Lutheran's and Calvinism

[boswd]

Hi everyone, I was hoping you might be able to help me sort out of the difference's between the theology of lutheran's and Calvinism.
They seem to share some traits. Such as Predestination etc.

I was wondering how, from a Lutheran's view, they are similar and different when it comes to the TULIP,

thanks.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Lutherans would claim to not be as "radical" as Calvinists.

A good way to place Calvinism is between Luther and Zwingli, although Reformed theology today while primarily Calvinist does still possess some Zwinglism. This often happens in sacramental theology.

As far as TULIP Goes:
Total Depravity-we are in agreement here
Unconditional Election-Lutherans do not hold to the idea of double election, although many Calvinists today do not either. We do believe that God chooses and is the actor in salvation, but that he desires all to be saved, yet some do to their own sin are damned.
Limited Atonement-This to me is the greatest area of disagreement (is it to all Lutherans I would not say). But Lutherans believe that when the Bible says Christ died for all he indeed did and atoned for all sins, not just the sins of the elect. But only those who come to faith receive this gift of grace that is offered to all.
Irresistable Grace- Lutherans believe that Christians can reject God, the only choice of the human will is unfaith.
Perserverence of the Saints-similar to Irresistable Grace, you can reject coming to faith, you can also fall from your faith.

Lutherans might by this standard be 1.5 Calvinists. I think to get to fundamental differences from a Lutheran standpoint you should learn more about the Law/Gospel distinction, sacramental theology/means of grace, two kingdoms theory.

Pax

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

We also number our ten commandments differently.

Pax

 

[Tangible]

We also number our ten commandments differently.

What? Aren't there two kinds of coveting?

Bswd, the Lutheranism vs. Calvinism question comes up quite often. If you scan down the threads here, you'll find quite a few questions and answers.

Personally, I think it's a bad idea to set out to define Lutheranism in terms of the five points of Calvinism, but that's generally the first place these discussions tend to go. Lutheran doctrine comes at things from quite a different direction than Calvinism does, and though we tend to focus on the things that are common, or nearly common, the differences can be quite profound.

Here is a point-by-point explanation from the LCMS website, complete with scripture references. Here is a good general overview of what Lutherans believe.

The most profound difference between Lutheranism and Calvinism is IMO, Sacramentalism. While many Calvinists do practice infant baptism, the belief behind the practice is quite different. Lutherans are deeply Sacramental and are more like Catholics and Orthodox in this respect. We believe that God reaches out to us through Word and Sacrament - that God is the actor in Baptism and Communion and that he uses these means to deliver his grace and salvation to us.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

I think we cycle in a new calvinism thread about every four months. But hey, how should visitors know that.

Another important factor is that Lutheran Theology is built around the doctrine of faith alone, Calvinist Theology is built around the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God.

Both bodies confess both doctrines, but it is interesting how which one you hold as central helps mold the rest of your theology.

Pax

 

[boswd]

Thanks everyone for your responses, I guess my confusion is the Lutheran's understanding of Predestination (it seems rather identical to Calvins view) but at the same time reject Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election which if you reject those two then it contradicts Calvins interpretation of Predestination.

 

[Tangible]

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Predestination

Q. Would you explain the LCMS position on "predestined" in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1? If one is predestined to be adopted as a redeemed child of God, then does it follow that another is predestined to not be adopted and therefore damned?


A. The LCMS believes that Scripture clearly teaches (in passages such as those mentioned in your question) a predestination to salvation by God's grace in Jesus Christ alone. The LCMS does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation: God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4). Like so many teachings of Scripture (e.g., the Trinity, eternity, the two natures of Christ, the love of a holy God for rebellious sinners), this teaching seems contradictory and is incomprehensible to human reason. We believe it not because it "makes sense" to human reason, but because this is what we find taught in the pages of God's holy Word.

Also: Of the Election of Grace

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The most profound difference between Lutheranism and Calvinism is IMO, Sacramentalism. While many Calvinists do practice infant baptism, the belief behind the practice is quite different. Lutherans are deeply Sacramental and are more like Catholics and Orthodox in this respect. We believe that God reaches out to us through Word and Sacrament - that God is the actor in Baptism and Communion and that he uses these means to deliver his grace and salvation to us.

...A difference which results from their use of "Reason" when interpreting Scripture. For example: their denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist; logic says that since Christ ascended bodily into heaven, and resides there, his body and blood can not be in two (or more) different places at the same time.

 

[Tangible]

Relevant: CyberBrethren-A Lutheran Blog » Refuting Calvinist Claims that Luther Taught Double-Predestination

 

[LutheranandLonely]

Thanks everyone for your responses, I guess my confusion is the Lutheran's understanding of Predestination (it seems rather identical to Calvins view) but at the same time reject Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election which if you reject those two then it contradicts Calvins interpretation of Predestination.

Calvin and Zwingli could not understand Christ being physically in heaven where our creed says he is and in the elements after they have been consecrated. They will say Christ is really present, but only Spiritually. Lutherans hold that Christ's True Body and True blood are both present in, with and under the bread and wine. The word sacrament comes from the latin "Sacramentum" and the Greek "Mysterion" from which the English derive their word "Mystery" It is truly a Mystery that requires faith to hold.

In the sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion, God's word is applied to a visible element thus making them and efficient means of grace for the believer. Baptism is a one-time event to forgive us of original sin which was passed down from Adam and the Sacrament of the Altar delivers to us his forgiveness and healing for our sins which we confess and hear absolution.

