Love and Respect

RedPonyDriver · Dec 18, 2014

Inkachu said:
It's useless, ladies. Men command respect and reverence and fearful awe from ALL of us because penis.

one nice sharp knife can cure that problem

Maybe that's why my husband was such an abusive jerk...I didn't kiss his posterior enough...

Inkachu · Dec 18, 2014

RedPonyDriver said:
one nice sharp knife can cure that problem

Holy smokes, I wasn't gonna go THERE!!

Maybe that's why my husband was such an abusive jerk...I didn't kiss his posterior enough...

Nah, jerks are made, usually in childhood.

LinkH · Dec 18, 2014

My approach to these kinds of issues is like this:

1. God has revealed his will to the apostles.
2. The New Testament is inspired scripture.
3. If I disagree with something, I'm wrong, and God is right and I should change my mind.

The last three posts don't seem to operate under the same assumptions.

Notice that Paul, to whom the Lord gave revelations, including mysteries of the Gospel. In this passage, Paul is sharing a mystery about marriage. This is important stuff.

LinkH · Dec 18, 2014

RedPonyRider,

I don't know everything that went on in your marriage, and I am sorry you had such a difficult time. But I'd ask you to consider forgiving your husband/ex-husband. It is very important, especially for yourself, and your relationship with God.

RedPonyDriver · Dec 18, 2014

LinkH said:
My approach to these kinds of issues is like this:

1. God has revealed his will to the apostles.
2. The New Testament is inspired scripture.
3. If I disagree with something, I'm wrong, and God is right and I should change my mind.

The last three posts don't seem to operate under the same assumptions.

Notice that Paul, to whom the Lord gave revelations, including mysteries of the Gospel. In this passage, Paul is sharing a mystery about marriage. This is important stuff.

And those of us who are able to think critically and form well-researched opinions on various subjects don't need that to justify what we do, say or act.

ValleyGal · Dec 18, 2014

That book starts with the premise that women must deferentially respect in "all" things, meaning even if he allows her out of the kindness of his heart to have an opinion, it is not going to matter anyway because he still has the final say. This is bad theology and biblical interpretation because a closer look at the original language/texts shows that the term being translated to reverence or respect is actually not in the verse, but the concept itself is borrowed from verse 21, where it says we have to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Iow, our reverence is not for our husband, but for the Lord Jesus, where it belongs. Otherwise we run the risk of creating an idol of our husband. Submission is deference - but not out of reverence for our husband; it is a command for both husband and wife to defer (submit) to one another. It was only reiterated in verse 22 where it was specific to wives - reminding them that the deference goes both ways.

So when you start a whole book one one small group of verses taken out of context of the whole and badly interpreted, you end up with a book like Love and Respect.

mkgal1 · Dec 18, 2014

I'm getting to the point of believing that lexicons, dictionaries, etc are doing more harm than good (since the human bias gets in the way). It also seems to take us to a point where we're not seeing the forest because of all the trees (you know......we're zeroing in too close and miss the message because of it).

In the time that letter was written by Paul (as Hannah has pointed out).....marriage (culturally) was a matter of survival. At the time.....women *did* fear their husbands.....probably even externally revered them (for they could be legally tossed out on their ear once the husband was "displeased to live with" them). That's the context.

Christ came (in part---I believe) to turn all the damage from mankind's sin back into the good that God had originally created. This passage (IMO) represents an ideal. I don't think it's a prescriptive, but that's what this author has turned it into. In my opinion---that really demeans the beauty of these verses.

RedPonyDriver · Dec 18, 2014

LinkH said:
RedPonyRider,

I don't know everything that went on in your marriage, and I am sorry you had such a difficult time. But I'd ask you to consider forgiving your husband/ex-husband. It is very important, especially for yourself, and your relationship with God.

Forgive...maybe...forget...NEVER...do it again? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

IF I should ever get involved with someone again, it will be as an equal. None of this "reverence" rubbish just because he's a man. I make a decent living, have happily lived alone, can handle my business. I don't need to bow and scrape to a man for any reason at all. It will come down to "I want you in my life (on my terms since it IS my life), but I don't NEED you in my life for any reason".

