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Luther, Bach and Mendelssohn

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CalvinOwen

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I am amazed more and more every day with the influence the Word of God has had on music. It seems especially apparent when the Word of God was freed during the Reformation. The impact of Luther's hymns and the hymns of other early Lutheran's on Bach seems incalculable. It seems almost everyone of Bach's Cantata's is a take on a Lutheran hymn and an entitre 1/3 based on hymns of Martin Luther himself. Of course this isn't too unusual seeing that Bach was reformed himself and a devout Lutheran.

Then to learn how Mendelssohn converted from Judiaism to become a Lutheran, and to be heavily influenced and inspired by both Bach and Luther is astonishing. I love the way Bach and Mendelssohn put "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" to music.

Of course Luther was inspired by the Psalm's themselves and the Word of God which encouraged congregational singing as opposed to the Medieval Roman Catholic chants performed only by the priests and the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy.

No wonder Mozart said he could learn from Bach, and it looks like he really did! But it is equally interesting to discover who Bach learned from and then in turn Who taught his teacher.
 

BWV 1080

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Yes, but unlike the organ-smashing Calvinists, Luther made only very modest changes in liturgical music (namely the German Chorale). He kept the Mass ordinary (even in latin) and held the Renaisance master polyphonist (and Catholic) Josquin De Prez as the ideal in sacred music, calling him "master of the notes, must do as he wishes; other composers must do as the notes wish." Music thrived in the Catholic church, from Chant to the organum of Leonin and Perotin through Machaut to the Renaisance polyphonists such as Palestrina and Josquin, so the "Roman Darkness" stereotype has little historical weight when it comes to music. I for one, will gladly take any Renaisance Mass setting over artless contemporary praise music.
 
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CalvinOwen

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BWV 1080 said:
Yes, but unlike the organ-smashing Calvinists, Luther made only very modest changes in liturgical music (namely the German Chorale). He kept the Mass ordinary (even in latin) and held the Renaisance master polyphonist (and Catholic) Josquin De Prez as the ideal in sacred music, calling him "master of the notes, must do as he wishes; other composers must do as the notes wish." Music thrived in the Catholic church, from Chant to the organum of Leonin and Perotin through Machaut to the Renaisance polyphonists such as Palestrina and Josquin, so the "Roman Darkness" stereotype has little historical weight when it comes to music. I for one, will gladly take any Renaisance Mass setting over artless contemporary praise music.
Ahhh c'mon, that's a little harsh isn't it? Some of the greatest hymns in our hymn books were composed by the Calvinists from Scotland, England and by our Calvinist Puritan fore-fathers.

Luther and the Calvinist's made great strides in the development of music in Western Civilization. It was wonderful how they brought music back to the common people by translating out of stuffy incomprehensible Latin chants into the common everyday language of the people. They also took the music out of the hands of the Catholic hierarchy and developed strong congregational singing that has brought us to the congretional singing we all love today. They stopped the repetitive heartless chants and composed gorgeous flowing music that the people fell in love with as they sang to God in each congregation.

Of course all this was a major influence on Bach who is my personal favorite. Bach composed over 200 Cantata's for his reformed lutheran church. He took the reformed Lutheran hymns that the people knew and loved and developed cantata's that the congregation could sing to in some of the most beautiful music known to man.

Luther and Bach were not out to destroy the Catholic Church though, only reform it from all it's superstitions, stuffy hierarchies and corruptions. That is why Bach composed the Mass in B Minor. He removed all the unbiblical Roman Catholic parts of the mass and used all of Luther's biblicly reformed mass into what has got to be one of the most gorgeous pieces ever composed. I will gladly take this reformed mass over any mass I have ever heard!
 
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BWV 1080

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CalvinOwen said:
Ahhh c'mon, that's a little harsh isn't it? Some of the greatest hymns in our hymn books were composed by the Calvinists from Scotland, England and by our Calvinist Puritan fore-fathers.

Luther and the Calvinist's made great strides in the development of music in Western Civilization. It was wonderful how they brought music back to the common people by translating out of stuffy incomprehensible Latin chants into the common everyday language of the people. They also took the music out of the hands of the Catholic hierarchy and developed strong congregational singing that has brought us to the congretional singing we all love today. They stopped the repetitive heartless chants and composed gorgeous flowing music that the people fell in love with as they sang to God in each congregation.

Of course all this was a major influence on Bach who is my personal favorite. Bach composed over 200 Cantata's for his reformed lutheran church. He took the reformed Lutheran hymns that the people knew and loved and developed cantata's that the congregation could sing to in some of the most beautiful music known to man.

