Lying on the forum

Ophiolite said:

the closest I can come to a lie was in omitting to truthfully tell a high pressure salesman that I was not making a decision today because I did not entirely trust what he was telling me.)

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But omitting information isn't a lie. Intentionally speaking false information is a lie, according to the definition.

I recently found myself in a similar situation with a high pressure salesman. It's easy for such a person to swindle someone into signing a form by:
1. Telling all the positives and omitting the negatives. This sets the person up to accept the hype.
2. Announcing an exorbitant price, and then reducing it by 30%. This causes a person to more readily accept the 2nd high price.
3. Telling the person they have to sign today, or else they don't get the discount. This sets up the victim for fear of missing out of an opportunity.
4. Maybe asking the victim a series of questions that require positive answers as a form of emotional agreement.
5. Perhaps trying to make the victim feel guilty about wasting all the time they spent on the presentation.
6. Finally warning the person they are missing out of their grand opportunity, to make them feel desperate.

Here's how I responded to all that: since I know that I frequently make emotional decisions I later regret, I held firmly to the "NO." He said "what will it take to get you to change your mind?" I said "absolutely nothing." He said, "what if the price was reduced further?" I said "not even then." (because I knew his price was way up there). He said "not even 1000" which was a ludicrous amount. I said "no price that you would accept." He then understood that not only was I firm in my "no," but that I was wise enough to speak about agreement. That ended the conversation.

I omitted the fact that I thought the price was exorbitant, even though they had good reasons for it. I omitted the fact that I thought they were manipulative, demanding, and deceptive. But the omissions weren't a lie. I simply said "no," meaning "I don't agree with you," and that was the truth. I wasn't being deceptive, I was being wise.

When it comes to high pressure salesmen, they rely on peoples' natural fear of rejection and desire for acceptance. They set people up for an emotional response. I learned early in life that an ultimatum like "sign now or else..." deserves a big fat NO.

I lost my driver license test because i didn't lie of what medication i was taking. Maybe it has something to do with aspergers also, i prefer to appear rude and ignore someone than to lie.

durangodawood said:

Yeah the pace of writing is so different from the pace of speaking. Plus written things endure in a much more obvious way compared to spoken things.

It would be an interesting "real life" world if you could play back for yourself video of everything you ever said to remind yourself how you lied over and over again. But thats basically what we have here in terms of writing.

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I agree with that. Comments in the forum are not spur of the moment. At least as far as I'm concerned. I rarely write something and then immediately hit Post. There's a lot of editing that goes on because I'm often making an argument so I'm very careful not to say something that I know to be wrong because I know that there may be quite a few people eager to prove me wrong. And the post is available to all and can be disected and requoted at any time. Get caught in a lie and your credibility is shot.

That very rarely happens in the world 'out there'. As you said, if there was a means to replay what you said in 'real life' then less people would lie.

One God and Father of All said:

Is a lie different than a falsehood?

I mean, is it not a lie to speak a falsehood?

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Only if you don't know any better.

Ophiolite said:

Psychologists tell us that the practice of lying is universal (or nearly so) amongst humans. They also tell us this practice begins at a very young age. Parents with toddlers, or with long memories of having had toddlers, may well be able to relate to that. However, the object of this thread is not to debate the truth of these assertions. For the purposes of this discussion I would like you to take these as true. I wish to discuss whether the practice of lying differs between participation in forums such as this and how it is practiced in "real life".

In the real world I periodically lie. I do not know to what extent my lying compares with human norms. Do I lie more frequently, or tell much bigger whoppers than the average human? I don't know. I like to think that my lying is less intensive than average, but I would like to think that wouldn't I? (I reviewed my interactions yesterday and the closest I can come to a lie was in omitting to truthfully tell a high pressure salesman that I was not making a decision today because I did not entirely trust what he was telling me.)

And finally I get to the point. I have, as far as I am able to recall, despite telling lies in the real world from time to time I have never told a lie on this forum, or on any other forum several of which I was active on for over a decade and a half. I find this odd and am uncertain as to what compels me to be scrupulously truthful online, but not elsewhere. I have some thoughts, but I would welcome suggestions as to what you think might be the cause. Also, if you feel comfortable doing so, comment on whether you have had similar experiences. And if any of you can identify an instance in any of my posts where I demonstrably lied that would be helpful, as it would remove the anomalous contrast.

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The necessity to conceal information ( or myself !)
does come up. I can't recall last time I plain lied.
I don't like to do,it.

On the forum i see no reason to ever lie.
It's kind of like cheating at solitaire , it would
spoil the game to just make things up.

Which btw, just making up " facts " is something
we see a lot of here.

I lie perhaps when someone I don't know well, in passing asks "how are you" because I don't feel like opening up to the person or having a long conversation with them. So I say "I'm good"

I might lie if a traffic officer pulls me over and asks "do you know how fast you were going". I'm not going to confess and get myself a costly ticket

Ophiolite said:

...despite telling lies in the real world from time to time I have never told a lie on this forum, or on any other forum several of which I was active on for over a decade and a half. I find this odd and am uncertain as to what compels me to be scrupulously truthful online, but not elsewhere.

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It is a matter of teleology. The purpose for which you come to CF is incompatible with lying. What would you say that purpose is?

Who lies on forums? Trolls, imposters, and the intellectually dishonest.* You are not a troll or an impostor, and as an agnostic intellectual dishonesty probably seldom becomes a problem on a religious forum. Intellectual dishonesty usually becomes a problem for those who feel they have a lot at stake, must defend a certain viewpoint, etc. You have no reason to lie.

From a different angle, why do you lie in real life? Probably for utility or convenience, and presumably there are not parallel situations on CF where lies would provide you with utility or convenience. On the other hand, if you lied for fun in real life then you would probably also lie on the forum.

* Edit: Those who engage the penal system are also vulnerable to lying (reporting posts, justifying behavior, etc.). This is all behind the scenes, so maybe it doesn't count.

I would think it would be the other way around.

Ophiolite said:

A lie is a deliberate, conscious act of deceit. I may have made statements that are incorrect, but have done so with the understanding that they were correct.

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The other interesting question here is whether anyone self-consciously lies in the midst of argument. One could claim that the telos of argument precludes lying, although I don't think that's correct. Yet to deliberately and consciously deceive in the midst of argument would seem to be exceptionally rare.

For example, someone could get backed into an intellectual corner and start making really dumb, desperate claims. Are they lying? I would say that they are lying because they know, upon reflection, that their desperate claims are false and yet they assert them anyway. But it is arguable that they are not lying if one conceives of a lie as an especially deliberate and conscious act.

(When I said above that "intellectual dishonesty" leads to lies, this is what I had in mind)

returntosender said:

I would think it would be the other way around.

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There's no challenge to a lie on a forum. No fun for you.

I have lied on this forum unfortunately....

I told people i hate cats.....

In fact i love them! Especially with fries!

returntosender said:

There's no challenge to a lie on a forum. No fun for you.

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There are examples of very elaborate "online" lies/hoaxes that were doubtless challenging. See, for example, Leo Taxil's Masonic Revelations.

A lie involves deception, and deep deception is almost always challenging.

zippy2006 said:

The other interesting question here is whether anyone self-consciously lies in the midst of argument. One could claim that the telos of argument precludes lying, although I don't think that's correct. Yet to deliberately and consciously deceive in the midst of argument would seem to be exceptionally rare.

For example, someone could get backed into an intellectual corner and start making really dumb, desperate claims. Are they lying? I would say that they are lying because they know, upon reflection, that their desperate claims are false and yet they assert them anyway. But it is arguable that they are not lying if one conceives of a lie as an especially deliberate and conscious act.

(When I said above that "intellectual dishonesty" leads to lies, this is what I had in mind)

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It's quite often the case that posts are a mixture of facts, claims and opinions. One surely never lies about one's own opinion. But I've seen a lot of claims that I know are not based on facts. 'I've been told that...' or 'I read somewhere that...' followed by '...therefore X must hold true'. Is that claim a lie? I don't think so. It's just based on hearsay. Or on a selected version of the truth.

And even facts themselves are slippery little devils. Some judicious cherry picking can change the meaning of an article or a statement completely. I think that's the closest we come to seeing a lie on the forum. When it's not so much a lie as someone disguising the truth. And that's very common.

Lost4words said:

I have lied on this forum unfortunately....

I told people i hate cats.....

In fact i love them! Especially with fries!

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You may be lying now stating you have never told a lie on this forum, but who knows.

Ophiolite said:

I have at half a dozen or so motives for participating in CF. Probably most are incompatible with lying, but not all. For example I enjoy the debating, the intellectual structuring of argument and counter argument. The pleasure in that is different from the satisfaction of reaching common agreement with ones opponent: in a debate the object is to win, in a debate/discussion the object is to reach mutual understanding, which might involve changes in or both's opinions, agreeing to disagree, etc. If it is viewed as pure debate then lying might assist in victory.

But then we have Estrid's viewpoint.

Her analogy is solitaire, my analogy is climbing Everest without oxygen. "It's kind of like cheating".
Aside for afficionados of mountaineering: I'm referring to climbs via either of the conventional routes, not to the more challenging routes, like the SW face.
The game element of debating would be reduced by using lies to "win".

Which made me think of the deliberate use of untruths for humorous effect. I hope @Lost4words will excuse me singling him out, but we all know he is not a dog. Therefore, is he lying? He is deliberately telling an untruth. However, he is not doing it in order to deceive, or rather it is a deception that the reader willingly joins in - the willing suspension of disbelief.

Many of us make posts where we make an untrue statement relying on context, a smiley face, or a statement to inform the reader it is not actually true.

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I am a highly intelligent corgi!! Why would i lie about that?!!!!

Ophiolite said:

I have at half a dozen or so motives for participating in CF. Probably most are incompatible with lying, but not all. For example I enjoy the debating, the intellectual structuring of argument and counter argument. The pleasure in that is different from the satisfaction of reaching common agreement with ones opponent: in a debate the object is to win, in a debate/discussion the object is to reach mutual understanding, which might involve changes in or both's opinions, agreeing to disagree, etc. If it is viewed as pure debate then lying might assist in victory.

But then we have Estrid's viewpoint.

Her analogy is solitaire, my analogy is climbing Everest without oxygen. "It's kind of like cheating".
Aside for afficionados of mountaineering: I'm referring to climbs via either of the conventional routes, not to the more challenging routes, like the SW face.
The game element of debating would be reduced by using lies to "win".

Which made me think of the deliberate use of untruths for humorous effect. I hope @Lost4words will excuse me singling him out, but we all know he is not a dog. Therefore, is he lying? He is deliberately telling an untruth. However, he is not doing it in order to deceive, or rather it is a deception that the reader willingly joins in - the willing suspension of disbelief.

Many of us make posts where we make an untrue statement relying on context, a smiley face, or a statement to inform the reader it is not actually true.

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I was just now thinking of the game factor in debate before I got to your post. Someone may tell a lie just to see if the other person catches it, or if they can be manipulated down a dead end path. But lying in a debate (to win) would be an empty victory, because its foundation is hot air.

Yet in real life, that's exactly how cult leaders get followers. They figure out how to deceive people by making bold claims that can't be substantiated, such as "an angel appeared to me and said..."

Ophiolite said:

I have at half a dozen or so motives for participating in CF. Probably most are incompatible with lying, but not all. For example I enjoy the debating, the intellectual structuring of argument and counter argument. The pleasure in that is different from the satisfaction of reaching common agreement with ones opponent: in a debate the object is to win, in a debate/discussion the object is to reach mutual understanding, which might involve changes in or both's opinions, agreeing to disagree, etc. If it is viewed as pure debate then lying might assist in victory.

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Sure, and then the question is, "Can one successfully cheat in a debate by lying?" In certainly small ways I suppose one could effectively cheat in a debate by lying, but I don't know that it would amount to large gains. For example, if one is giving false statistics that are crucial to the debate, then they will likely be asked to source their data. I think the lying would come in more subtle ways, like "playing dumb" or resorting to intellectual dishonesty when backed into a corner, as I spoke about earlier.

Ophiolite said:

Which made me think of the deliberate use of untruths for humorous effect. I hope @Lost4words will excuse me singling him out, but we all know he is not a dog. Therefore, is he lying? He is deliberately telling an untruth. However, he is not doing it in order to deceive, or rather it is a deception that the reader willingly joins in - the willing suspension of disbelief.

Many of us make posts where we make an untrue statement relying on context, a smiley face, or a statement to inform the reader it is not actually true.

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You are right, this is certainly not lying. For example, the earlier poster was mistaken when they claimed that using a handle other than your real name is lying. If there is no intent to deceive and no real possibility of deception, then one is not lying. (E.g. no one is tempted to believe that my real name is Zippy2006)