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"Macro" Evolution: Mules and Ring Species

OllieFranz

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I don't "live" in this forum. I only come check it out occasionally. So I don't know if this question has been covered. If it has, I apologize.

Many Creationists divide evolution into two parts.

"Micro"Evolution is the change within a species, which can be demonstrated, and can be artificially accelerated by the act of man. In fact, this is the basis of most animal husbandry, hybrid botany, and even breeding race horses and show dogs. Not only is this easily demonstrable, but there is an example of a man-guided breeding program in the Bible (Genesis 30).

"Macro" Evolution is the creation of new species. The Creationists claim that there is no evidence for "MacroEvolution," and reject it out of hand.

My question is what are mules? [Here I'm using the word "mule" in the generic sense. I mean not only mules proper (horse-donkey interbreeds) but also hinneys (donkey-horse interbreeds), as well as various combinations of other equines (e.g. horse-zebra) and also of non-equine interbreeds, such as the tiglon and the liger, etc. In each case, the parent animals appear to be related, but can only produce offspring together with difficulty, and the offspring are usually sterile.] Are they not evidence of the creation of new species through "macro" evolution? There was once a equine species that has split into horse, donkey, and zebra. There was once a panther species that split into tiger, lion, jaguar and leopard, etc.

And what about a Ring species? This occurs when a large population of a species starts spreading into new territory while still active in the the old territory. (It just becomes more spread out and more numerous.) and there is a large obstacle in the new territory, like a lake, a canyon or a mountain.

As the species continues to spread, the group on one side of the obstacle lose contact with the group on the other side. Both continue to interact (and interbreed) with the parent group at the bottom end of the obstacle. When the two groups finally meet up again at the opposite end of the obstacle, they can not interbreed, or they can, but produce mules. Each can freely interbreed with the group on the side of the obstacle they came from, and both side groups can freely interbreed with the parent group.

Are they still one species because of their common ancestry? Or because there is an unbroken chain of interbreeding? If the parent population were to be suddenly wiped out, would the remaining populations suddenly become separate species? Or are they an example in the real, modern, observable world, of "macro" evolution?
 

Delphiki

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Macro-evolution is neither the same as speciation nor a "new genus". It's simply the word used to describe when there has been enough evolution to cause a substantially noticeable change. I kind of wish the terms "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" were never coined in the first place, as they are the same thing, just over different lengths of time.

A mule is the sterile offspring of a donkey and a horse. A sterile offspring of two different species (which is extremely rare throughout nature) is commonly called a mutant or hybrid.
 
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Delphiki

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AV1611VET

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Macro-evolution is neither the same as speciation nor a "new genus".
So a new genus has never appeared throughout all of evolutionary history?

If a new genera do appear, what is the term that describes it?
 
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Delphiki

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So a new genus has never appeared throughout all of evolutionary history?

Of course they have.

If a new genera do appear, what is the term that describes it?

I'm not aware of a word for the process of the appearance of new genera, but it's not necessarily "macro-evolution". It might be considered an example of micro-evolution, though.

The difference between micro- and macro-evolution is pretty much the same as micro- and macroscopic. Micro is small enough to not be noticeable through casual observation, while macro is basically "big enough to see with the naked eye".
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm not aware of a word for the process of the appearance of new genera, but it's not necessarily "macro-evolution". It might be considered an example of micro-evolution, though.
Wow -- how am I supposed to interpret this college talk?
The difference between micro- and macro-evolution is pretty much the same as micro- and macroscopic.
No, it pretty much isn't.

Microevolution is a noun; microscopic is an adjective.

Microevolution is a process; microscopic is a state of existence -- a size.
 
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sfs

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Macro-evolution is neither the same as speciation nor a "new genus". It's simply the word used to describe when there has been enough evolution to cause a substantially noticeable change.
In one common scientific usage, "macroevolution" means any evolution at or above the level of speciation.
 
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Delphiki

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Microevolution is a noun; microscopic is an adjective.

Microevolution is a process; microscopic is a state of existence -- a size.

Well, duh. The full words are not the same. The prefixes "micro" and "macro" mean the same exact thing in both cases, so the difference in their scale is the same.... micro and macro. I recently started a whole thread on this, illustrating what macro-evolution is -- thank you for paying attention.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7536666/
 
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AV1611VET

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Well, duh. The full words are not the same. The prefixes "micro" and "macro" mean the same exact thing in both cases, so the difference in their scale is the same.... micro and macro. I recently started a whole thread on this, illustrating what macro-evolution is -- thank you for paying attention.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7536666/
In my opinion, that thread is a good representation of the difference between micro- and macro-, but a poor representation of evolution.

Technically, every time light is incremented by one hertz, it becomes a new color; and by the same token, every time an offspring is produced, it is a new species.

Just as "red" is a set of electromagnetic wavelengths from 630 - 750 nanometers in length, a "Homo sapiens" is a set of mutants from DNA[sub]then[/sub] to DNA[sub]now[/sub].

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Split Rock

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No, it's not -- it's the creation of a new genus.
While a new genus would be an example of macro-evolution most scientists would accept, some creationists would probably disagree with you. For example, many creationists would claim that tha Canidae (Canine) family are a "kind," and therefore the evolution of genera within the canines would be "micro-evolution."