Luther and Bach were not out to destroy the Catholic Church though, only reform it from all it's superstitions, stuffy hierarchies and corruptions. That is why Bach composed the Mass in B Minor. He removed all the unbiblical Roman Catholic parts of the mass and used all of Luther's biblicly reformed mass into what has got to be one of the most gorgeous pieces ever composed. I will gladly take this reformed mass over any mass I have ever heard!
How can you put Luther and the Calvinists in the same camp? The 16th century Calvinists in Holland and Switzerland destroyed organs and banned all singing save for monodic psalm settings. Name me one devout reformed composer (i.e. Calvinist - not Lutheran or Anglican) of note.

Bach did not remove any "unbiblical Roman Catholic parts" from his Mass. The text is the full Roman Catholic Mass (in Latin no less). After all it was dedicated to Augustus III, Elector of Saxony and a Roman Catholic, with whom Bach wished to curry favor.

While your Catholic stereotypes are amusing, the Reformation was not black and white issue in music (or anything else for that matter). The Catholic tradition was incredibly rich prior to Luther (just listen to Josquin or Ockeghem) and continued to produce great sacred music up to this day including Byrd, Haydn's Masses and Oratorios, Schubert's Ave Maria, Bruckner, Liszt (who was affiliated later in life with a Franciscan order), Messiaen & Wourinen too name a few.
 
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CalvinOwen

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BWV 1080 said:
How can you put Luther and the Calvinists in the same camp? The 16th century Calvinists in Holland and Switzerland destroyed organs and banned all singing save for monodic psalm settings. Name me one devout reformed composer (i.e. Calvinist - not Lutheran or Anglican) of note.
Luther and Calvinist's are in the same camp. The both were very instrumental in the success of the Reformation and they both believed many of the same essential reformed Christian doctrines. I can name you 3 very famous Calvinist composer's just off the top of my head the hymns of which the entire world has affectionately embraced and I'm sure you yourself have sung;

Joachim Neander

He is accounted the principal Calvinist poet in Germany, but only a few of his hymns are known in English. The best-known is "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation" (Lobe den Herren, den maechtigen Koenig der Ehren!), based on Psalms 150 and 103:1-6.

Isaac Watts

Watts wrote over 600 hymns, and many of them continue to be used by English-speaking Christians

Benjamin Franklin first published Watts' psalm paraphrases in America in 1729. Franklin was not the only American publisher to take an interest in Watt's hymns. In Boston his hymns were published in 1739. They were well-loved by Americans of the Revolutionary period.

O (Our) God, our help in ages past
Joy to the world! The Lord is come
Jesus shall reign where'er the sun
From all that dwell below the skies
When I survey the wondrous cross
Alas, and did my Savior bleed
This is the day the Lord hath made
I'll praise my maker while I've breath
I sing th'Almighty Pow'r of God
Come, we that love the Lord
My Shepherd will supply my need

John Newton

Wrote the world famous hymn “Amazing Grace.”

His voluminous work of The Olney Hymns are divided into three books:
  • On Select Passages of Scripture
  • On Occasional Subjects
  • On the Rise, Progress, Changes and Comforts of the Spiritual Life
Newton is very specific as to the function of Hymns' contents by stating in the preface,

“They should be Hymns, not Odes, if designed for public worship, and for the use of plain people. Perspicuity, simplicity and ease, should be chiefly attended to; and the imagery and coloring of poetry, if admitted at all, should be indulged very sparingly and with great judgement.”
 
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CalvinOwen

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BWV 1080 said:
Bach did not remove any "unbiblical Roman Catholic parts" from his Mass. The text is the full Roman Catholic Mass (in Latin no less). After all it was dedicated to Augustus III, Elector of Saxony and a Roman Catholic, with whom Bach wished to curry favor.
Bach sure did and Augustus III, Elector of Saxony was heavily criticized for his criticisim of the Roman Catholic doctrine that salvation can only be found in the Roman Catholic Church. As a matter of fact Friedrich August II, Elector of Saxony was a man who had converted to the Roman faith (abandoning his wife who would not convert) so that he might become eligible to assume the throne of Poland.

Bach’s Mass was also unusable in the Catholic rite not only on account of its departure from the prescriptive Latin text, but also, and in particular, because of the liturgically impermissible layout of the closing sections.

Philipp Spitta wrote that “Wherever the Protestant liturgy required it , Bach has deviated from the main lines of the Catholic mass…It was his (Bach’s) vocation to produce the most thoroughly objective-because the latest-the purest and most glorified image of the spirit of the reformed church of the great epoch in his B minor mass.” Spitta then goes on for 20 pages revealing point by point how the Mass in B Minor deviated from the Roman Catholic Mass as the Protestant liturgy required it.

