Love

[Tellyontellyon]

Just a general observation... Christians seem to put a lot of emphasis on salvation...
Repenting and believing in Jesus as our saviour is often emphasised...

But to my mind, love is higher. Love should be above salvation...
Love for God and love for your fellow humans...
Salvation may be considered an expression of that love, but it does not encapsulate all that love is.

Love should be primary, and salvation accepted and evangelised within the context of that overarching love.

I'm sure many Christians are motivated primarily by love, but I do find that some are motivated by truth/being-right/power...
Something about that feels dangerous to me.. a kind of spiritual or psychological violence can be done from that place..
I think this is even mentioned in the scriptures, but there seems to be some Christians that seem to ignore that and conduct their preaching on a way that is demeaning and judgemental to those on the recieving end.

* Anybody else notice that? Opinions?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Just a general observation... Christians seem to put a lot of emphasis on salvation...
Repenting and believing in Jesus as our saviour is often emphasised...

But to my mind, love is higher. Love should be above salvation...
Love for God and love for your fellow humans...
Salvation may be considered an expression of that love, but it does not encapsulate all that love is.

Love should be primary, and salvation accepted and evangelised within the context of that overarching love.

I'm sure many Christians are motivated primarily by love, but I do find that some are motivated by truth/being-right/power...
Something about that feels dangerous to me.. a kind of spiritual or psychological violence can be done from that place..
I think this is even mentioned in the scriptures, but there seems to be some Christians that seem to ignore that and conduct their preaching on a way that is demeaning and judgemental to those on the recieving end.

* Anybody else notice that? Opinions?

The entire Gospel from beginning to end is about LOVE. So yes, it starts with our God who loved us first. He created us. And continued to Love us by giving us His only Son for Salvation.
Blessings

 

[Unqualified]

@Tellyontellyon Do you know Gods love. How do you do in life without knowing Gods love in the scripture?
Love overcomes, ‘love motivates’, love gives peace and rest, love satisfies. Do people without Jesus hunger for love in the world?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Just a general observation... Christians seem to put a lot of emphasis on salvation...
Repenting and believing in Jesus as our saviour is often emphasised...

But to my mind, love is higher. Love should be above salvation...
Love for God and love for your fellow humans...
Salvation may be considered an expression of that love, but it does not encapsulate all that love is.

Love should be primary, and salvation accepted and evangelised within the context of that overarching love.

I'm sure many Christians are motivated primarily by love, but I do find that some are motivated by truth/being-right/power...
Something about that feels dangerous to me.. a kind of spiritual or psychological violence can be done from that place..
I think this is even mentioned in the scriptures, but there seems to be some Christians that seem to ignore that and conduct their preaching on a way that is demeaning and judgemental to those on the recieving end.

* Anybody else notice that? Opinions?

I 100% agree. In fact a lot of the time I treat people as fragile eternal beings that The Holy Spirit wants to keep their faith as you would try and keep a delicate flame alight. They need love and their faith needs to be preserved. If we love them of course we will share truth while praying for them that they reach the right decision in whatever we are talking about but we need to remember everyone is on a different level in their walk with God, no one besides Jesus knows everything. And even we who know a lot do not know everything and can be wrong in some aspects if not many, that is why we need mercy. Mercy is undeserved forgiveness and forgiveness yes we do ask for but there are things we do wrong that we need forgiveness for without realizing it. I know that when I get to Heaven there will be things I was wrong for doing, and I will at that point need Jesus's Mercy and Forgiveness.

That being said if fellow Christians are loving to me it will help preserve my faith, and there is a time and place for correction, but it is not always.

Speaking of knowing everything Jesus who knew everything did not correct always, sometimes He taught and other times He forgave. He sometimes looked at people and loved them, He healed them, He was both loving and correcting and caring and gentle. Like a painting we cannot focus on just one color, we cannot focus only on His anger but also on His love. He is a painting to be truly admired in His fullness. We should look at ALL colors.

 

[honey badger]

Just a general observation... Christians seem to put a lot of emphasis on salvation...
Repenting and believing in Jesus as our saviour is often emphasised...

But to my mind, love is higher. Love should be above salvation...
Love for God and love for your fellow humans...
Salvation may be considered an expression of that love, but it does not encapsulate all that love is.

Love should be primary, and salvation accepted and evangelised within the context of that overarching love.

I'm sure many Christians are motivated primarily by love, but I do find that some are motivated by truth/being-right/power...
Something about that feels dangerous to me.. a kind of spiritual or psychological violence can be done from that place..
I think this is even mentioned in the scriptures, but there seems to be some Christians that seem to ignore that and conduct their preaching on a way that is demeaning and judgemental to those on the recieving end.

* Anybody else notice that? Opinions?

yes .... the great majority of those who call themselves christians judge/measure their own perceived righteousness by what they judge/measure the un-righteousness they perceive of others ...

 

[St_Worm2]

Just a general observation... Christians seem to put a lot of emphasis on salvation...
Repenting and believing in Jesus as our saviour is often emphasised...

But to my mind, love is higher. Love should be above salvation...
Love for God and love for your fellow humans...
Salvation may be considered an expression of that love, but it does not encapsulate all that love is.

Love should be primary, and salvation accepted and evangelised within the context of that overarching love.

I'm sure many Christians are motivated primarily by love, but I do find that some are motivated by truth/being-right/power...
Something about that feels dangerous to me.. a kind of spiritual or psychological violence can be done from that place..
I think this is even mentioned in the scriptures, but there seems to be some Christians that seem to ignore that and conduct their preaching on a way that is demeaning and judgemental to those on the recieving end.

* Anybody else notice that? Opinions?

Hello Tellyontellyon, there is this to consider from the Apostle Paul,

1 Corinthians 13​

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. ​

2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. ​

3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. ​

The Lord Himself told us this, as well (that it is our love for one another, not our doctrines, that will distinguish as Christians).

John 13​

34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. ​

35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” ​

On the other hand, the Lord had some interesting and important things to say about the truth, as well. For instance,

John 8​

32 “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” ​

As did the Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 13​

6 Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth.​

And Psalmists King David and the sons of Korah had things like this to say,

Psalm 25​

10 All the paths of the LORD are lovingkindness and truth to those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.​

​

Psalm 85​

10 Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other. ​

So, I guess that I'm wondering if we can say that one is really more important than the other one is, or if that is even the right question to be asking (?) because, Biblically anyway, it seems that "love" and "truth" cannot rightly exist apart from one another!!

--David
p.s. In Ephesians 4, the Apostle Paul admonishes us to "speak the truth, in love". Perhaps that says it best

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Hello Tellyontellyon, there is this to consider from the Apostle Paul,

1 Corinthians 13​

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. ​

2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. ​

3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. ​

The Lord Himself told us this, as well (that it is our love for one another, not our doctrines, that will distinguish as Christians).

John 13​

34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. ​

35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” ​

On the other hand, the Lord had some interesting and important things to say about the truth, as well. For instance,

John 8​

32 “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” ​

As did the Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 13​

6 Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth.​

And Psalmists King David and the sons of Korah had things like this to say,

Psalm 25​

10 All the paths of the LORD are lovingkindness and truth to those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.​

​

Psalm 85​

10 Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other. ​

So, I guess that I'm wondering if we can say that one is really more important than the other one is, or if that is even the right question to be asking (?) because, Biblically anyway, it seems that "love" and "truth" cannot rightly exist apart from one another!!

--David
p.s. In Ephesians 4, the Apostle Paul admonishes us to "speak the truth, in love". Perhaps that says it best

I think love and truth should go together. Truth always within the context of love...
.... But this is not always the case... Sometimes a person may have truth, but come from a place of pride and self-aggrandisement. They want to 'win' the argument. Then it is not loving, and also an incomplete truth.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

But to my mind, love is higher. Love should be above salvation...
Love for God and love for your fellow humans...
Salvation may be considered an expression of that love, but it does not encapsulate all that love is.

Love and salvation are not independent, as our most famous verse indicates:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, ​

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jn 3:16)​

It wasn't to condemn us for our sins that God sent His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, ​

but that the world through Him might be saved. (Jn 3:17)​

We were under God's condemnation already because of our sins, but believing in Jesus takes us out from under that condemnation:

He who believes in Him is not condemned;​

but he who does not believe is condemned already,​

because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn 3:18)​

So, God loved us even when we were under His condemnation because of our own sins. His love for us was so great, that He sent Jesus to die for our sins. The only thing He requires of us to be released from His condemnation is to "believe in Him".

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us:
we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. (2 Co 5:20)​

 

[St_Worm2]

I think love and truth should go together. Truth always within the context of love...

And "love always within the context of truth", too, yes? (if not, what are some of the ways that you believe it could it be otherwise?)

.... But this is not always the case... Sometimes a person may have truth, but come from a place of pride and self-aggrandisement. They want to 'win' the argument. Then it is not loving, and also an incomplete truth.

If I (as we were looking at a beautiful, lush lawn together, for instance) said, "the grass is green", but I did so in an angry/unloving manner (for some reason), how do you understand that to be "an incomplete truth"?

As far as a more general reply to what you said, this is why the Bible commands us to always, "speak the truth, in love" (if a Christian presents the truth to someone from a place of pride and self-aggrandizement, that means that he/she is sinning when they do, so they need to ask to be forgiven and repent, both to God, as well to the person/people who they were speaking to in this manner).

Thanks

--David

 

[Tellyontellyon]

And "love always within the context of truth", too, yes? (if not, what are some of the ways that you believe it could it be otherwise?)


If I (as we were looking at a beautiful, lush lawn together, for instance) said, "the grass is green", but I did so in an angry/unloving manner (for some reason), how do you understand that to be "an incomplete truth"?

As far as a more general reply to what you said, this is why the Bible commands us to always, "speak the truth, in love" (if a Christian presents the truth to someone from a place of pride and self-aggrandizement, that means that he/she is sinning when they do, so they need to ask to be forgiven and repent, both to God, as well to the person/people who they were speaking to in this manner).

Thanks

--David

It's possible to be loving and mistaken.. but still be loving. I'm talking of human love.

It's possible to be truthful but unloving, but I call that an incomplete truth in the sense that a full understanding of the truth is absent... If you know the truth fully, then you will also be loving. If you are not loving then your truth is not complete. A crucial understanding is missing.

 

[St_Worm2]

It's possible to be loving and mistaken.. but still be loving. I'm talking of human love.

Ahh, that is an important distinction to make here (as there are indeed, different kinds of love, which Greek is quite helpful with, actually). I, on the other hand, was referring to the kind of love that we associate with God, "God is agapē", IOW .. e.g. 1 John 4:8.

That said, while I agree that we can be "loving and mistaken", do you also believe that we can be "loving and lie" (at the same time), or even be "loving and deceitful"? Why?/Why not? (and by this I am now talking about "love"/being "loving" in general, just FYI)

It's possible to be truthful but unloving, but I call that an incomplete truth in the sense that a full understanding of the truth is absent...

Please elaborate a bit on this (if you wouldn't mind doing so). Thanks

If you know the truth fully, then you will also be loving.

Do you mean that such will always be the case, that it is a given or necessary result in some way?

If you are not loving then your truth is not complete. A crucial understanding is missing.

Again, I'm afraid that you are going to need to explain your proposition a bit further for me. How, for instance, in the example of "the grass is green" in my last post, would saying that to you in an "unloving" manner be an incomplete truth? What is incomplete about it, IOW? (assuming that the grass is indeed lush and green, that is )

Thanks!! I hope that you don't feel like I'm badgering you (please tell me if you do), as that is hardly my intention, I'm just trying to get a better handle on your meaning(s)/what you are really saying, before I comment further.

