Lutheran Beliefs

SobriaInebrietas · Dec 5, 2007

As far as criticisms/rejections of Calivinistic beliefs...

What is your understanding and postion regarding the five key principals of Calivinism: T(total depravity).U(unconditional election).L(limited atonement).I(irresistable grace).P(perserverance of the saints).

(Hint: the ones I have most reservations about are L. + I.)

Also, I know that Lutherans use the three solas, and I know what they are, but Calivinists use five: Where did the other two come from and why are they not mentioned in anything I have read so far? (they are "soli deo gloria" and "sola christos")

And also please forgive me if my reasoning skills aren't so excellent or even impaired at any point (no wonder I am having trouble with all of this!)...

Also, are there any good books out there or anything that I could look into that might help me with some of this?

Thanks!

filosofer · Dec 5, 2007

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Your reasoning skills are more than adequate!

Yes, the L and I are indeed problems Scripturally. Another problem is that many people/theologians will try to frame questions such that you are led to a specific answer, that may not be tenable when the question is framed Biblically.

[/font]

DaRev · Dec 5, 2007

SobriaInebrietas said:
As far as criticisms/rejections of Calivinistic beliefs...

What is your understanding and postion regarding the five key principals of Calivinism: T(total depravity).U(unconditional election).L(limited atonement).I(irresistable grace).P(perserverance of the saints).

(Hint: the ones I have most reservations about are L. + I.)

Also, I know that Lutherans use the three solas, and I know what they are, but Calivinists use five: Where did the other two come from and why are they not mentioned in anything I have read so far? (they are "soli deo gloria" and "sola christos")

And also please forgive me if my reasoning skills aren't so excellent or even impaired at any point (no wonder I am having trouble with all of this!)...

Also, are there any good books out there or anything that I could look into that might help me with some of this?

Thanks!

Simple answers...

As to the "solas", Lutherans do hold to all five. We are saved by grace alone (sola gratis) through faith alone (sola fides) on account of the works and merit of Christ alone (sola Christus). We also hold to Scripture alone (sola Scriptura) as the sole source and norm of teaching and practice. And we give God alone the glory (soli Deo gloria).

Lutherans do not hold to "limited atonement" (L) as described by the Reformed. As the Scriptures teach, Christ died for "the world", meaning all people, not just a select few. Those who are condemned are so by their own unbelief and rejection of the Gospel. God is never the cause of one's damnation. Because one is able to reject the Gospel, which is ours by God's grace, we believe that grace is also resistible, thus nullifying the "I" of TULIP. We also do not hold to "perseverence of the saints", a.k.a. "once saved always saved." Scripture is repleat with warnings of lost faith.

Unconditional election is a tough one. While the Scriptures do speak of the "elect" (those chosen by God for salvation from the foundation of the world), it does not speak of any being elected to damnation, which is the Reformed definition of unconditional election.

filosofer · Dec 5, 2007

DaRev said:
We also do not hold to "perseverence of the saints", a.k.a. "once saved always saved." Scripture is repleat with warnings of lost faith.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Here is another area in which it depends on the definition and context. There are places where Lutherans believe, teach, and confess "perseverance of the saints", but never in the context of "once saved always saved" nor unconditional election.

[/font]

DaRev · Dec 5, 2007

filosofer said:
Here is another area in which it depends on the definition and context. There are places where Lutherans believe, teach, and confess "perseverance of the saints", but never in the context of "once saved always saved" nor unconditional election.

Das ist wahr.

SobriaInebrietas · Dec 5, 2007

DaRev said:
Simple answers...

As to the "solas", Lutherans do hold to all five. We are saved by grace alone (sola gratis) through faith alone (sola fides) on account of the works and merit of Christ alone (sola Christus). We also hold to Scripture alone (sola Scriptura) as the sole source and norm of teaching and practice. And we give God alone the glory (soli Deo gloria).

Lutherans do not hold to "limited atonement" (L) as described by the Reformed. As the Scriptures teach, Christ died for "the world", meaning all people, not just a select few. Those who are condemned are so by their own unbelief and rejection of the Gospel. God is never the cause of one's damnation. Because one is able to reject the Gospel, which is ours by God's grace, we believe that grace is also resistible, thus nullifying the "I" of TULIP. We also do not hold to "perseverence of the saints", a.k.a. "once saved always saved." Scripture is repleat with warnings of lost faith.

Unconditional election is a tough one. While the Scriptures do speak of the "elect" (those chosen by God for salvation from the foundation of the world), it does not speak of any being elected to damnation, which is the Reformed definition of unconditional election.

Thanks for the clarification!