The Lutheran Church never abolished the Ordinary of the Mass and the Latin version of the Ordinary. On many places it was customary to sing the Ordinary in Latin. Except for the Credo all of them were always or occasionally sung in Latin. The same practice was observed in Leipzig, where it was customary to sing the Kyrie and Gloria in Latin, sometimes also the Sanctus.


Scholars such as Günther Stiller point out that the Lutheran church did retain the Latin liturgical texts shortly after the Reformation, and a combination of German and Latin were used through Bach's time. In fact, Günther Stiller reports that the Leipzig agendas contained four different Latin Gloria intonations. The choir thus sang responses in Latin, and especially during festival and feast days. Thus, a more "religious" tone was achieved during important church seasons. While German was used in many parts of the service of Word and Sacrament, the choir continued with Latin responses such as the "Gloria in excelsis Deo," "Et in terra pax," and "Et cum sancto spiritu tuo" etc. Also, and most notably, the Lutheran priest was to continue to intone the "Credo in unum Deum" in Latin at the altar. Not until the beginning of the 19th century was this instructed to be performed in the vernacular.


Also, Bach wrote all his other masses in Latin. These masses were all written during his time in Leipzig and most likely used there, as they were short. There were about six. The Mass in F is used a Protestant chorale in it. Bach's Magnificat (BWV 243) was definately written and performed for Leipzig and it is in Latin. His various Sanctus were written in Latin, and most likely used in Leipzig. Bach's remaining Lutheran Church Masses were all in Latin as were his Magnificat, etc. In Bach's instance, Latin doesn't necessarily equate to Catholic. The Catholic Church used Latin at the time to be sure, but the Lutheran Churches used both German and Latin. Also, the older sacred music from other great (Latin) sacred composers was used by Bach and his choir in the Lutheran churches. For the Lutheran Thomas Cantor Bach, it seems, "Mass" always meant "in Latin."
 
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CalvinOwen

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BWV 1080 said:
The Catholic tradition was incredibly rich prior to Luther (just listen to Josquin or Ockeghem) and continued to produce great sacred music up to this day including Byrd, Haydn's Masses and Oratorios, Schubert's Ave Maria, Bruckner, Liszt (who was affiliated later in life with a Franciscan order), Messiaen & Wourinen too name a few.
Haydn was heavily influenced by the protestant Emmanuel Bach and the reform of Church music instituted by Pope Pius X equivalently debarred them from use at liturgical services, in some instances on account of the alterations and repetitions effected in the text, and in others because of the operatic character of the music itself. I guess it wasn't "chant-like" enough.

Franz Peter Schubert, born 1797, died 1828, the Austrian composer. He wrote two Masses and a large amount of other Catholic music, yet like Beethoven and Mozart, he was a skeptic. In his Dictionory of Music, Sir George Grove says that "of formal or dogmatic religion we can find no trace" in his life. That's in Volume IV, page 634. He quotes Schubert saying of creeds and churches, "Not a word of it is true." Also, one can read Elly Ziese in Shubert's Tod. There it is noted that Catholic biographers say that the man who wrote the beautiful Ave Maria must have been a Catholic, although "he has no external connection with the Church." One might as well say that all the artists who painted beautiful Venuses must have believed in the goddess Venus. Perhaps the answer is that only the religious art form was accepted, or acceptable, at that time.

