MAD and Salvation

[Iosias]

Their salvation/justification was by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH,

So you believe in two ways of salvation? One by grace alone through faith alone and another which includes works. Am I correct in my deduction?

 

[Dispy]

So you believe in two ways of salvation? One by grace alone through faith alone and another which includes works. Am I correct in my deduction?

There is only one way for salvation today. In this dispensation one is saved by placing their FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ. There are not two seperate systems of salvation in operation today. All mankind, whether Jew or Gentle, are saved in the same manner.

Under the Law, one had to do the deed/works of the Law BY FAITH. The Law was only given to Israel. However, during that time, one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte). No one today is saved today by doing the deed/works of the Law BY FAITH.

Salvation, since the fall of man has always been on the basis of FAITH. FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There is only one way for salvation today. In this dispensation one is saved by placing their FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ. There are not two seperate systems of salvation in operation today. All mankind, whether Jew or Gentle, are saved in the same manner.

Under the Law, one had to do the deed/works of the Law BY FAITH. The Law was only given to Israel. However, during that time, one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte). No one today is saved today by doing the deed/works of the Law BY FAITH.

Salvation, since the fall of man has always been on the basis of FAITH. FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Fancy side stepping way to say you believe that God ordained many different ways to be saved!
that is not what 'dispensation' is about.


Funny, but Enoch wasn't a Jew and he walked with God and he was not, for God raptured Him: =laqach him. He pleased God and was translated. On what basis did Enoch receive eternal life?

In Mad doctrine; was Adam created 'saved"?
And why did Jesus call Abel righteous?
And why did Noah find grace in the eyes of the LORD?
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[SANCTIFICATIONdotCOM]

It is true that God "saved" people by grace and faith before the dispensation of grace was given. However, what is not true is to say that works had no part in anyone's "salvation" before the gospel of grace was instituted. "it is no more of works that it might be by grace (paraphrase)"

 

[yeshuasavedme]

It is true that God "saved" people by grace and faith before the dispensation of grace was given. However, what is not true is to say that works had no part in anyone's "salvation" before the gospel of grace was instituted. "it is no more of works that it might be by grace (paraphrase)"

No one of Israel entered heaven before the Atonement was offered and accepted, so how could they be saved by works?
Abraham was redeemed and Jacob was redeemed, and they were not Jews and they did nto keep the law.

The thief on the cross acknowledged Jesus as Messiah and asked to be remembered and was given eternal life.
Enoch was translated that he did not die and he was not a Jew.
Enoch was taken to his eternal home in the City of God. Abraham saw it afar off and waitied for it, and all the just men who waited in Sheol below were taken there by Christ when He ascended -so no one was "made perfect" by the law; no one entered the heavenly Zion by keeping law.

In fact, the Law was made for sinners and the keeping of the law showed that fact.

So how is one who kept the law able to enter into heavenly Zion, the home of the perfected in spirit saints? -By the Atonement of the Seed of the woman who was promised from Genesis 3:15, to come and undo the works of the serpent and crush his head.

Abraham was redeemed yet he had to wait in sheol below for the Day of Atonement when Christ descended and led captivity captive.

We believe and do works. they believed and did works. No one ever entered by works.

Jesus is the Gospel =the One Good News for all Adamkind.

Israel just got to act out the Way to the One New Man's City by their daily service before the LORD when the High Priest served as Christ and ministered in the temple of YHWH, which typed the heavenly Temple to which all born again Believers will go; both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Iosias]

There is only one way for salvation today.

I agree and yet I would affirm that there has only been one way of salvation and one gospel.

The Heidelberg Catechism teaches:

Question 19​

Q. From where do you know this?
A. From the holy gospel, which God Himself first revealed in Paradise.[1] Later, He had it proclaimed by the patriarchs[2] and prophets,[3] and foreshadowed by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law.[4] Finally, He had it fulfilled through His only Son.[5]
[1] Gen_3:15. [2] Gen_12:3; Gen_22:18; Gen_49:10. [3] Isa_53:1-12; Jer_23:5-6; Mic_7:18-20; Act_10:43; Heb_1:1. [4] Lev_1:7; Joh_5:46; Heb_10:1-10. [5] Rom_10:4; Gal_4:4-5; Col_2:17.