What I have from the beginning understood about "unconditional election" is: the saved are elected solely because of the grace and mercy of God, which is given freely without any conditions (unconditional) to be first met on my part - in other words - I have done and can do nothing to merit my salvation or earn my election... It wasn't until after I became a member of the RCUS that I realized that this doctrine includes the belief that on the other hand there are also those that are elected to damnation... While on the surface it makes "logical/intellectual" sense, I have not been able to quiet the feeling that this is all wrong and inconsistant with what the Bible says about Christ dying for the sins of the world!

I have tried to gloss over this for the sake of peace and getting along with everyone, I really hate stirring up trouble and disagreeing just to disagree... The more I have considered it and compared this to what the scriptures actually say, the less sense it makes to me...

I guess it follows that "limited atonement" and "irresistable grace" would fall apart after you take that away!

The problem is that I know the answers they will give to this "God's ways are beyond our understanding", "Taking away these truths makes God small and powerless, so they must be true even if they seem contradictory", "You are being deceived by false teachers!"... and yet when I release these beliefs I feel a heavy burden lifted off of me - I feel real hope and long to seek after Christ and read the Bible... Are these feelings decieving?

I feel so hopeful and dreadful at the same time... it is strange.

DaRev · Dec 5, 2007

One of the main problems with Reformed theology is that it's not centered in the Gospel, but rather on the sovereignty of God, which is a very Law driven theology. The Law is meant to terrify and crush us. That's one of it's purposes. It is also meant to turn us to the Gospel and to Christ and His cross. This is obviously what is happening to you. You are being terrified by the Law and driven to the cross of Christ and the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is indeed working in you.

BigNorsk · Dec 5, 2007

Lutherans are thoroughly monergistic if you run into that term. It is totally Christ and not due to anything or even any cooperation on our part.

Lutherans are sometime referred to as single predestination. We accept predestination of the saved because the bible teaches it. We don't make the logical jump to say therefore, if someone is damned that must be predestined too. Even Calvin saw it as too different types of predestination an active predestination to salvation and passive to damnation. Calvin was a lot closer to Luther than most Calvinists are today.

We see that the atonement is general.

And we see that certainly when God works as he has decided to, that his grace is resistable.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Notice a clear statement of the Lord's will, and yet it was Jerusalem that would not. A case of resistance. Now if God was working immediately, like he will be on the judgement day, then he is not resistable. If God were to say to you as you were in his presence fall down and worship, you would just as if he told the mountain to fly away into the ocean. For whatever reason, God has chosen not to work immediately, but to work through means, such as the Bible, or other Christians. And in that case, it is clear that God can be resisted, just as the people of old turned a deaf ear to God's message through the prophets and killed them.

We don't seem to lose our ablity to resist even when saved so instead of once saved always saved, you have were it appears believers leave and follow other gods, and even as believers we sin. Surely our sinning is not the will of God, yet we do it. So we can resist.

Many, such as Arminians confuse this ability to resist with free will. But resistance is not free will, we simply follow our nature. If we could do other than our nature, then we would have free will. If the orange tree produced tomatoes it would show free will, if it produces oranges it is simply following it's nature.

Marv

seajoy · Dec 5, 2007

Hi Sobria

I just wanted to welcome you to our neck of the woods. Keep asking questions.

seajoy

Jim47 · Dec 5, 2007

Growing up in rural farming community I was quite shocked to find so many different beliefs from conservative Lutheranism when I came upon CF. I was so niave to believe that everyone accepted what God wrote in the bible without trying to change itto some religion thay placed on a neat little book shelf, therefore

I am very thankful to have had The Lord send me to confessional Lutheran church at such a tender age. Frankly, I am not strong enough to live in this world without the comforts of God's promises, as written in the bible and so clearly taught in confessional Lutheran churches. My fervant prayer is that Lutheranism as we know it will remain until The Lord calls us all home, cause I would shudder to think that my grand children and their off spring should be deprived of the truthes of God's word as taught in my church.

RadMan · Dec 5, 2007

Jim47 said:
Growing up in rural farming community I was quite shocked to find so many different beliefs from conservative Lutheranism when I came upon CF. I was so niave to believe that everyone accepted what God wrote in the bible without trying to change itto some religion thay placed on a neat little book shelf, therefore

I am very thankful to have had The Lord send me to confessional Lutheran church at such a tender age. Frankly, I am not strong enough to live in this world without the comforts of God's promises, as written in the bible and so clearly taught in confessional Lutheran churches. My fervant prayer is that Lutheranism as we know it will remain until The Lord calls us all home, cause I would shudder to think that my grand children and their off spring should be deprived of the truthes of God's word as taught in my church.

KimLCMS · Dec 5, 2007

SobriaInebrietas said:
Thanks for the clarification!