Liszt was an omnivorous reader. He explored the heights and depths of literature. He plodded over the stony roads and wayless wildernesses of science, history, and philosophy, and loitered on the flowery paths of poetry and romance. Chateaubriand was probably the first author (excepting devotional writers) who made a deep impression upon him. ‘René’ (the detached episode of this author’s ‘Le Génie du Christianisme’), which has been called the French Werther, held him for a long time enthralled. Lamartine and Victor Hugo exercised a lasting influence over him, a fact which declares itself openly in his musical works: that of the former in the ‘Harmonies poétiques et religieuses’ and ‘Les Préludes,’ that of the latter in ‘Mazeppa’ and ‘Ce qu-on entend sur la Montagne.’ With these two poets Liszt, who had more or less intercourse with almost all the distinguished authors and artists living at Paris, was also personally acquainted. George Sand became a most intimate friend of his. Very characteristic of the man is the interest with which he studied and the enthusiasm with which he to a great extent adopted the socialistic, religious, philosophical, socio-religious, and socio-philosophical systems of his time, as set forth, for instance, in Saint-Simon’s ‘Nouveau Christianisme,’ Ballanche’s ‘Essai sur les institutions sociales,’ Fourier’s ‘Traité de l’association domestique-agricole,’ and Lamennais’ ‘Paroles d’un croyant.’ George Sand speaks in one of her letters of Liszt as ‘the pupil of Ballanche, Rodrigues, and Sénancour.’ Olinde Rodrigues was a disciple of Saint-Simon, Sénancour the author of ‘Obermann,’ a psychological romance in letters, of which we now and then read in Liszt’s literary writings. But let us see what Heine has to say of Liszt, with whom he was personally acquainted. ‘He is a man of a distorted (verschrobenen) but noble character, unselfish and without guile. His intellectual tendencies are very remarkable. He has great talent for speculation, and, more than even by the concerns of his art, he is interested by the investigations of the different schools which occupy themselves with the solution of the great problem comprehending heaven and earth. He was long enamoured of the beautiful Saint-Simonian view of the world, subsequently the spiritualistic, or rather vaporous, thoughts of Ballanche befogged him, now he raves about the republico-catholic doctrines of Lamennais, who has planted a Jacobin cap on the cross . . . Heaven knows in what intellectual stable he will find his next hobby.
 
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BWV 1080

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Why dispute my contention that the Catholic tradition has produced great sacred music? Bach's roots are in that tradition. The Catholic priest Antonio Vivaldi, who composed with a rosary (gasp) in one hand was one of Bach's favorite composers and he transcribed many of his concertos. Can you not allow there were devout Christians who made great expressions of faith within the Roman Catholic Church without trying to explain away how everything that say a Haydn or Messiaen accomplished was done despite being Catholic?

Granted many great hymns have come from the Calvinist tradition (the doxology or old One Hundreth being the foremost example), but no great art music of any complexity like Bach or Beethoven. Music in England for example, which was very rich through the Elizabethan period (Dunstable, Tallis, Byrd etc.) died out in the 17th century as the church lost its Catholic roots and re-emerged briefly during the Restoration under the Catholic Stuarts (part of the reaction against puritanism) and then disappeared until the 20th century. Similarly, the Netherlands, home to the forefront of Renaisance polyphony, disappeared from the musical world after the Reformation.


While, Bach's B Minor Mass is not a practical Liturgical work due to its extreme length the text is the Latin ordinary. No "unbiblical" passages have been removed or changed. The text of Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Angus Dei are exactly the same as any work by Palestrina

My beef with Calvinism (which I otherwise admire in many respects) is its history of violent iconoclasm, which was expressed in music by the Reformed Church's banning of musical instruments, polyphony and texts other than the Psalms.

Reformed churches would not permit organs . . . It filled the church with ornamental and non-Scriptural sound . . . an instrument of the elaboration and clutter which their cleansing stream of simplicity was washing away . . . In Calvinist countries, except Holland . . . they preferred to have no organs . . . There is a story of the organist of . . . Zurich weeping as he watched the axes smashing his great organ . . . All the English organs were sold or demolished again in 1644 . . .

Chadwick, Owen (P), The Reformation, New York: Penguin, revised edition, 1972. 438-43


Good thing JS Bach wasn't a Swiss Calvinist!

This is just a part of the violent iconclasm of 16th century Calvinism:

Church historian Warren H. Carroll describes the Calvinist iconoclastic riots in the Low Countries in 1566:
"[O]n August 20 came the 'Calvinist fury' in Antwerp. Almost all the religious images and paintings in the 42 churches of Antwerp were destroyed without opposition by gangs working through the day and night. The iconoclasm was planned by Calvinist leaders and carried out by young men mostly paid by them or their supporters . . . Monasteries and convents were also despoiled and their libraries burned . . .

"The fury spread like wildfire. More than 400 churches, monasteries, and convents in Flanders alone were sacked during the next three or four days. Tabernacles were broken open, Hosts taken out and trampled, and the bones of saints disinterred and dragged through the dirt . . .

"In Amsterdam the mayor and the city council attempted to resist the iconoclasts, but were overwhelmed. In Utrecht 'great heaps of art treasures and vestments, including the entire library of the Friars Minor [Franciscans], were put to the torch.' In Delft the iconoclasm was directed by Adrian Menninck, a leading businessman, who went on to direct more of the same at The Hague. (Evidence is strong that the iconoclastic attacks were very well organized and coordinated.) The Count of Culemborg chopped down the altar in his own chapel with an ax, ordered his servants to bring tables into the wrecked church, sat down to dinner there, and fed consecrated Hosts from the ciborium to a parrot sitting on his wrist . . ."

