Luther, and the Confession of sins

If you sin against someone, you repent and confess that sin to that person and they forgive you of that sin. That is being reconciled to your neighbor.

That isn't quite what he said.

Searching_for_Christ said:

Well then, I'm having trouble comprehending it. Sometimes I just need it to be spelled out for me, sorry about that.

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If you sin against your neighbor, you confess to your neighbor that you have sinned, apologize for it. If they forgive you, then your neighbor has in fact forgiven you for your sin.

Now private confession and absolution still a part of the Lutheran church too although to understand its role you first have to understand the Lutheran church's understanding of "The means of grace"

Basically a pastor described the term "means of grace" to me as this. God has the grace, but he has to get it to you. It would be like me having $500 that I want to give to you. But it does you no good unless I can find a way of getting the money to you. Now there are multiple ways in which I might do that, just like God has multiple ways of getting grace to you.

One of those ways is through the word (scripture) which carries the promise of the forgivness of sins.

Another is through the sacraments, communion and baptism.

Private confession and absolution are another. We belive this because Jesus gave the church the power to bind and loose sins before his accention. By confessing sins to a representative of the church (normally a pastor) he has the authority derived through the church (Not through a man) to forgive your sins through Christ, or if he finds you unrepentant to refuse to forgive them.

Private confession is not necessary because there are other means of Grace. However Luther found it to be helpful for people's conciousness (sp?) so he belived it should be retained for that reason. Historically speaking Luther especially when he was a monk had a near obcession with his sins and was afraid that he was not forgiven. Hence he made use of private confession extremely often.

In the US private confession and absolution has fallen into disuse in a lot of Lutheran churchs, and there are quite a few pastors who have been trying to encourage their congregations to start using private confession again.

Unlike Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox we don't think Private confession is the be all, end all of the forgiveness of sins. In fact some of our doctrinal statements state that enumerating all of one's sins is not necessary, partially because we belive that would be impossible to do. But also because there are other ways of obtaining grace for all of your sins both known and unknown.

However like Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox our pastors are under the "seal of confession" which essentially means "Whats said in confession, remains in confession." and they don't talk about it with anyone else. I think the only difference between Roman Catholics and Lutherans in that matter is I belive Lutheran pastors are allowed to discuss it if it was a crime.

Its my impression that if you confessed murder to a RC priest, he may withhold forgiveness if you don't turn yourself in, but he can't turn you in on the basis of confession. But I think a Lutheran pastor is allowed to turn you in on the basis of a confession.

Luther073082 said:

But I think a Lutheran pastor is allowed to turn you in on the basis of a confession.

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Not sure about that. I was under the impression that the sanctity of the confessional was the same for a Lutheran pastor as it is for the Catholic priest.

*courtesy

In the Lutheran Church, like the Roman Catholic Church, the pastor is bound by the Seal of the Confessional.

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Confession in the Lutheran Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By virtue of his ordination and the office into which he is called, the pastor has had his lips sealed from speaking about the sins of the penitent to anyone, including a court of law. - "THE PASTOR-PENITENT RELATIONSHIP: Privileged Communications", LCMS

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http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/paspen.pdf

Therefore, under no circumstances should a pastor reveal anything told him in confession by a penitent. Normally, the so-called confessional seal will be recognized and respected by civil authorities, but even if it were not, the pastor must stand by the promises which he has solemnly made before the altar and the congregation in his ordination and installation. - Mueller and Kraus, Pastoral Theology

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http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/paspen.pdf

Luther073082 said:

I belive Lutheran pastors are allowed to discuss it if it was a crime.

I think a Lutheran pastor is allowed to turn you in on the basis of a confession.

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Absolutely NOT!!!!!

DaRev said:

Absolutely NOT!!!!!

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Might be an ELCA thing. I think an ELCA pastor said they could talk about it if it was a crime.

Either way I'll take your word for it, so the seal of the confessional is the same regardless.