Question 61​

Q. Why do you say that you are righteous only by faith?
A. Not that I am acceptable to God on account of the worthiness of my faith, for only the satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ is my righteousness before God.[1] I can receive this righteousness and make it mine my own by faith only.[2]
[1] 1Co_1:30-31; 1Co_2:2. [2] Rom_10:10; 1Jo_5:10-12.

Question 62​

Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?
A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God's judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]
[1] Deu_27:26; Gal_3:10. [2] Isa_64:6.

Under the Law, one had to do the deed/works of the Law BY FAITH.

Gal 3:1-29 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

How do you reconcile your teaching with the clear teacing of Scripture that works are unable to save. Could you construct your position for me from Scripture?

Salvation, since the fall of man has always been on the basis of FAITH.

 

[SANCTIFICATIONdotCOM]

Hello AV1611,

Your last question: How do you reconcile your teaching with the clear teacing of Scripture that works are unable to save. Could you construct your position for me from Scripture?

The passage you are quoting is in Galations, the first of Paul's writings in the dispensation of grace. It would not be appropriate to use that passage and say that it has always been this way as it hasn't. In this present dispensation of grace it is completely by grace as Galatians clearly teaches.

Notice further though what Romans 11:6 says: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

 

[SANCTIFICATIONdotCOM]

Sir (yeshuasavedme), I am not quite sure where to even start as the comments are quite scattered.

However, I will say this; one of the three references to Abraham's justification references works: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (James 2:21)"

When James is writing (approximately 45AD), both the gospel of the circumcision is being preached to the Jews as the gospel of graces is being preahced to the Gentiles. This is clearly layed out in Galatians 2:1-9. James is writing "to the twelve tribes" who at this time are still following the law (Acts 15 [50AD], 21[58AD]).

Paul receives the dispensation of grace for Gentiles to "provoke the Jews to jealousy" (Romans 11). God does not require any Gentile to keep the law and customs as He did the Jews which is the backdrop of Galatians and Acts 15.

At the close of the book of Acts, we see in Ephesians 4 that there is now "one Lord, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM". At this time (about 63AD) there is no longer a gospel to the Jews which required water baptism and the customs in addition to believing, and a different gospel that did not include water baptism.... Now, there is one gospel for Jew and Gentile alike wherein Jew and Gentile alike is baptized (spiritually) into the body of Christ upon belieivng (1 Corinthians 12).

Furthermore, you reference the law in relation to several figures in pre-law time as proofs of your belief, but please realize i did not mention the law in my prior post from which you commented, i mentioned works.

Secondly, please note that the Bible should be understood chronologically which is hard to do when we pick and choose what scriptures we want to use to substantiate whatever view we hold to. When we read and interpret the bible chronologically, it is much easier to see the progression from faith-works to faith-alone. We all interpret chronologically when it comes to the law and grace (because of the cross), but we tend to forget this when we interpret the post-cross books.

 

[TheScottsMen]

So you believe in two ways of salvation? One by grace alone through faith alone and another which includes works. Am I correct in my deduction?

This is Arminian Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. Though, they will deny they are Arminians.

Man has always ben saved by faith, through grace, plus nothing. This is includes all past dispensations, including the Mosaic economy. The works that those under the Mosaic economy were required to perform, such as circumcision, sacrifices, etc.. were performed by the faithful out of their love for God and His Lordship.

This whole conversation goes back to the topic of lordship salvation and Arminians believing they can be "carnal" Christians, stay in sin, commit adultery, etc.. and still be called God's people. Don't get me wrong, those purchased by Christ blood will commit sins during their life, but the faithful will always return to God and consistently show God's grace by His upholding of our very being and our sanctification.
TSM

 

[Iosias]

In this present dispensation of grace it is completely by grace as Galatians clearly teaches.