". . . the Calvinists had a new opportunity, and they seized it by taking control of the principal cities of Flanders — Antwerp, Ghent and Bruges — in the spring of 1578. On the feast of Corpus Christi in June Calvinists attacked Catholic religious processions in Brussels and Liege, desecrating the Blessed Sacrament, smashing crucifixes and images, and killing many worshippers. On June 10 there was a Calvinist uprising in Utrecht, with more iconoclasm; on June 28 six Catholic religious were burned to death in Ghent."

(_The Cleaving of Christendom_, vol. 4 of A History of Christendom, Front Royal, VA: Christendom Press, 2000, 323, 380)
 
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CalvinOwen

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BWV 1080 said:
Why dispute my contention that the Catholic tradition has produced great sacred music? Bach's roots are in that tradition. The Catholic priest Antonio Vivaldi, who composed with a rosary (gasp) in one hand was one of Bach's favorite composers and he transcribed many of his concertos. Can you not allow there were devout Christians who made great expressions of faith within the Roman Catholic Church without trying to explain away how everything that say a Haydn or Messiaen accomplished was done despite being Catholic?
Bach's roots are far far from Roman Catholicism, they are deep in Lutheran and Reformed Christianity. In at least 2 of Bach's Cantata's he named the papists as the anti-Christ in true Lutheran and Reformed tradition. Roman Catholicism music is made up of ritualistic simplistic robotic chants that Luther and Bach despised and took us away from never to return. Bach liked Vivaldi alright but only to significantly revise his works in order to make strong Protestant points as noted in The Religious Designs of the Brandenberg Concertos by Morrison.

I dispute your contentions for only one reason, because they simply are not true.

BWV 1080 said:
Granted many great hymns have come from the Calvinist tradition (the doxology or old One Hundreth being the foremost example), but no great art music of any complexity like Bach or Beethoven.
And Bach, as a deeply reformed Lutheran, was inspired and motivated to praise God using much Scripture in congregational forms in true Reformation style that took music to a new level, IT ACTUALLY MEANT SOMETHING!! As opposed to empty hypnotic latin chants of Roman Catholicism.
 
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BWV 1080

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CalvinOwen said:
Bach's roots are far far from Roman Catholicism, they are deep in Lutheran and Reformed Christianity. In at least 2 of Bach's Cantata's he named the papists as the anti-Christ in true Lutheran and Reformed tradition. Roman Catholicism music is made up of ritualistic simplistic robotic chants that Luther and Bach despised and took us away from never to return. Bach liked Vivaldi alright but only to significantly revise his works in order to make strong Protestant points as noted in The Religious Designs of the Brandenberg Concertos by Morrison.

I dispute your contentions for only one reason, because they simply are not true.


And Bach, as a deeply reformed Lutheran, was inspired and motivated to praise God using much Scripture in congregational forms in true Reformation style that took music to a new level, IT ACTUALLY MEANT SOMETHING!! As opposed to empty hypnotic latin chants of Roman Catholicism.
OK. Protestantism good. Catholics bad. Everything good comes from reformation no good comes from evil papists.

Roman Catholicism music is made up of ritualistic simplistic robotic chants
Have you listened to Perotin, Ockeghem, Josquin or Palestrina? Do you really believe this ****?
 
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If you're going to talk about great hymn-writers after the reformation, don't forget Charles Wesley. He has a special place in my heart because he and his brother John Wesley helped give rise to the Methodist movement. Charles wrote close to 5,550-9000 hymns and poems, (according to some sources) including some that probably appear in most every hymnal:

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing! (Mendelssohn wrote the tune this song is set to.)
Christ the Lord is Risen Today
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling
Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus

Then there's what I'd call the "Theme song" of the Methodist church:

O For A Thousand Tongues to Sing

Charles wrote countless others too.

I look at those figures and think he was definitely inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 
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CalvinOwen

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Jadis40 said:
If you're going to talk about great hymn-writers after the reformation, don't forget Charles Wesley. He has a special place in my heart because he and his brother John Wesley helped give rise to the Methodist movement. Charles wrote close to 5,550-9000 hymns and poems, (according to some sources) including some that probably appear in most every hymnal:

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing! (Mendelssohn wrote the tune this song is set to.)
Christ the Lord is Risen Today
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling
Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus

Then there's what I'd call the "Theme song" of the Methodist church:

O For A Thousand Tongues to Sing

Charles wrote countless others too.

I look at those figures and think he was definitely inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I love Charles Wesley and all his great music!! Have you heard of the great Methodist George Whitefield? He wasn't a musician but absolutely my favorite Methodist.
 
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