What I have from the beginning understood about "unconditional election" is: the saved are elected solely because of the grace and mercy of God, which is given freely without any conditions (unconditional) to be first met on my part - in other words - I have done and can do nothing to merit my salvation or earn my election... It wasn't until after I became a member of the RCUS that I realized that this doctrine includes the belief that on the other hand there are also those that are elected to damnation... While on the surface it makes "logical/intellectual" sense, I have not been able to quiet the feeling that this is all wrong and inconsistant with what the Bible says about Christ dying for the sins of the world!

I have tried to gloss over this for the sake of peace and getting along with everyone, I really hate stirring up trouble and disagreeing just to disagree... The more I have considered it and compared this to what the scriptures actually say, the less sense it makes to me...

I guess it follows that "limited atonement" and "irresistable grace" would fall apart after you take that away!

The problem is that I know the answers they will give to this "God's ways are beyond our understanding", "Taking away these truths makes God small and powerless, so they must be true even if they seem contradictory", "You are being deceived by false teachers!"... and yet when I release these beliefs I feel a heavy burden lifted off of me - I feel real hope and long to seek after Christ and read the Bible... Are these feelings decieving?

I feel so hopeful and dreadful at the same time... it is strange.

I know what it is like to move from one mind set to another. The more you can learn the better and there are a lot of knowledgable people in the TCL. I pray that your questions will be answered and that your soul will soon be at peace.
Blessings to you!
Kim

NoMoreHopelessness · Dec 6, 2007

A good overview of the different views on the doctrine of election and a good description of the Lutheran view can be found at

www .issuesetc.org/resource/journals/v1n8.htm

There Don Matzat writes:

“Luther believed that divine election was the cause of our salvation. The doctrine was for the comfort of the believer. He wrote: "The human doctrine of free will and of our spiritual powers is futile. The matter (salvation) does not depend on our will but on God’s will and election."* Since salvation is totally of God’s doing, the doctrine of election comforts those who believe. We can say, "I belong to God! I have been chosen by God. I am one of his sheep!"
While accepting divine election, Luther refused to embrace the logical conclusions that led to an atonement limited to the elect and irresistible grace. He retained universal grace and man’s power to resist and reject the Gospel. For Luther, it was a mystery. Concerning investigating the doctrine he wrote: "we are not allowed to investigate, and even though you were to investigate much, yet you would never find out."

I think you would also like the daily devotions on the LCMS web site

www .lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=1066&devodate=12%2F6%2F2007

If you copy these URLs you have to delete the blank space I put after the "www" . I could not post the URLs as links.

filosofer · Dec 6, 2007

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Good links. The way to handle them is to use the following

[url = link]Name[ / url]

I put spaces between several components, take those out, and you have your link associated with a name.

[/font]

SobriaInebrietas · Dec 7, 2007

NoMoreHopelessness said:
A good overview of the different views on the doctrine of election and a good description of the Lutheran view can be found at

www .issuesetc.org/resource/journals/v1n8.htm

There Don Matzat writes:

Luther believed that divine election was the cause of our salvation. The doctrine was for the comfort of the believer. He wrote: "The human doctrine of free will and of our spiritual powers is futile. The matter (salvation) does not depend on our will but on Gods will and election."* Since salvation is totally of Gods doing, the doctrine of election comforts those who believe. We can say, "I belong to God! I have been chosen by God. I am one of his sheep!"
While accepting divine election, Luther refused to embrace the logical conclusions that led to an atonement limited to the elect and irresistible grace. He retained universal grace and mans power to resist and reject the Gospel. For Luther, it was a mystery. Concerning investigating the doctrine he wrote: "we are not allowed to investigate, and even though you were to investigate much, yet you would never find out."

I think you would also like the daily devotions on the LCMS web site

www .lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=1066&devodate=12%2F6%2F2007

If you copy these URLs you have to delete the blank space I put after the "www" . I could not post the URLs as links.

Thank you for the response and the link, which was very helpful!

I do appreciate the use of Scripture: I have been in it often daily and well into the night lately, but the more it is shared and the more I read it, the more clear it becomes and the easier it is to understand.

Links are good too though! Keep 'em coming! I need LOTS of resources.

CaliforniaJosiah · Dec 8, 2007

TULIP: A Response from Calvinism, Lutheranism and Arminianism

Calvinism has summarized its position in the famous acronym TULIP, and this serves as a useful way to approach the issue (being logical Calvinism is, if nothing else, easy to follow):

T: "total depravity"

Calvinism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

Arminianism: Man after the Fall can cooperate with Gods grace in conversion

Lutheranism: Agrees with Calvinism on total depravity

Relevant Bible passages: Romans 3:9-20; Gal. 3:22

U: "unconditional election"

Calvinism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation and the others (reprobates) for damnation.