Could you show me where Scripture teaches that salvation was by works under the Old Covenant?

Notice further though what Romans 11:6 says: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Is not the use of the phrase "no more" used not to imply that it once was by works but rather to say that savlation is no more of works in the same way an apple is no more an orange than a bananna is. If I have expressed myself clearly here.

 

[Tychicum]

Could you show me where Scripture teaches that salvation was by works under the Old Covenant?

It wasn't. It was by faith. But faith was by works.

If you miss the "works" step ... you were "without faith". Your works were instrumental to your faith. Works also kept you alive ... as if you broached the Law of Moses there was stern and swift judgement. Often death by stoning. If you did not offer the particular sacrifices as prescribed ... you were not of Israel. Just that simple.

Salvation was "of the Jews" ... it was a birth-rite and one was saved by birth. They were born into Israel. Israel was safe by keeping the Laws. Individuals could be cast out ... but by default those of God's chosen race were saved.

It was the Gentiles who were without hope.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(Eph 2:11-13)

The means to become an Israelite were available but there wasn't much for opportunity. There are but perhaps a handful examples in the Scriptures.

The Jews failed and did not bring the Gentiles into Israel ... they didn't even make serious attempts. It was against the Law for them to meet with Gentiles ...

Anyways ... that is ... under the Old Covenant only however.

That is why it is call that Testament (covenant) "OLD". The New made the Old ... old.

That was a "conditional covenant" and has been supplanted. It required the merit.

The Old Covenant ... the Law ... was "temporary".

If you do "this" ... God will do "that". It is so often repeated one would think the blind could see it.

If you honoured your mother and father .... you got to live long in the Land ... what land you might ask ...? The Promised Land.

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
(Exo 20:12)

Today the order is reversed ... we "do" because "He did" for us.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Such is the meaning of Grace ... It is ALL HIM and not us ...

This is a different "dispensation". You can't reconcile the Old and the New ... they contrast ... they are not the same ... if plain words are to mean anything ...

Paul called it "another gospel ..." to work in the old requirements into the new. And he placed a curse on those who do it ... Paul's anathema has never been repealed.

 

[Tychicum]

AV1611 perhaps you can show us why you believe that "Works" piece of the Law of Moses ... which was by defintion a "conditional covenant" ... was an optional exercize ...

 

[KarrieTex]

Fancy side stepping way to say you believe that God ordained many different ways to be saved!
that is not what 'dispensation' is about.


Funny, but Enoch wasn't a Jew and he walked with God and he was not, for God raptured Him: =laqach him. He pleased God and was translated. On what basis did Enoch receive eternal life?

In Mad doctrine; was Adam created 'saved"?
And why did Jesus call Abel righteous?
And why did Noah find grace in the eyes of the LORD?
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

You are talking about those born before God ordained Abraham as a Jew or as scripture says a Hebrew. AND you are also speaking about what was needed to do for salvation BEFORE Christ.

It would have been better to have spoken about the Thief on the cross then Enoch. For the Thief ont he cross did not do works at all. He was the opposite of that but he believed in Christ and Christ told him that he would be in Heaven with Him because of his faith in Christ.

Works is the outward sign of the inward change. It is the product of being the servant Christ called us to be. It does not save us. Even God Himself said BELIEVE in Him i.e Christ and you shall not perish.

 

[lightninboy]

This is Arminian Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. Though, they will deny they are Arminians.

Man has always ben saved by faith, through grace, plus nothing. This is includes all past dispensations, including the Mosaic economy. The works that those under the Mosaic economy were required to perform, such as circumcision, sacrifices, etc.. were performed by the faithful out of their love for God and His Lordship.