Luther073082 said:

Might be an ELCA thing. I think an ELCA pastor said they could talk about it if it was a crime.

Either way I'll take your word for it, so the seal of the confessional is the same regardless.

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In the ELCA the seal of confession ends in regards to intent to harm, not past crimes. See the ELCA constitution:

In keeping with the historic discipline and practice of the Lutheran
church and to be true to a sacred trust inherent in the nature of the
pastoral office, no ordained minister of this church shall divulge any
confidential disclosure received in the course of the care of souls or
otherwise in a professional capacity, nor testify concerning conduct
observed by the ordained minister while working in a pastoral
capacity, except with the express permission of the person who has
given confidential information to the ordained minister or who was
observed by the ordained minister, or if the person intends great
harm to self or others.

doulos_tou_kuriou said:

In the ELCA the seal of confession ends in regards to intent to harm, not past crimes. See the ELCA constitution:

In keeping with the historic discipline and practice of the Lutheran
church and to be true to a sacred trust inherent in the nature of the
pastoral office, no ordained minister of this church shall divulge any
confidential disclosure received in the course of the care of souls or
otherwise in a professional capacity, nor testify concerning conduct
observed by the ordained minister while working in a pastoral
capacity, except with the express permission of the person who has
given confidential information to the ordained minister or who was
observed by the ordained minister, or if the person intends great
harm to self or others.

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Same in the LCMS

So...if someone were to express suicidal thoughts during private confession, you could alert the authorities?

Bryne said:

So...if someone were to express suicidal thoughts during private confession, you could alert the authorities?

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If they are threatening to harm themselves, we are bound to alert whoever it would be necessary to inform in that situation.

I assume you mean "bound by law"...So...how do you reconcile that with the following quote:

"Therefore, under no circumstances should a pastor reveal anything told him in confession by a penitent. Normally, the so-called confessional seal will be recognized and respected by civil authorities, but even if it were not, the pastor must stand by the promises which he has solemnly made before the altar and the congregation in his ordination and installation. - Mueller and Kraus, Pastoral Theology"

Bryne said:

I assume you mean "bound by law"...So...how do you reconcile that with the following quote:

"Therefore, under no circumstances should a pastor reveal anything told him in confession by a penitent. Normally, the so-called confessional seal will be recognized and respected by civil authorities, but even if it were not, the pastor must stand by the promises which he has solemnly made before the altar and the congregation in his ordination and installation. - Mueller and Kraus, Pastoral Theology"

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I would say that future intent is not confession, it's conspiracy. There is a clear difference ethically between hearing the confession of past sins and allowing one to go forward in with a plan of sin. Divulging such intent is outside the realm of confession itself and therefore outside the bounds of the pastoral office of the seal.

Regardless of intent, if it is said in the confessional, then the above quote would apply. It is very clear:

"...under no circumstances should a pastor reveal anything told him in confession by a penitent."

Bryne said:

Regardless of intent, if it is said in the confessional, then the above quote would apply. It is very clear:

"...under no circumstances should a pastor reveal anything told him in confession by a penitent."

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The key words being "in confession". If you take the conversation outside of the bounds of confession, you really are not under its "protection". This is why one legally is no longer protected, because they are no longer speaking within the bounds of the religious rite. Since the pastor is no longer therefore acting as confessor, his ethical bounds change from protecting and executing the sanctity of that office to caring for the safety of his neighbor.

So...you are going to selectively pick and choose which things a penitent says are really "in confession"? That doesn't seem right. If I go to confession, then I consider anything that I say from the moment the confession begins until absolution is pronounced to be "in confession". If I had a pastor that tried to judge the intent of what I said to determine whether or not any of what I said was really part of my confession or not...so he could decide whether or not the seal of the confessional really applied to that part of what I said...well, I would be seriously ticked off...

If I did have suicidal thoughts, then I would confess them...since I believe that such thoughts are sinful. This would be part of my confession of my actual sins...not just some conspiracy to sin in the future.