Arminianism: Before the world was created, God foresaw those who would choose Him of their own free will and elected them to salvation

Lutheranism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.

Relevant Bible passages: Romans 9:11-13; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; Mat. 25:34, 41.

L: "limited atonement"

Calvinism: Jesus only died for the elect, objectively atoning for their sin, but he did not die for the sins of the reprobates.

Arminianism: Christ died to give all the possibility to be saved.

Lutheranism: Christs death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits.

Relevant Bible passages: John 1:29; 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 19.

I: "irresistable grace"

Calvinism: In all of God's outward actions (preaching, baptism, etc.) there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

Arminianism: God gives in His outward actions the same grace to all; this grace can be resisted by all.

Lutheranism: The question is not answerable; for the elect, grace will irresistably triumph, yet those who reject Christ have rejected that Grace; yet the grace is the same.

Relevant Bible passages: Eph. 2:1-10; Acts 13:48; James 1:13-15

P: "perseverance of the saints" ("once saved, always saved.")

Calvinism: Salvation cannot be lost.

Arminianism: Salvation can be lost through unrepentant sin and unbelief.

Lutheranism: Salvation can be lost through unbelief, but this legal warning does not cancel the Gospel promise of election

Relevant Bible passages: 1 Cor. 10:12. 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22.

I hope that helps.

- Josiah

.

DaRev · Dec 8, 2007

The opposite of TULIP is SCURF.

SobriaInebrietas · Dec 10, 2007

CaliforniaJosiah said:
TULIP: A Response from Calvinism, Lutheranism and Arminianism

Calvinism has summarized its position in the famous acronym TULIP, and this serves as a useful way to approach the issue (being logical Calvinism is, if nothing else, easy to follow):

T: "total depravity"

Calvinism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

Arminianism: Man after the Fall can cooperate with Gods grace in conversion

Lutheranism: Agrees with Calvinism on total depravity

Relevant Bible passages: Romans 3:9-20; Gal. 3:22

U: "unconditional election"

Calvinism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation and the others (reprobates) for damnation.

Arminianism: Before the world was created, God foresaw those who would choose Him of their own free will and elected them to salvation

Lutheranism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.

Relevant Bible passages: Romans 9:11-13; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; Mat. 25:34, 41.

L: "limited atonement"

Calvinism: Jesus only died for the elect, objectively atoning for their sin, but he did not die for the sins of the reprobates.

Arminianism: Christ died to give all the possibility to be saved.

Lutheranism: Christs death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits.

Relevant Bible passages: John 1:29; 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:14-15, 19.

I: "irresistable grace"

Calvinism: In all of God's outward actions (preaching, baptism, etc.) there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

Arminianism: God gives in His outward actions the same grace to all; this grace can be resisted by all.

Lutheranism: The question is not answerable; for the elect, grace will irresistably triumph, yet those who reject Christ have rejected that Grace; yet the grace is the same.

Relevant Bible passages: Eph. 2:1-10; Acts 13:48; James 1:13-15

P: "perseverance of the saints" ("once saved, always saved.")

Calvinism: Salvation cannot be lost.

Arminianism: Salvation can be lost through unrepentant sin and unbelief.

Lutheranism: Salvation can be lost through unbelief, but this legal warning does not cancel the Gospel promise of election

Relevant Bible passages: 1 Cor. 10:12. 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22.

I hope that helps.

- Josiah

.

Thank you, that does help! It's seems simple enough!

DaRev said:
The opposite of TULIP is SCURF.

What is SCURF, or what does that stand for?

DaRev · Dec 10, 2007

SobriaInebrietas said:
What is SCURF, or what does that stand for?

A simple comparison:

S.C.U.R.F.
Synergism- sinful corruption but there is something in man to do good.
Conditional Election-God predestined those whom He foresaw would remain steadfast in faith.
Unlimited Atonement- Christ died for all mankind
Resistible Grace- grace can be resisted by natural free will
Fall- man can fall from grace

T.U.L.I.P.
Total depravity- man has no free will in spiritual matters
Unconditional predestination- God elects some to heaven and some to hell
Limited atonement- Christ died only for the elect
Irresistible grace- man cannot resist Gods call
Perseverance in grace- "once saved, always saved"

Click to expand...

filosofer · Dec 10, 2007

DaRev said:
A simple comparison:

Synergism- sinful corruption but there is something in man to do good.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
A clarification on the S. The problem with Synergism is that the "do good" is only in reference to outward appearances of humans, not in relationship to God.

[/font]

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