Lutheran Liturgy/Divine Service History

[tampasteve]

I have been trying to research the history of the Lutheran liturgy, Divine Service, but I have not been able to find out too much other than it being based on the Pre-Tridentine Mass. I have participated in Mass at an ELCA, LCMS, and RCC and they are all strikingly similar. I understand that some of the prayers of the Pastor are different between the services, but is it merely a coincidence that the Nuvos Ordo Mass is so similar to the Lutheran Divine Service?

 

[Halbhh]

I have been trying to research the history of the Lutheran liturgy, Divine Service, but I have not been able to find out too much other than it being based on the Pre-Tridentine Mass. I have participated in Mass at an ELCA, LCMS, and RCC and they are all strikingly similar. I understand that some of the prayers of the Pastor are different between the services, but is it merely a coincidence that the Nuvos Ordo Mass is so similar to the Lutheran Divine Service?

Catholics in our Lutheran congregation have several (at least 3-4, maybe 5) told me the services are 'the same' or even 'identical', meaning to the local Catholic churches they also have attended. Myself having attended I think now 3 masses at local Catholic churches (if you count 1 instance of a confirmation mass), I agree that basically one could imagine one was in either church, with not much obvious difference. (I think I've attended in person 6 or 7 Catholic masses altogether in my life, but it's hard to keep track of how many I also watched through video.)

Not only is the liturgy the same as far as I can see, but also they are the same in tone and spirit usually also.



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I'd like to offer more of my view of these churches from a very neutral viewpoint. I did not grow up in either church, but have gotten to know a lot about both.

We remember the reformers were aiming to reform the Catholic Church, keeping most everything, and only putting aside the things not in accord with scripture in the reformers view that had crept in, such as the purchase of indulgences, infamously.

To reduce to the most key thing, it's like Martin Luther was saying (to simplify) in effect: Don't forget Ephesians 2:8-9.

(Note today the key part of this is resolved -- the Catholic church emphasizes that salvation is through grace from God as best I understand in their catechism. Lutherans aren't as a rule all ignoring Ephesians 2:10 either -- many don't ignore this verse. See? There is even a formal agreement on justification. So, today, it's just tradition to even be separate in my view, but also this isn't of great urgency either. Rather love is the crucial thing always.)

I'd like to also say that in my view now, after reading carefully some sections in the RCC catechism, that I think there are no potent and truly meaningful differences between the Lutheran and Catholic churches that I can find (remembering both large churches will have plenty of individuals doing whatever individual errors, of course). I do accept that those in Christ passed on could indeed be asked to pray for us, though I myself haven't yet felt I needed to, and can also find believers here alive in person I can ask if needed. There will always partisan people that will sometimes use sophisticated language to try to justify their judgements (but they do this not only against other denominations notice, but also against their own, tellingly). I'm never imagining that most people in any one church all agree about everything either! I mean it's as easy to pick out differences inside either church as compared to differences between them. I consider such efforts to emphasizes differences to be mostly just a work of man and not of God, but also, I don't think it's crucial to formally blend the churches. Rather, it's crucial to obey Christ and "love one another" as He commanded.

The people will blend, in brotherhood, if they are believers.

It doesn't even matter what a theologian writes in comparison to that.

 

[tampasteve]

Catholics in our Lutheran congregation have several (at least 3-4, maybe 5) told me the services are 'the same' or even 'identical', meaning to the local Catholic churches they also have attended. Myself having attended I think now 3 masses at local Catholic churches (if you count 1 instance of a confirmation mass), I agree that basically one could imagine one was in either church, with not much obvious difference. (I think I've attended in person 6 or 7 Catholic masses altogether in my life, but it's hard to keep track of how many I also watched through video.)

Not only is the liturgy the same as far as I can see, but also they are the same in tone and spirit usually also.

This is exactly my experience as well. I attended a RCC Mass weekly for 10 years (converted at one point) and have been going to a Lutheran Church frequently for 2 years now. Honestly, one could exchange the service for the other without noticing it other than in the RCC almost everyone makes the sign of the cross while in the Lutheran Church it is variable and not that popular it seems.

We remember the reformers were aiming to reform the Catholic Church, keeping most everything, and only putting aside the things not in accord with scripture in the reformers view that had crept in, such as the purchase of indulgences, infamously.

This, I think is important. As the Book of Concord states:

Article 1] Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among 2] us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. Nearly all the usual ceremonies are also preserved, save that the parts sung in Latin are interspersed here and there with German hymns, which have been added 3] to teach the people.​

I'd like to also say that in my view now, after reading carefully some sections in the RCC catechism, that I think there are no potent and truly meaningful differences between the Lutheran and Catholic churches that I can find (remembering both large churches will have plenty of individuals doing whatever individual errors, of course). I do accept that those in Christ passed on could indeed be asked to pray for us, though I myself haven't yet felt I needed to, and can also find believers here alive in person I can ask if needed. There will always partisan people that will sometimes use sophisticated language to try to justify their judgements (but they do this not only against other denominations notice, but also against their own, tellingly). I'm never imagining that most people in any one church all agree about everything either! I mean it's as easy to pick out differences inside either church as compared to differences between them. I consider such efforts to emphasizes differences to be mostly just a work of man and not of God, but also, I don't think it's crucial to formally blend the churches. Rather, it's crucial to obey Christ and "love one another" as He commanded.

The people will blend, in brotherhood, if they are believers.

It doesn't even matter what a theologian writes in comparison to that.

I think that overall I can agree with this. There are some important underlying theological differences, but in general the worship and beliefs are very similar. Probably the most important difference is the Papacy, obviously.

 

[tampasteve]

But this is why I find the similarity to the NO Roman Mass and the Lutheran Mass so interesting. It would seem one is borrowing from the other, or developed in light of the other. However, the Lutheran Mass says it came from the Pre-Tridentine Mass and the NO Mass is more or less an evolution of the Tridentine Mass. Very interesting, and not a lot of information to be found it seems.

The readings are the same or similar because of the Common Lectionary, but what of the actual Liturgy order?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Christ is Risen!

Essentially, we're all following a general order of a litany of prayers, readings, a sermon and then the Eucharist. Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Divine Liturgies also follow the same format. The common liturgy dates back at least to 150AD, where St. Justin Martyr wrote:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

But this is why I find the similarity to the NO Roman Mass and the Lutheran Mass so interesting. It would seem one is borrowing from the other, or developed in light of the other. However, the Lutheran Mass says it came from the Pre-Tridentine Mass and the NO Mass is more or less an evolution of the Tridentine Mass. Very interesting, and not a lot of information to be found it seems.

The readings are the same or similar because of the Common Lectionary, but what of the actual Liturgy order?

That is true for most congregations; however, those with the inclination to do so will have liturgies more reminicent of the pre-Trent format. The simplest of which would be Divine Service 3 in LSB or page 15 in the old TLH:

 

[ubicaritas]

The Lutheran Divine Service is descended from the Roman rite with very few differences. Even the traditional Anglican service is not based off the Roman rite, it's based off a much older rite called the Sarum rite which was much more modified than the Mass in the Lutheran liturgy (more Calvinist ideology and politics came into play in shaping the service).