--David

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Telly: here is a bit of testimony from me (in England). From my infancy there was a thing going between me and the christian God, albeit reasonably simple. Over many years I came across many churches, parachurch organisations, prominent personalities, obscure personalities influenced by prominent personalities; movements, affiliations, etc. Around some of them I learned a lot of substance about real, genuine truths.

Their leaders mostly told me to do as they were telling me to do. I was dutiful and I did so. So was everyone else. Some of the people at those places were genuine. In some cases when I sensed it all "didn't add up" I overreacted and cut all ties because I lacked confidence in the gifts in me. Some leaders think that they need to quash the gifts in us, not realising our gifts could be providential for them one day. In other cases it was right to walk out but I should have kept contact details for a few of those "less far gone" to renew contact with when I gained some insight.

Anyway at 68 I'm realising I didn't buy out enough at heart level, from some of those things (so I've got it wrong at hand level). Mass codependency is proving so bad for the boundaries and the health of billions. It has set a bad example in secular contexts. I took on other people's ("holy" people's) imbalances wrongly. I'm asked by Jesus to supplicate for those people. But those people weren't teaching us how to pray. They tend to claim they or their organisation own the Bible.

The fashion is to claim the word is the thing, and that Scripture doesn't have meanings. That way they seek to obtain our external compliance by ad hominem intrusiveness because there is no interior. The universe is asking us * to use our unique gifts to interpret what will prove to be the common meanings. The "truth" that is incomplete while it seeks our obedience, stunts our love in turn. Jesus shows us how to cultivate virtues and He left us the power to do that when He ascended. We'll be saved through integrity that we help to secure in those around us.

{ * Creation longs for the appearing of the progeny of God }

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Jesus explained that these issues will always be there; indeed they were there in the time of the prophets and patriarchs, and in every nation.

Forgiveness is sometimes not well explained: we shall seem to need to know (eventually, and to some degree) what has been done to us, and done to our peers around us whom we represent. (Scripture says things like, don't oppress little ones.) Therefore forgiveness remains a continual discovery. Its core is letting ourselves off the hook for "getting something done about" people (beyond proportionately in accordance with obvious statutory reporting, legitimate rule books etc).

The only sense in which "forget" applies is about keeping the value in a score for "getting something done about".

We should know whom or how many people to avoid, how to discuss with others in tact and kindness; etc.

Gratitude is paying it forward whether someone did something for us or not: a frank contrast from fawning or creeping.

The virtue of prudence teaches us how to know:

- when to speak up about abuses and mismatches
- how to make suggestions
- how to nuance what people of goodwill say to us a little unclearly, without mental reservation on our part and whether we explain it to them or not

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Ahh, that is an important distinction to make here (as there are indeed, different kinds of love, which Greek is quite helpful with, actually). I, on the other hand, was referring to the kind of love that we associate with God, "God is agapē", IOW .. e.g. 1 John 4:8.

That said, while I agree that we can be "loving and mistaken", do you also believe that we can be "loving and lie" (at the same time), or even be "loving and deceitful"? Why?/Why not? (and by this I am now talking about "love"/being "loving" in general, just FYI)


Please elaborate a bit on this (if you wouldn't mind doing so). Thanks


Do you mean that such will always be the case, that it is a given or necessary result in some way?


Again, I'm afraid that you are going to need to explain your proposition a bit further for me. How, for instance, in the example of "the grass is green" in my last post, would saying that to you in an "unloving" manner be an incomplete truth? What is incomplete about it, IOW? (assuming that the grass is indeed lush and green, that is )

Thanks!! I hope that you don't feel like I'm badgering you (please tell me if you do), as that is hardly my intention, I'm just trying to get a better handle on your meaning(s)/what you are really saying, before I comment further.

--David

The truth is sometimes used as a weapon. Sometimes people like to be right and get one over on somebody else.. then the truth is stated, but not out of love, but as an act of psychological violence.
A person might also tell a lie out of love, or to save somebody's life...
But if somebody is coming from a truly loving selfless place, lying becomes less and less likely..