Paul's companion, Luke, gave us the Witness of His coming as promised from the beginning, as Matthew, Mark and John did.
```
That said:MAD doctrine denies the new birth as recorded in Scripture and no one in the Old Testament was born again, but Enoch, only, who was born of the Spirit of Christ and taken away, and is the firstborn of the Spirit of Christ according to the biblical law of Kinsman, when the kinsman raises up his firstborn seed to the deceased brother's name; for Enoch received "garments of glory" and was thereby translated and taken to the city of God to dwell forever [but if you will read the book, you'll see that Enoch "was not", for God took him forward in time, for he saw the city filled with the redeemed and longed to go there, and was granted that desire -but "translated"- and apparently taken forward in time to dwell there, for no one dwelt there until the LORD came in human flesh as the Chief Cornerstone [second human being body prepared for His habitation] of Zion; which is that heavenly City of God which is our hope who are born again in Spirit and who are made part of that city: that is my opinion about the firstborn seed of Christ after study, and if someone studies the matter and has another opinion I am open to their opinions if they actually do study and know the subject matter -discussion from informed and understanding minds is always a pleasure.
~~~
That said: Jesus told us that among those born of women among men [of Adamkind -Jesus is Israelkind and Firstborn in Israelkind, the New human being], there was none greater than John the Baptist; but he that was least in the kingdom of God was greater than John. Yet; John was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb, in the same Spirit which empowered Elijah; yet neither John nor Elijah were born again in Spirit, though Abraham had the promise of the Spirit 'signed' in his name change, with the breath of Life added to his inner 'name' - "HA".
Before Jesus Christ ascended, leading captivity captive, Abraham -who had the promise and believed by faith, but not the actual new birth- had to descend to Sheol to the place prepared for the all the righteous to wait for the Day of Atonement, which Day ended the remembrance of Adam's transgression and put away the first death "in Adam" forever -for whosoever will.

Without the new birth in Spirit no man could ascend to the Father, and this is what the redemption is all about, by the Kinsman=Redeemer, who came to ransom the lost sons of God born in Adam and restore them in His name to sonship and the glory of the Father indwelling: He came to bring many sons to glory -whosoever will may come.
~~
That said: this is not about what any cessationist claims about the gifts of the Spirit for today, this is about the particular claim of those who follow the teachings of MAD and claim they follow only Paul, but who deny Paul's specific instructions to "do not forbid to speak in tongues" and to "seek earnestly the best gifts and rather to prophesy":
One is not honest to throw out all Scripture but what Paul wrote as "for them" to follow, and then to deny Paul's commands -is one?

Trinity is not in Scripture, either, but the Truth is YHWH is One Spirit, three Persons, seen in one similitude, or image, but unapproachable Light as to the Father, first Person, though seen in the Similitude of the Word, second Person; who is now come in second human being flesh creation as Firstborn of the New Man race of humanity for the Father's glory to indwell forever, on the regenerated earth; and the Holy Spirit; third Person, who is with us in this present creation -from the beginning- and who did not depart when the Father's glory departed at the fall.
~~~
That said: the "Great Commission" is the command to the Church still in effect until the Church is taken out -which commission is given to make fruit =sons of God for His glory to indwell, which the Father seeks from His"vineyard" and which He equips the Church to do by giving the enduement with power from on high until the Church is removed; and this is what Adam was made two original persons for, the male and female [Genesis 5:2], to multiply the godly seed =the sons of God for His indwelling in glory as His "house" not made with hands, who were created by YHWH in the loins of the firstborn, to be mothered through the "'ishyah", the Eve [Malachi 2:15].

That said: I care not if anyone speaks in tongues or not or seeks the best gifts of the Holy Spirit's gracious grantings; the point is that the Church is to make disciples and in the disciples the "Witness is "made strait =bound, and the Law is sealed; for the disciples of the LORD are born again and under the blood Covenant which ended the first death of separation of Spirit from the Father's glory, and the disciples the Church is to make are typed in the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies, which Moses received the heavenly pattern of to copy as a schoolmaster to teach us about the heavenly truths; and in the Ark the Witness is bound and the Law is sealed.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Only those born again in Spirit have the Witness =the Testimony made 'strait' and the "law sealed"; which is done by being generated New in Spirit as sons of God in the Living Spirit, joined, made one, in His Living Spirit, which is the Spirit of Adoption and New Generation for the adopted seed of Adam..

The New Birth:
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


And; as Christ is the "end", of the law, which means "the goal to come to", and as the law made no man "perfect", and as we must be "perfect", and as the High Priest of the heavenly Pattern who entered the Holy of Holies [which is the Secret or Oracle, or Pattern, of Zion above], in place of "Christ's Person", serving as "Firstborn", had to don the holy garments of priesthood to enter and remove them when he departed, and could not keep them on -for he served the pattern of heavenly things in Christ's place as an instructor: then the law indeed made no man perfect: for the patterns of the Spirit of Generation and body of Adoption which the High Priest wore, with the crown of glory added, was a symbol of the New Man who was to come, the Living Christ come in flesh as the True Mercy Seat, who covers all under His blood of Atonement, as the True Ark of the Covenant itself, by adoption in His Spirit;

"Perfection" is the New Birth of Spirit to which the law was not able to accomplish, but only showed the One Way of. So no one in the Old Testament was born again but by faith in the promise as we who are born again in spirit are also by faith "bone of His bone flesh of His flesh" -which is to come when our bodies are translated or regenerated in the New Man's image, truly "bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh".


Enter by the "Strait Gate", which is the only Way in.

The spirits of the just men who waited in Sheol before the Day of Atonement who ascended with Christ when He led captivity captive are made perfect in Spirit: they dwell in Zion above as born again in Spirit sons of God by adoption, waiting for the adoption body -the body of perfection- which they get when the LORD brings them with Him in the air to resurrect and regenerate their bodies from the elements of this creation.

MAD doctrine denies all this.

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Not of Adam;
Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

 

[Dispy]

Thanks, Dispy

I had not heard of this particular belief, I am a little curious about the roots of your belief if you could.

Thanks, and God Bless you my brother

The roots of what I believe are found in the Pauline Epistles.

If you study Ephesians 2 you will find that Paul speaks of three dispensation in that chapter alone. In 2:11, 12 he speaks of TIMES PAST: how things used to be.

In Verse 13he speaks ofBUT NOW:/b] how things are presently and that "the middle wall of partition" is now broken down.

In Verse 2 he speaks of AGES TO COME: when God will bring His purposes to fruition.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[franky67]

by dispy
Verse 5, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ‘Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.’” We should ask the question, why not? Did not God love the Gentile nations at this time? Did not Christ desire to see them saved? Of course He did. But He was operating according to knowledge and understanding that God would bring His light to the nations through Israel. If Israel herself was lost, she first needed to come to the Lord, then Israel could be a light to the nations. This is why He says in verse 6, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Later in Matthew, in chap 28 and Mark 16 Jesus told these same disciples to go into all the nations and make disciples and to baptize.

So to believe that Jesus wanted to wait until Israel got her act together before going to the gentiles just doesn't compute.

Just my take on it.

 

[Dispy]

Verse 5, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ‘Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.’” We should ask the question, why not? Did not God love the Gentile nations at this time? Did not Christ desire to see them saved? Of course He did. But He was operating according to knowledge and understanding that God would bring His light to the nations through Israel. If Israel herself was lost, she first needed to come to the Lord, then Israel could be a light to the nations. This is why He says in verse 6, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Later in Matthew, in chap 28 and Mark 16 Jesus told these same disciples to go into all the nations and make disciples and to baptize.

So to believe that Jesus wanted to wait until Israel got her act together before going to the gentiles just doesn't compute.

Just my take on it.[/FONT]

According to God's promise to Abram back in Genesis 12:1-3, the physical seed of Abram (Israel) was to be a blessing to all the families (nations) of the earth.

When Israel, as a nation rejected God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, there was no way that Israel as a nation could possibly be a blessing to the nations.

In Matthew 28 and Mark 16 we have the command for the "so called" great commission. In Acts 1:8 we have the order of that commission. (Believe me, it would take more then 12 disciples to reach the whole known world.)

When Jesus started His ministry back in Matthew 10:5,6, He commanded His disciples Go not in the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.

It just so happens that it was in Samaria that the 10 nothern "break away" tribes of Israel resided. Jesus and His disciples ministered in Judea, where the two southern tribes resided. Yes, Jesus at one time passed through Samaria, but He didn't go there for the purpose to minister to the Samaritians.

The other seep of John 10:16 are the "other sheep" that will some day come back to the fold.

Back to Acts 8:1 "...and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the utter most parts of the earth.

Why Jerusalem first? Because that is were the Jewish leaders were sitting in Moses' seat. Israel, as a nation, was to be the blessing to the nations. That could not happen if the leaders didn't believe that Jesus was the long promised Messiah. Judea, the land that Jesus and the 12 primarily ministered, had to believe also. Then on to Samaria where the "other sheep" would make Israel "one fold" again. From then on, the "so called" great commission could be fulfilled. The nations would now be in a position to be the blessing to all the families (nations) of the earth.

Because Israel, as a nation rejected their King and His kingdom, the fulfillment of the "so called" great commission must wait until a future date. It will happen at the end of the Tribulation period when Israel, as a nation, will recognize the One whom they had pierced.

