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pittguy579 said:Well your arguments have the value of the dog poop in my back yard. a first grade could destroy you in a debate
Carry on. Your lack of logic is apparent with eah additional post
How do you meaure overall complexity? How do you measure which is more complex, our brains, the eyes of a hawk + it's flying ability, the sonar of a dolphin + it's swimminig ability.pittguy579 said:We are both
Yes, you keep mixing up terms. You keep mixing up complexity, capability, advancement etc, while all of those denote different properties and they are not necessarily comparable. Just saying they are is not much of an argument.Nothing is mixed up. It is clear we have more overall ability than any other creature. Any sense or ability that we lack physically can be made up for via intelligence and our intelligence allows us to build machines that surpass anything in the natural world and and actually put us ahead of them
I do not.I disagree.
If you say we are more complex, I can only think that you have figured out some overall measurement of complexity that allows us to structurally compare those three and many others and make a comparison an objective comparison. The biological community is probably very interested in your answer as well.
Yes, you keep mixing up terms.
To take an example, we may well be more capable than a dolphin, given that we can build things that simulate what dolphins do (somewhat). However, that is only the result of a complex brain. But even there we already get in a problem in comparing complexity, because the brain of a dolphin has to perform many tasks that we do not, for example determining place from it's sonar signals. How do we know that the brian of a dolphin is not more complex, but that the reason it hasn't got our cognitive ability is that the processes are used for other tasks. How do you compare the complexity of both brains? Complexity is not a function of capability, but a function of structure.
pittguy579 said:We can do everything a dolphin can do via our intelligence. The reverse is not true. That is the same thing for any other creature on earth. We may not have all of their innate abilities, but we can utilize intelligence to mimic or get the same results done because the bottom line is results/function is what is essential. With our intelligence, we can build systems that mimic and surpass anything found in nature and hence our abilities surpass those of any other creature.
But that is not equivalent to complexity, as I already explained.pittguy579 said:In terms of overall ability
Yes you do. I asked you to explain how you measure complexity, and you answer by saying ability. But ability and complexity are not the same thing. We are the best tool-users, true. But that doesn't even mean we have the best overall ability, and definitely isn't the equivalent of complexity. You do mix up terms, you do it in this very post.No I do not
But that doesn't mean we are the most complex. Again, you are mixing up complexity and ability.We can do everything a dolphin can do via our intelligence. The reverse is not true. That is the same thing for any other creature on earth. We may not have all of their innate abilities, but we can utilize intelligence to mimic or get the same results done because the bottom line is results/function is what is essential. With our intelligence, we can build systems that mimic and surpass anything found in nature and hence our abilities surpass those of any other creature.
]But that is not equivalent to complexity, as I already explained.
Yes you do. I asked you to explain how you measure complexity, and you answer by saying ability. But ability and complexity are not the same thing. We are the best tool-users, true. But that doesn't even mean we have the best overall ability, and definitely isn't the equivalent of complexity. You do mix up terms, you do it in this very post.
But that doesn't mean we are the most complex. Again, you are mixing up complexity and ability
And you are incorrect, as I and others have explained at length. What you say doesn't even hold in engineering, let alone in biology.pittguy579 said:It is equivalent, for all intents and purposes, as I have explained
No, we are the most capable. Complexity tells us something about structure, in this case the structural make-up of the brain. But how do you determine that the structure of our brain is more complex than the structure of the brain of a dolphin, especially when they have capabilities we lack and we have capabilities they lack, that are not comparable.If we have more overall ability than any other creature, then we are the most complex in terms of function
Yes, you are mixing up capable, advanced and complex, terms that are not interchangable.I am not mixing anything up
pittguy579 said:If we have more overall ability than any other creature, then we are the most complex in terms of function
And you are incorrect, as I and others have explained at length. What you say doesn't even hold in engineering, let alone in biology.
No, we are the most capable. Complexity tells us something about structure, in this case the structural make-up of the brain. But how do you determine that the structure of our brain is more complex than the structure of the brain of a dolphin, especially when they have capabilities we lack and we have capabilities they lack, that are not comparable.
Yes, you are mixing up capable, advanced and complex, terms that are not interchangable
No it doesn'tpittguy579 said:And I am correct. And it holds up
How have you measured that? Have you compared there structures?Our brains are clearly more complex and have more overall horsepower than a dolphin.
pittguy579 said:Our brains are clearly more complex and have more overall horsepower than a dolphin.
I've estimated the complexity of writing software before, and studied the complexity of data.Tomk80 said:This thread makes me curious. Does anyone have specific sources on how terms like complexity, capability etc are used in engineering and if there are objective measurements for them, how they are measured?
This is flat-out wrong. Cetacean brains are as complex as our own, and the largest brains on the planet belong to whales.pittguy579 said:Our brains are clearly more complex and have more overall horsepower than a dolphin.
They're not to my knowledge. Remember that engineering isn't really a science, and offers very little insight into science outside a very narrow view of materials and thermodynamics. This is coming from an ex engineer by the wayTomk80 said:This thread makes me curious. Does anyone have specific sources on how terms like complexity, capability etc are used in engineering and if there are objective measurements for them, how they are measured?
Pittguy says he is an engineer, but the way he uses the terms is contrary to the way I've ever heard other engineers or scientists talk about them, so having some sources esxplain their use would be cool.
This is flat-out wrong. Cetacean brains are as complex as our own, and the largest brains on the planet belong to whales.
Are you just guessing with this stuff, or are you making assumptions based on your bias about humans being superior to all other life
See, if we can agree on that, then why do you insist that by taking away, erosion has reduced complexity in the hunk of rock? The arch looks much more complex than a whole load of non-descript lump. Clearly, in the case of the rock, the same (bridging structure) has been achieved with less, hence output is greater relative to total mass of rock necessary. Don't you think? Complexity doesn't always mean more or larger, it means that interactions between parts are more subtle, more elegant, efficient, and yeah, generally achieving more with less.pittguy579 said:Size doesn't matter. Output does.
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