Macro-evolution is neither the same as speciation nor a "new genus". It's simply the word used to describe when there has been enough evolution to cause a substantially noticeable change. I kind of wish the terms "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" were never coined in the first place, as they are the same thing, just over different lengths of time.
I don't think this is a common definition for either scientists or creationists. Micro-evolution usually includes "noticable" changes.
 
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OllieFranz

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Apparently we are all disagreeing where the distinction is between "micro" and "macro" evolution, which is silly since most of us agree that the distiction is arbitrary and meaningless (as are the prefixes themselves) -- just another attempt by the Creationists to hold on to their dislike of evolution in the face of the evidence.
 
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Delphiki

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In my opinion, that thread is a good representation of the difference between micro- and macro-, but a poor representation of evolution.

Technically, every time light is incremented by one hertz, it becomes a new color; and by the same token, every time an offspring is produced, it is a new species.

Just as "red" is a set of electromagnetic wavelengths from 630 - 750 nanometers in length, a "Homo sapiens" is a set of mutants from DNA[sub]then[/sub] to DNA[sub]now[/sub].

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're actually getting very close to getting it with that last part. Obviously, there is a lot of variation in Homo sapiens even with just the ones currently living on the planet. No one's DNA is the same (unless they were cloned like a Storm Trooper or something). The reason each individual is not considered a separate species, is because species is defined by whether the variation is so genetically different between two living things, that they cannot (normally) naturally produce fertile offspring.

In the text-color analogy, each color represents a generation, not a species. My parents are the same species as myself, with variation, as are my kids. If, say, my great*x grandkids were diverged to the point where they were no longer genetically compatible with my neighbors great*x grandkids, then they'd be considered different species from one another.

Also, with your comparison to light, you contradict yourself by saying that each whole increment in frequency is a new color, but that 630 - 750nm are all "red".
 
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AV1611VET

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For example, many creationists would claim that tha Canidae (Canine) family are a "kind," and therefore the evolution of genera within the canines would be "micro-evolution."
That's what I believe too.

Coyote → domestic dog → wolf → dingo are examples of microevolution.

And just FYI, the word 'genus' is Latin for guess what?
 
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AV1611VET

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-- just another attempt by the Creationists to hold on to their dislike of evolution in the face of the evidence.
So I can't accept why my Roundup isn't as effective as it was last year, without having to agree that we came from the jungle?

No, thanks.

Your all-or-ridicule attitude, which is prevalent with evolutionists, is showing.
 
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AV1611VET

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Also, with your comparison to light, you contradict yourself by saying that each whole increment in frequency is a new color, but that 630 - 750nm are all "red".
No, I didn't.

In the technical parlance, they are different 'shades' -- but in reality, they are indeed distinct and separate frequencies.

Apple red and cherry red are two different colors.

Yes, they are both red, but by distinction -- on the cladistic level -- they are two different colors as well.
 
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Split Rock

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That's what I believe too.

Coyote → domestic dog → wolf → dingo are examples of microevolution.
What about other members of the Canidae, such as:

Genus Cuon
Dhole, Cuon alpinus or Canis alpinus (also called Asian Wild Dog)

Genus Lycaon
African Wild Dog, Lycaon pictus (also called African Hunting Dog)

Genus Atelocynus
Short-eared Dog, Atelocynus microtis

Genus Cerdocyon
Crab-eating Fox, Cerdocyon thous

Genus Dusicyon †
Falklands Wolf, Dusicyon australis †

Genus Lycalopex (Pseudalopex)
Culpeo, Lycalopex culpaeus
Darwin's Fox, Lycalopex fulvipes
Argentine Grey Fox, Lycalopex griseus
Pampas Fox, Lycalopex gymnocercus
Sechura Fox, Lycalopex sechurae
Hoary Fox, Lycalopex vetulus

Genus Chrysocyon
Maned Wolf, Chrysocyon brachyurus

Genus Speothos
Bush Dog, Speothos venaticus

Or the true foxes?
Genus Vulpes
Arctic Fox, Vulpes lagopus
Red Fox, Vulpes vulpes (1 Ma to present)
Swift Fox, Vulpes velox
Kit Fox, Vulpes macrotis
Corsac Fox, Vulpes corsac
Cape Fox, Vulpes chama
Pale Fox, Vulpes pallida
Bengal Fox, Vulpes bengalensis
Tibetan Sand Fox, Vulpes ferrilata
Blanford's Fox, Vulpes cana
Rüppell's Fox, Vulpes rueppelli
Fennec Fox, Vulpes zerda

Genus Urocyon (2 Ma to present)
Gray Fox, Urocyon cinereoargenteus
Island Fox, Urocyon littoralis
Cozumel Fox, Urocyon sp.

Or these?

Genus Otocyon (probably a vulpine close to Urocyon)
Bat-eared Fox, Otocyon megalotis
Genus Nyctereutes
Raccoon Dog, Nyctereutes procyonoides

Or the huge numbers of extinct genera?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_family



And just FYI, the word 'genus' is Latin for guess what?
Did you know that "god" spelled backwards is "dog?"
 
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AV1611VET

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Delphiki

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No, I didn't.

In the technical parlance, they are different 'shades' -- but in reality, they are indeed distinct and separate frequencies.

Apple red and cherry red are two different colors.

Yes, they are both red, but by distinction -- on the cladistic level -- they are two different colors as well.

In this analogy, you and I are slightly different frequencies, but both "red".

We're different people with slightly differing DNA (when comparing to all other life), but are both still the same species.
 
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