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Luther and the Apocrypha

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BBAS 64

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Singing Bush

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Thanks for the suggestion BBAS. If you'll look further in that thread, though, you'll see that I've already looked it over a couple days ago and actually posted my own comments/questions. It's a very helpful thread concerning Luther's response to James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelations but was somewhat lacking in its discussion about the apocrypha. Thus I have come here. Thanks anyways though.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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First thing to emphasize is that Luther did not remove the deuterocanonical books from the Bible...in fact the Martin Luther version of the German bible is still published today with the Apocrypha. There are even some Lutheran churches that include Apocryphal readings in their services. The issue for Luther was "inspiration". He did believe the subject books were "profitable and good to read". According to much published information the Apocrypha was officially removed from the KJV in 1885, although the first American printed KJV without the Apocrypha was printed in 1782. Luther did neither of these.

Luther provides comments in the prefaces of all the deuterocanonical books explaining the issues that affect "inspiration" including references to the considerations of the early church fathers. As the reasoning is varied, dependent upon the book, a general 3 line statement as to "why" is not possible. The prefaces for each book explaining Luther's thinking for that book can be located in Luther's Works, Volume 35, Prefaces to the Books of the Bible.

I suspect the fact that these books were not a part of the Hebrew Old Testament also played a role. The subject books were part of the scriptures used by the Jewish Diaspora but not used by the Jews in Palestine. However, I am far from an expert on this topic.

Peace

Rose
 
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BigNorsk

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The big issue is are they scripture, that is God-breathed.

In the Old Testament, God spoke through his prophets, in the New through Jesus' apostles.

In order to include of the books they need to be God-breathed through a prophet. Also, they need to agree with other scripture since God would not contradict himself. One pretty common problem they have is that they claim to be written by someone who clearly did not write them.

When you add it up, they are some nice writing, but just don't fit the definition of scripture.

If you are interested, there are a lot more apochryphal books than what the Roman Catholic Church accepts. A bunch of New Testament ones as well as other Old Testament ones.

Marv
 
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Carl the Copt

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The books in question were in fact Bible in the time of the writing of the New Testament. The early Church always viewed them as Scripture. For Orthodox today they are Scripture just as inspired as Genesis is or Esther is.
Carl the Copt
 
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ByzantineDixie

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Carl the Copt said:
The books in question were in fact Bible in the time of the writing of the New Testament. The early Church always viewed them as Scripture. For Orthodox today they are Scripture just as inspired as Genesis is or Esther is.
Carl the Copt

But...and please correct me if I am wrong...the Orthodox do not believe these works to be infallible (as they do not believe the rest of Scripture to be completely infallible). Rather the infallibility of Scripture for the Orthodox lies not in the books but in the churches interpretation of the books. If this is true, then the Orthodox position on the deuterocanonical books and the Lutheran position would be more similar than not. Where the deviation would occur would be the Lutheran understanding of infallibility for the rest of the 66 books of the bible.

Also...regarding these books being in the Scriptures at the time of Christ...yes, where Christ was living, as part of the Diaspora, this was true, but the Jews of Palestine did not have these books. Plus...it is my understanding that the books varied through out the Diaspora depending upon location.

I am on the fringe of my knowledge base here so welcome additional comment and correction.

Peace

Rose
 
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raphink

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Esther is not "God-breathed" according to your definition. It doens't even talk about God. Still it is part of the Jewish canon (not talking about the greek Esther, which is part of the OT apocrypha) ... What about it?
 
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Wigglesworth

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The Apocrypha/Deuterocanon includes works of fiction and works that appear to be histories but with blatant historical inaccuracies. Therefore, it is difficult to reconcile them with the position of verbal inspiration by the Holy Spirit.

A more relaxed position on inspiration would allow for these writings to be acceptable by the church for "example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine . . . ." (Article VI, Articles of Religion, Book of Common Prayer). This appears to be practically the same position Luther took, although he didn't state it that way.
 
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ufonium2

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BigNorsk said:
In order to include of the books they need to be God-breathed through a prophet... One pretty common problem they have is that they claim to be written by someone who clearly did not write them.

Like the 5 "Books of Moses"? Unless you believe that Moses wrote about his own death in the past tense, and used city names that didn't exist until hundreds of years after he died, it's hard to argue that Moses wrote them in their entirety.
 
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SolomonVII

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Jamza said:
I wish it was more clear cut. I'm just confused and want to know whether or not the Apocrapha is authoritative. Heh I wish someone would tell me yes or no.
For Catholics, they are authorative. For many other Christians, they are not.
So it all depends on which voice you would consider authoritative on these matters.

One reason that the apocrypha was left out of the Bible though, contrary to the orders of the Archbishop of Cantebury of the time, was simply that paper was expensive at the time, and the publisher's were looking ot find savings on their investment wherever it may come.

One of the reason that Jews decided against the apocryphal books was that the Septuagint that included them was so popular amongst the Christians, whom they detested. The fact that Jews themselves had previously honored these books before, though, can be seen in the fact that their major festival of Hannukah, presevered in the Catholic Bible's deuterocanoical books of the Maccaabees, is not even mentioned in the version of the Masoretic Bible of the Jews. (The actual canonization of this Bible was only confirmed after the dawn of the Christian era).

