Luke 1:45-56

[BreadAlone]

Mary's Song

46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."

56Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.

How does the RCC explain the bolded verse above?? If Mary is sinless, why does she need a Savior? (And as a sidenote, why did she die? The wages of SIN is death, but she had no sin, so why isn't she still alive??)

 

[PaladinValer]

How does the RCC explain the bolded verse above?? If Mary is sinless, why does she need a Savior? (And as a sidenote, why did she die? The wages of SIN is death, but she had no sin, so why isn't she still alive??)

Since it isn't just Vatican Catholics who believe in the sinlessness of St. Mary the Theotokos...

She still needed a Messiah because she was still human, and even though she had the most intimate of relationships with God anyone has ever had (ie: giving birth to Him Incarnate), her nature was still "damaged" even though her soul was not.

Theosis (the orthodox soteriology) explains that we will go beyond the state of Adam and Eve. We will become, as the Scriptures state, truly Christ-like, being One with the energies (but not the Substance) of God. We will become transfigured and glorified, still human and still physical beings, but almost like "infused" with the energies of God. Similar to angels, but again, still retaining our physical forms.

And actually, St. Mary the Theotokos is alive and well. She's in heaven, body and soul; a completely whole person.

 

[E.C.]

Since it isn't just Vatican Catholics who believe in the sinlessness of St. Mary the Theotokos...

It sort of depends on what one means by "sinlessness".

Sinless as in she never sinned or sinless in that she was born with no original sin. Big difference.

 

[BreadAlone]

Since it isn't just Vatican Catholics who believe in the sinlessness of St. Mary the Theotokos...

She still needed a Messiah because she was still human, and even though she had the most intimate of relationships with God anyone has ever had (ie: giving birth to Him Incarnate), her nature was still "damaged" even though her soul was not.

Theosis (the orthodox soteriology) explains that we will go beyond the state of Adam and Eve. We will become, as the Scriptures state, truly Christ-like, being One with the energies (but not the Substance) of God. We will become transfigured and glorified, still human and still physical beings, but almost like "infused" with the energies of God. Similar to angels, but again, still retaining our physical forms.

And actually, St. Mary the Theotokos is alive and well. She's in heaven, body and soul; a completely whole person.

So her nature was sinful, but she committed no wrong deed (according to you)??

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I think many believe she was "assumed" to heaven, like Elijah and Enoch were. So that's why she never "died". I think she was like you and me, maybe a little more righteous, but still had sin and needed a saviour. So I can't fufill your request.

 

[BreadAlone]

I think many believe she was "assumed" to heaven, like Elijah and Enoch were. So that's why she never "died". I think she was like you and me, maybe a little more righteous, but still had sin and needed a saviour. So I can't fufill your request.

hmm..indeed. I had forgotten that assumption bit..must be..getting late?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

hmm..indeed. I had forgotten that consumation bit..must be..getting late?

idk.. -_-;

 

[PaladinValer]

It sort of depends on what one means by "sinlessness".

I agree.

Sinless as in she never sinned or sinless in that she was born with no original sin. Big difference.

The Immaculate Conception makes logical sense, but there is no real Apostolic firm evidence for it. In addition, I think the belief, while well-intended, has to "wiggle" a little. As such, I personally do not subscribe to the belief.

Like you EOs, many of us Anglicans do not agree with the Western concept of original sin in terms of guilt. We are not guilty of the sin that corrupted our nature and broke our soul; only Adam and Eve are guilty of that. Nonetheless, all humanity was affected.

Personally, I believe she simply never sinned although I do believe she was born "worthy" by God somehow.

So her nature was sinful, but she committed no wrong deed (according to you)??

Her nature was human; nothing could change that. However, her walk in/with/of God was pure, unflinching, and always cooperative. She is the absolute best role-model a Christian can have.

And no, not according to me. According to the Apostles themselves, who were witnesses to her life and who witnessed her Holy Dormition.

 

[Kristos]

I think many believe she was "assumed" to heaven, like Elijah and Enoch were. So that's why she never "died". I think she was like you and me, maybe a little more righteous, but still had sin and needed a saviour. So I can't fufill your request.

The Assumption does not mean that she did not die. In the Orthodox tradition we do indeed amfirm that she died. You just have to listen the Dormition Service that would be clear. She was Assumed at some point after her death and before they opened her grave for Thomas.

 

[Rhamiel]

If Mary is sinless, why does she need a Savior? (And as a sidenote, why did she die? The wages of SIN is death, but she had no sin, so why isn't she still alive??)

Mary was kept sinless by the Grace of God, this is how I heard it explained, if all mankind is in a pit (sin) and Jesus offers us a way out we would call Him the Savior, but with Mary it is like warning a person that there is a pit in the road ahead so they can stay out of it. Mary is the ultimate example of Gods grace. He saved her from sin by never letting sin or death touch her. I agree completely with the bible quote you used, the wages of sin is death. That is why Mary was assumed into heaven when her time on earth was over.

 

[Ave Maria]

Here is a good article about the Immaculate Conception that should help you:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

 

[BreadAlone]

Well, at least I understand a little better how you guys actually view Mary. Thanks for the posts.

 

[Trento]

How does the RCC explain the bolded verse above?? If Mary is sinless, why does she need a Savior? (And as a sidenote, why did she die? The wages of SIN is death, but she had no sin, so why isn't she still alive??)

Mary's Magnificat was voiced just after Elizabeth greeted her as the Mother of the Lord. This was well before she gave birth to Jesus.

So the question to ask is....How can Mary be rejoicing in God her Savior, when the Savior was not yet even born, let alone completed His redemptive work on the cross. UNLESS, she was saved from her sin prior to this time. The angel called her "one having been already fully graced.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

She is the absolute best role-model a Christian can have.

What about that bit of being Christ like? (Just playin, I know what you meant.)

 

[BreadAlone]

What about that bit of being Christ like? (Just playin, I know what you meant.)

I was thinking the same thing..

 

[Mary of Bethany]

What about that bit of being Christ like? (Just playin, I know what you meant.)

How about "the absolute best human role-model a Christian can have"?

Mary

 

[Apollo Celestio]

How about "the absolute best human role-model a Christian can have"?

Mary

I don't know, I didn't know her personally.

 

[StTherese]

How does the RCC explain the bolded verse above?? If Mary is sinless, why does she need a Savior? (And as a sidenote, why did she die? The wages of SIN is death, but she had no sin, so why isn't she still alive??)

She was "saved" by the merits of Christ at her birth...born without original sin. (Immaculate Conception)

and she was assumed into heaven...

If you would like to read more about it here are some links:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm