Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Carson-Newman Collge in Jefferson City, TNkatieb2005 said:your birthday is the same day as minewhat college did you go to?
The beauty of the Lutheran Church is it doesn't get in your face. The Lutheran Church doesn't have an official, this is how you must believe, stance on predestination.Flipper said:Lutherans believe in predestination?
This refference comes from the first edition of Martin Luther's preface to the New Testament. Now mind you first of all that it was ONLY in the first edition, meaning that Luther decided to take it out, and secondly that there is no such thing as the "Innerrant Luther".orthedoxy said:Here is some more of Luther quote regarding scripture.
In a word, St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians, and St. Peter's first Epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and good for you to know, even though you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James' Epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to them; for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.
(Jacobs, ibid., 443-444)
Luther wanted it to be stressed, further that we aren't to get caught up in the works more than the Word of God, the message of Salvation. For this purpose there are certain books that expound this principle better than others. This was his way of educating the masses, for they weren't to well learned. This would avoid mass confusion.If I were ever compelled to make a choice, and had to dispense with either the works or the preaching of Christ, I would rather do without the works than the preaching; for the works are of no avail to me, whereas His words give life, as He himself declared.
Martin Luther, Preface to the New Testament (first edition only)
here is a jewish site that quotes Luthers workLotar said:A couple things.
1.) Quoting one sentence from Luther most likely completely takes it out of the context and changes the meaning of the sentence.
2.) If you have read any of Luther's works, you will see that he often writes in such a way to make points.
3.) No one denys that he did make some anti-semetic statements.
I'm really intrested to see your quote.Later in his life Luther changed his mind on the subject. I'm on my way out, but I'll find the quote later.
Lutherans believe in predestination and freewill. We are much closer to Calvinism than Arminianism.
can you show me from any of Luthers work that he never believed in double predestination?Quote:7. GOD'S ELECTION OF GRACE
We confess that those in this life who, through the Gospel, have been called, enlightened,
sanctified, and preserved in the true faith, have from eternity been elected according to
God's unmerited love to this adoption as His children, and have been chosen in Christ
"before the creation of the world" to be heirs of everlasting life. Therefore Christians can
and should be sure of their salvation, since God's promise is steadfast and His gracious
election to salvation stands firm. We reject the teaching that there is an eternal election to
damnation (double predestination) and that the offer of salvation which God makes
through the Gospel is not earnestly intended for all people. In faith we accept the teaching
of Scripture that those who are saved are saved by the grace of God alone, and that those
who are lost are lost because of their own unbelief and hardness of heart. See Rom. 8:26-
39, Eph. 1:3-6, 2 Thes. 2:13-14, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 1:12, Ezek. 33:11, Hos. 13:9.
http://www.evluthsyn.org/
Quote:10. We teach that conversion consists in this, that a man, having learned from the Law of God that he is a lost and condemned sinner, is brought to faith in the Gospel, which offers him forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation for the sake of Christ's vicarious satisfaction, Acts 11:21; Luke 24:46, 47; Acts 26:18.
11. All men, since the Fall, are dead in sins, Eph. 2:1-3, and inclined only to evil, Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Rom. 8:7. For this reason, and particularly because men regard the Gospel of Christ, crucified for the sins of the world, as foolishness, 1 Cor. 2:14, faith in the Gospel, or conversion to God, is neither wholly nor in the least part the work of man, but the work of God's grace and almighty power alone, Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8; 1:19; -- Jer. 31:18. Hence Scripture call the faith of men, or his conversion, a raising from the dead, Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12, a being born of God, John 1:12, 13, a new birth by the Gospel, 1 Pet, 1:23-25, a work of God like the creation of light at the creation of the world, 2 Cor. 4:6.
12. On the basis of these clear statements of the Holy Scriptures we reject every kind of synergism, that is, the doctrine that conversion is wrought not by the grace and power of God alone, but in part also by the co-operation of man himself, by man's right conduct, his right attitude, his right self-determination, his lesser guilt or less evil conduct as compared with others, his refraining from willful resistance, or anything else whereby man's conversion and salvation is taken out of the gracious hands of God and made to depend on what man does or leaves undone. For this refraining from willful resistance or from any kind of resistance is also solely a work of grace, which "changes unwilling into willing men," Ezek. 36:26; Phil. 2:13. We reject also the doctrine that man is able to decide for conversion through "powers imparted by grace," since this doctrine presupposes that before conversion man still possesses spiritual powers by which he can make the right use of such "powers imparted by grace."
13. On the other hand, we reject also the Calvinistic perversion of the doctrine of conversion, that is, the doctrine that God does not desire to convert and save all hearers of the Word, but only a portion of them. Many hearers of the Word indeed remain unconverted and are not saved, not because God does not earnestly desire their conversion and salvation, but solely because they stubbornly resist the gracious operation of the Holy Ghost, as Scripture teaches, Acts 7:51; Matt. 23:37; Acts 13:46.
14. As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it. From Scripture we know only this: A man owes his conversion and salvation, not to any lesser guilt or better conduct on his part, but solely to the grace of God. But any man's non-conversion is due to himself alone; it is the result of his obstinate resistance against the converting operation of the Holy Ghost. Hos. 13:9.
15. Our refusal to go beyond what is revealed in these two Scriptural truths is not "masked Calvinism" ("Crypto- Calvinism") but precisely the Scriptural teaching of the Lutheran Church as it is presented in detail in the Formula of Concord (Triglot, p. 1081, paragraphs 57-59, 60b, 62, 63; M. p. 716f.): "That one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again, etc. -- in these and similar questions Paul fixes a certain limit to us how far we should go, namely, that in the one part we should recognize God's judgment. For they are well-deserved penalties of sins when God so punished a land or nation for despising His Word that the punishment extends also to their posterity, as is to be seen in the Jews. And thereby God in some lands and persons exhibits His severity to those that are His in order to indicate what we all would have well deserved and would be worthy and worth, since we act wickedly in opposition to God's Word and often grieve the Holy Ghost sorely; in order that we may live in the fear of God and acknowledge and praise God's goodness, to the exclusion of, and contrary to, our merit in and with us, to whom He gives His Word and with whom He leaves it and whom He does not harden and reject...And this His righteous, well-deserved judgment He displays in some countries, nations and persons in order that, when we are placed alongside of them and compared with them (quam simillimi illis deprehensi, i.e., and found to be most similar to them), we may learn the more diligently to recognize and praise God's pure, unmerited grace in the vessels of mercy...When we proceed thus far in this article, we remain on the right way, as it is written, Hos. 13:9: `O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thy help.' However, as regards these things in this disputation which would soar too high and beyond these limits, we should with Paul place the finger upon our lips and remember and say, Rom. 9:20: `O man, who art thou that repliest against God?'" The Formula of Concord describes the mystery which confronts us here not as a mystery in man's heart (a "psychological" mystery), but teaches that, when we try to understand why "one is hardened, blinded, given over to a reprobate mind, while another, who is indeed in the same guilt, is converted again," we enter the domain of the unsearchable judgments of God and ways past finding out, which are not revealed to us in His Word, but which we shall know in eternal life. 1 Cor. 13:12.
16. Calvinists solve this mystery, which God has not revealed in His Word, by denying the universality of grace; synergists, by denying that salvation is by grace alone. Both solutions are utterly vicious, since they contradict Scripture and since every poor sinner stands in need of, and must cling to, both the unrestricted universal grace and the unrestricted "by grace alone," lest he despair and perish.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=569
I see point 12 contradicting point 13 if we are free to resist Gods grace then to remain in Christ is synergism.
If God only saves some and he saves unconditionaly wouldn't this be the same as limited atonement since he didn't plan on saving all?
Can you tell me who told you Luther changed his mind about praying to Mary?So? As I quoted above, he later came to believe that it was wrong to do so.
Was it okay? No it wasn't, and I never said it was. I am defending him because his actions were a product of the time. During his time he was critisized for being too nice to the Jews, now people critisize him for being anti-semetic. This is constantly brought up, like it proves that Luther was an evil man. He was just a man, and capable of sin, just like the rest of us.orthedoxy said:here is a jewish site that quotes Luthers work
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html
It seems whatever i quote you try to make an excuse for Luther.
Are you saying it was ok for Germans at that time to treat jews like that?
I'm searching for it online. I read it in a book, but my father is borrowing it at the moment.I'm really intrested to see your quote.
Correction, can you show me that he did?can you show me from any of Luthers work that he never believed in double predestination?
It's not exactly an easy to understand doctrine. Whoever is saved is saved solely by the work of God, and whoever is lost is lost because of the hardness of their own hearts. God wishes for everyone to be saved. If it seems contradictory, it is because of our inability to fully understand God.I see point 12 contradicting point 13 if we are free to resist Gods grace then to remain in Christ is synergism.
If God only saves some and he saves unconditionaly wouldn't this be the same as limited atonement since he didn't plan on saving all?
You have a notorious habit of not reading posts. I've quoted both Luther and the Augsburg Confessions, what else do you want?Can you tell me who told you Luther changed his mind about praying to Mary?
Lotar said:It's not exactly an easy to understand doctrine. Whoever is saved is saved solely by the work of God, and whoever is lost is lost because of the hardness of their own hearts. God wishes for everyone to be saved. If it seems contradictory, it is because of our inability to fully understand God.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?