As for Limited atonement, Calvin and Arminius both had it wrong. They mistake the word Foreknowledge and Foreordained. God does know what will happen, but he sent his Son to die for all sins in all men. The only sin not forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or a denial of Christ's work on the Cross. He knows that not all men will receive that news well.

 

[Dannawally]

Thanks everyone for your responses, I guess my confusion is the Lutheran's understanding of Predestination (it seems rather identical to Calvins view) but at the same time reject Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election which if you reject those two then it contradicts Calvins interpretation of Predestination.

This is exactly my confusion with Lutheranism. It seems they believe in predestination, which is an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty, but on the other hand they believe it is up to the individual to make the decision to repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness of sin. That seems like a contradiction to me. A Calvinist would say one is saved by faith, and faith itself is a gift of God (Eph 2:8&9). Verses like John 3:16 and 1Tim 2:3&4 refer to all "types" of people rather than every individual.

 

[BigNorsk]

A Calvinist might say he is saved by faith but he doesn't actually believe that. He believes he is saved by predestination. If you believe today, but are not predestined, you will not be saved.

The confusion comes in that the Calvinist makes predestination the foundation for understanding, the Lutheran makes the doctrine of justification the foundation. Everything for the Calvinist must be seen through predestination.

The confuses the biblical handling of predestination. The bible makes predestination a part of the gospel. It is used to give us assurance, to show how God saves us. It is not used as part of the law, to condemn people. The Calvinist makes predestination both the gospel and the law. The Lutheran only gospel.

Lutherans definitely do not teach that the person chooses God, they are completely reliant on God to save. Man does not save himself, he does not cooperate in his salvation, we are saved through and by Christ alone. The divergence is the Calvinist says God condemns us, the Lutheran says we condemn ourselves. The Calvinist says you cannot reject God, the Lutheran says you can.

 

[Chemnitz]

I don't think any Lutheran would say that we can decide to turn and repent, in fact, that is pretty much anathema to us.

It's true that a lot of Lutherans will sometimes use "choice" language, but they're wrong and being non-confessional when they do so.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I would note that although we may be numbered "1.5 Calvinists" according to the TULIP model, we still probably feel closer to Calvinists than Arminians, since the emphasis is always on what God does in salvation, and never on some 'free choice' that we supposedly make.

If, then, the emphasis in theology is on the relationship between God and the saved (ignored the so-called reprobate for the moment) we are in strong agreement. God chooses us for salvation, unconditionally. Our wills are not involved in becoming saved.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

This is exactly my confusion with Lutheranism. It seems they believe in predestination, which is an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty, but on the other hand they believe it is up to the individual to make the decision to repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness of sin. That seems like a contradiction to me. A Calvinist would say one is saved by faith, and faith itself is a gift of God (Eph 2:8&9). Verses like John 3:16 and 1Tim 2:3&4 refer to all "types" of people rather than every individual.

I don't know of any Lutherans who would speak of a 'decision' to repent. Repentance is a reaction of God's gracious working on our hearts, on the basis of the cross. We cannot repent without believing in his laws and in his faith, we cannot believe with grace, and we cannot receive grace by our own merit or will.

The trouble seems to be that you have experienced Lutheranism through a very Americanized, Pietistic form.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Also, Tangible and LutheranandLonely have already brought this up, but it needs to be said again and again:

The biggest difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism is our view of the sacraments. We both believe in infant baptism, but we believe that infant baptism actually is the grace of God that we talk about when we say 'by grace alone through faith alone,' not merely a covenant sign. And we, Lutherans, actually believe that Christ is physically and locally present in, with, through, and under the bread and the wine in Holy Communion, and that communion, being Christ himself, actually conveys his presence (and therefore either the forgiveness of sins or condemnation).

Baptism is therefore constitutive of the body of Christ and the church by defining the limits, and Holy Communion constitutive of the body of Christ and the church by defining the center.

 

[RadMan]

This is exactly my confusion with Lutheranism. It seems they believe in predestination, which is an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty, but on the other hand they believe it is up to the individual to make the decision to repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness of sin. That seems like a contradiction to me. A Calvinist would say one is saved by faith, and faith itself is a gift of God (Eph 2:8&9). Verses like John 3:16 and 1Tim 2:3&4 refer to all "types" of people rather than every individual.

Of Justification | The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod

Brief... Doctrinal Position: Justification - LCMS

 

[simonpeter]

The confusion comes in that the Calvinist makes predestination the foundation for understanding, the Lutheran makes the doctrine of justification the foundation. Everything for the Calvinist must be seen through predestination.

Since God created the world and is always in control, wouldn't it be logical to assume that he has foreordained every event, including every person's repentance, faith etc.? Naturally, predestination has to be the foundation for everything, including justification through faith.

 

[RadMan]

Since God created the world and is always in control, wouldn't it be logical to assume that he has foreordained every event, including every person's repentance, faith etc.? Naturally, predestination has to be the foundation for everything, including justification through faith.

Wow, we're robots! I didn't know that.

 

[simonpeter]

Lutherans definitely do not teach that the person chooses God, they are completely reliant on God to save. Man does not save himself, he does not cooperate in his salvation, we are saved through and by Christ alone. The divergence is the Calvinist says God condemns us, the Lutheran says we condemn ourselves. The Calvinist says you cannot reject God, the Lutheran says you can.

Wouldn't that imply man is more powerful than God?