This whole conversation goes back to the topic of lordship salvation and Arminians believing they can be "carnal" Christians, stay in sin, commit adultery, etc.. and still be called God's people. Don't get me wrong, those purchased by Christ blood will commit sins during their life, but the faithful will always return to God and consistently show God's grace by His upholding of our very being and our sanctification.
TSM

TheScottsMen, greetings from South Dakota,

So your MAD beliefs run counter to the other MAD beliefs here?

 

[Tychicum]

You are talking about those born before God ordained Abraham as a Jew or as scripture says a Hebrew. AND you are also speaking about what was needed to do for salvation BEFORE Christ.

Don't forget to add that Abraham received his "covenant" ... which was unconditional ... 430 years BEFORE Israel received the Law Covenant ...

It would have been better to have spoken about the Thief on the cross then Enoch. For the Thief ont he cross did not do works at all. He was the opposite of that but he believed in Christ and Christ told him that he would be in Heaven with Him because of his faith in Christ.

Good points. Although the Law was still in effect at that time. Even Jesus kept the whole of the law. And perfectly I might add. Had to ...

Works is the outward sign of the inward change. It is the product of being the servant Christ called us to be. It does not save us. Even God Himself said BELIEVE in Him i.e Christ and you shall not perish.

Now you are talking about a post cross message. Post Pentecost by quite a few years message.

One NOT revealed (according to the Scriptures) until Paul as a matter of fact ... And that at the Jerusalem counsel which was several years after Paul's conversion ...

.

 

[TheScottsMen]

TheScottsMen, greetings from South Dakota,

So your MAD beliefs run counter to the other MAD beliefs here?

Very much. There is no set doctrine for Mid-Acts Dispensationalism other than the current dispensation began with the Apostle Paul. While the majority of the Mid-Acts Dispensatonalist are Arminians and following very closely in doctrine to those you have met on CF, there is a growing minority of MAB's that are sovereign grace in their soteriology, believe that water baptism is a sign of the seal, that the church takes part in the new covenant and is also the bride of Christ.

 

[lightninboy]

Calvinists are notorious for Lordship Salvation.

Does your theology have any Lordship Salvation catches?

Are you involved somehow with that Triangle Bible Church?

Explain how the works MADders are Arminian MADders more, please.

Got any silver bullets that convince Arminian MADders to become Calvinist MADders?

 

[TheScottsMen]

Calvinists are notorious for Lordship Salvation.

Does your theology have any Lordship Salvation catches?

I don't believe so?

Are you involved somehow with that Triangle Bible Church?

Never heard of them.

Explain how the works MADders are Arminian MADders more, please.

Man has the power in his dead state to accept or reject Jesus Christ. This is the Arminian position in a nutshell.

Got any silver bullets that convince Arminian MADders to become Calvinist MADders?

To be honest, I've never argued anyone into believing my position -- nor have I ever been argued into someone else's position. I don't believe personal theological changes happen like that. For example, I was ardently against the doctrines of grace (Calvinism) and argued with (or tried atleast) many of my calvinistic professors that their position was cruel and unbiblical! It wasn't until I picked up a book by Loraine Boettner called "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" that my soteriology view changed. After the countless hours of debates on the subject, all it took was 8 hours of reading to turn my world upside down!

 

[KarrieTex]

Don't forget to add that Abraham received his "covenant" ... which was unconditional ... 430 years BEFORE Israel received the Law Covenant ...

Good points. Although the Law was still in effect at that time. Even Jesus kept the whole of the law. And perfectly I might add. Had to ...

Now you are talking about a post cross message. Post Pentecost by quite a few years message.

One NOT revealed (according to the Scriptures) until Paul as a matter of fact ... And that at the Jerusalem counsel which was several years after Paul's conversion ...

.

Why must you take the Bible apart and pick at what you want to fit your thoughts?

The Bible in it's entirity is the Word of God and confirms and affirms itself continually.

 

[lightninboy]

TheScottsMen,

You know, that Triangle Bible Church in AV1611's thread?

http://www.trianglebiblechurch.org/

You talked like you maintained the website or something.

It is kind of impressive.