Protestants themselves at first diminshed the writings of the deuterocanicals, by setting them apart, and them finally be publishing Bible without these books. Doctrinal differences, such as purgatory, prayers for the dead, and penance for sins are most explicitly spelled out in the Apocrypha, and the Protestants wanted to distance themselves from such practices, for whatever reasons.

Only in the deuterocanicals are several ideas and traditions that link the older Hebrew traditions of the Old Testament with the newer Christian traditions of the New Testament to be found. Bodily resurrection, for example first appears in explicit form in these very deuterocanicals.

hence, even if not considered inspired by all, at least all Christians should understand how inspiring that these works were historically in the formation of the most prominent doctine of the New Testament- ie that being of the Bodily Resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
 
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Truth and Reconciliation

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Luther took out the Deuterocanon - there's no doubt about it. Because he took it out, the Council of Trent made those books officially OFFICIAL to make it clear to everyone.

Yes, a lot of the Deuterocanon is fictional, but can't the Holy Spirit work through the storywriter and inspire the fictional work? Any literature inspired by the Spirit (hence only the Bible) is edifying for man to read and learn about God. For instance, the Book of Job is classified under "poetry" and isn't supposed to be a true story. It's fictional, but the Spirit breathed His Word into the author of the story so that the work of fiction contains the message that God wishes to convey to his children.

The proof that the Book of Job is fictional is through its literary style. The book was probably written during the Restoration Period under the Persians due to the literary elements adopted from Babylonian styles. And the theme of the story fits in well with the history of that era. Just think of Job as representative of Israel...

Likewise, Esther and Daniel are written during the Hellenistic Era due to the Greek literary elements in them. For instance, in Esther, Haman is implied to be Macedonian because the most odious character in Hebrew society would be their Greek conquerors. But Esther is historical because of the early records of Purim. Daniel to the exilic Jews in Babylon is somewhat of a folk hero and a prophet. The non-Deuterocanonical portions of Daniel contain both prophecy and didactic stories, while Susanna and Bel are just didactic stories/fables.

The Book of Jonah is known for the shortest prophecy in the Bible. The book is more of a didactic story/fable. But was it inspired? Sure, as it conveys the message that God wants us to hear.
 
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SolomonVII

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Perhaps more influential than Luther in casting doubt upon the 'inspired' and 'divine scripture' adjective the majority of early church leaders used to describe the Deuterocanons, would be the Protestant opinion written by AndreasBodenstein(Carlstadt)in 1520. He distinguished between helpful books such as Wisdom of Solomon, Judith, Tobit and 1 and 2 Maccabees and the dangerous books- 1 and 2 Esdras, Baruch, the Prayer of Manasseh, and the additions to Daniel mentioned in the above post quoted. The latter group were worthy of only riducule and censorship, in the opinion of Carstadt.

The usefulness of the now sequestered, doctrinally unsound, and diminished apocryphal books was a matter of debate for Protestants of the Church of England, but it was the Puritans who especially did not want the Apocrypha at all. The first English translated Bible without an Apocypha- The Geneva Bible of 1599, instantly became the favored translation among this group of Christians.

The criticism common today against the deuterocanicals is that they are unhistorical. Such criticism however is quite modern and likely has as much today with the rise of the fundamentalist movement in the past 150 or so years, which in itself was a reaction against the enlightenmnent thinking which was once on the verge of relegating the whole of the Christian faith to the dustbins of primitve superstition and naive myth, much as had been done to the Apocrypha in the previous centuries.

Hence the school of hypercitical school of biblical criticism of the mid 1800's which has been at least partially responsible for the rediscovery of the literary and metaphorical roots of many of the stories of the Old Testament, can be seen as a logical extension of the forces that had once denigrated the Apocrypha as worthy of ridicule and censure. The same arguments that were initially used against the deuterocanicals are now being used against the whole of the biblical tradition.

In an ironic twist then, the rationalism that early Protestants employed against the veracity of the Apocrypha has now taken on the form of snake consuming itself by first swallowing its own tail.
 
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Orchids

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I once had a Bible with the apocrypha in it, and am interested in reading this...but now I cannot find that Bible.

If I remember correctly (and maybe I don't)... it seems the Gospels never mention the Apocrypha nor any verses therein, so therefore another reason they were not included in the Canon?
 
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SolomonVII

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This link may provide an answer to what role Deuterocanicals played a part in the belief system of Jesus.

 
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SolomonVII

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Her is another quote from Wolseley that addresses the subject of the apocryphal writings (of which some books, by the way, did not make it into anybodies Bibles)


 
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ByzantineDixie

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Hey Soloman!

I know you are quoting Wolseley's work and you may not have this information but I am interested in source material for the following claims:

1) It was Luther's rejection of the doctrine of purgatory which caused him to reject 2nd Maccabees.

2) Because Luther rejected 2nd Maccabees he automatically had to reject the rest of the seven OT books from the Septuagint.

3) Phillip Melancthon told Luther to stop "tossing books at the rate he was going".

All three of these claims are new to me and I would like to examine the reference material which makes these claims. If you do not know, are you in a position to contact Wolseley? Many thanks!

Peace

Rose
 
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