Being Israel, as a nation, is temporarily blinded, she will stay in that set aside condition "...until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rms 11:25). And then all Israel will be saved as it is written vs. 26. "The fulness of the Gentiles will be come in" at the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. Then God will again deal with Israel as His chosen people. Then believing Israel will fulfill God's promise to Abram about his physical seed being a blessing to all the families (nations) of the earth.

Hope I haven't confused you.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[franky67]

Then believing Israel will fulfill God's promise to Abram about his physical seed being a blessing to all the families (nations) of the earth.

I believe the blessing to all the families of the earth has come through the seed of Abraham, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:16 says Christ is tha seed of Abraham to whom the promises are given.
Galatians 3:29
"If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's offspring, and heirs according to the promise."

 

[Dispy]

Then believing Israel will fulfill God's promise to Abram about his physical seed being a blessing to all the families (nations) of the earth.

I believe the blessing to all the families of the earth has come through the seed of Abraham, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:16 says Christ is tha seed of Abraham to whom the promises are given.
Galatians 3:29
"If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's offspring, and heirs according to the promise."

You are absolutely correct in saying that we are blessed through Abraham's seed Christ. However, it is not because Abraham physical seed Israel that we are blessed. We are blessed inspite of Israel's rejection of their King and His kingdom. Israel's glory is still future.

The promise of salvation/justification, since the fall of Adam, is based upon the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ.

The following is something I wrote some time ago on a different forum to show that the roots of all believer go all the way back to Abram/Abraham. Some of it may not be pertinate to what we have been discussing, but I will leave it in anyway.

The "roots" of ALL believers go back to Abram/Abraham.Read Romans 4:12, 13. "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcsion only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, WHILE HE HAD BEING YET UNCIRCUMICSED. For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or his seed, through the Law, but through the righteousness of FAITH.

Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became a Jew in the flesh.

The covenant to Abram was when he was still a Gentile and was unconditional. After his name was changed to Abraham and required to become a "Jew in the flesh" by being circumcised, the unconditional promise to Abram wasn't changed, but new conditions were added to receive the promise. Any Jew that refused to be circumcised, was "cut off from his people; he hath broken the covenant" (Genesis 17:14).

After Abram's name was changed to Abraham, he is no longer referred to as Abram, even when they are talking about the times in which he lived before his name was changed.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh (when he was still called Abram and prior to his name change and his
circumcision), hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul is speaking of the time in Genesis 15:5,6. Verse 2 identifies to who God is speaking is Abram. Abram was call a friend of the Lord and was declared righteous (justified/saved). Abram was justified/saved just as members of the Body of Christ are today. By FAITH ALONE and not by any deeds/works of the Law.

In contrast to this, James tells us in his Letter 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, a Jew in the flesh, at he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith.

So the roots of ALL BELIEVERS go back to Abram/Abraham and are called the children of God. Those that are the seed of Abram are saved by FAITH alone, just as members of the Body of Christ are today, and those that were required to perform deed/works of the Law were saved/justified by doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Read Galations in that light.

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH which was demonstrated by dong the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Chirst" am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justifiction comes from Chirst through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

All those that were saved/justified during the "dispensation of the Law" are saved by []b]FAITH [/b] demonstrated by doing what the deed/works of the Law required.

The Cross work of Christ is the root of ALL those that believe.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, and the formation of "the Body of Christ", There were different instructions addressed to Israel then to the Gentiles. If a Gentile wanted to serve the God of Israel, then the Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Chirst?

I will follow the instructions that God gave to Paul for members of the Body of Christ. I will not mix them with the instructions that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I believe the blessing to all the families of the earth has come through the seed of Abraham, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:16 says Christ is tha seed of Abraham to whom the promises are given.
Galatians 3:29
"If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's offspring, and heirs according to the promise."

Well, Abraham isn't my ancestor -supposedly, anyway, according to the flesh; But I am born of the same Spirit of Christ which He was promised and which by faith he had and which he has been perfected in since the Day of Atonement, when Jesus descended and ascended, taking Abraham and all the just men from Sheol to Mount Zion above, where all the justified now have citizenship in, and go to at death.

And we agree: the legal "Seed" is Christ, the LORD from heaven come in second human being creation flesh called Israel [Isaiah 49, for one but the theme is that Jacob was given the name of the New Man who was to come as a sign of the adoption to come, and which Jacob and heirs have by faith, being surnamed with the "New Man name"], and Israel is brother to Adam as to the human being flesh of New creation and legal Kinsman =Redeemer to Adam; legally, only, is he seed of Abraham.

 

[lightninboy]

I come here fresh from shutting up MADders over on Theology Online.

You want a piece of me?