RedPonyDriver · Dec 18, 2014

And if a man has to demand respect from a woman, it's probably because he doesn't deserve it in the first place...

mkgal1 · Dec 18, 2014

LinkH said:
Notice that Paul, to whom the Lord gave revelations, including mysteries of the Gospel. In this passage, Paul is sharing a mystery about marriage. This is important stuff.

Is it a mystery about marriage that's being revealed---or more the mystery of God's love for the church?

From my understanding---this letter was all one (the whole book of Ephesians). To me---it all seems to have the theme of "God's love for us" (using marriage--as that's something we can humanly relate to):

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+3&version=ESV

Inkachu · Dec 18, 2014

mkgal1 said:
I'm getting to the point of believing that lexicons, dictionaries, etc are doing more harm than good (since the human bias gets in the way). It also seems to take us to a point where we're not seeing the forest because of all the trees (you know......we're zeroing in too close and miss the message because of it).

This.

Inkachu · Dec 18, 2014

ValleyGal said:
Iow, our reverence is not for our husband, but for the Lord Jesus, where it belongs. Otherwise we run the risk of creating an idol of our husband.

And this. This is an excellent point.

mkgal1 · Dec 18, 2014

I've also read (and tend to agree with the idea) that the Bible was written somewhat in "code" (and Jesus even spoke in "code" when He told His parables). All of that was an effort to cause less cultural disruption.

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew 13.10-17

mkgal1 · Dec 18, 2014

Iow, our reverence is not for our husband, but for the Lord Jesus, where it belongs. Otherwise we run the risk of creating an idol of our husband.

I agree---this is an important point. It was Adam and Eve's oneness that caused them to sin. The ONLY time that "fear" is made perfect is when it's placed in Him (His love then casts out fear). Only God makes all things good.

HannahT · Dec 18, 2014

LinkH said:
I can agree with that. But if wives disrespecting their husbands is one aspect of this problem then it is a good thing for a book to attack one tiny part of the problem. Someone else could write a book on respecting parents, or teachers, or whatever.

But the New Testament teaches wives to do more than respect their husbands. The word used in the passage translated 'respect' in one translation is translated 'reverence' in another. It's literally the word for 'fear' but the word for fear is used in a variety of ways, including deferential reference. It is used in reference to the fear of God and fear of government officials as the minister of God.

The book doesn't emphasize husbands respecting wives, but it does encourage specific behaviors that are respectful.

Why would the book 'attack' anything Link? That is what I'm talking about, and you called me hypersensitive. I used different concepts besides the word attack, but nonetheless....

By the way the H laughed his head off when I read that to him. He said I was maybe one of the last people on earth he could safely apply the hypersensitive label too.

You see if someone feels targeted unfairly, because your delivery rots? They aren't going to hear you. Humans - not just females - do that all the time.

Jesus had a good delivery system, but this author does NOT! Calling that out doesn't make a person hypersensitive, but instead voicing your opinion. If his audience is women - and in the way he wrote the book its a BIG part of his audience - you need to know how to address them so they hear you.

That isn't rocket science here!

Quite frankly, there have been plenty of men that didn't appreciate the book either. They felt he was labeling men as a immature man child. So, he didn't reach them either.

Respect is a basic principal of any decent relationship. Sadly, it seems from this author his time in counseling gave him some very strange outlooks on the female gender overall. Could be due to him seeing to many trouble couples.

We are each unique and wonderfully made - that's in the bible too. Our issues are all different, and we don't need a book that goes on for chapters over one sentence in the bible (heck even a couple) - to supposedly make the point clear especially the way he did it. That's overkill.

When you live in a world with disrespect present around every corner? You don't touch on one aspect for one group, and go overboard on the other. That's just dumb.

LinkH · Dec 18, 2014

RedPonyDriver said:
And those of us who are able to think critically and form well-researched opinions on various subjects don't need that to justify what we do, say or act.

If you are 'researching' ideas and choose to believe the ones that are comfortable or just feel good to you, why should you think the ideas you like happen to be the truth?

Proverbs 14 warns
12There is a way that appears to be right,
but in the end it leads to death.

(NIV)

That's why we need revealed truth from God to know truth.

LinkH · Dec 18, 2014

ValleyGal said:
TThis is bad theology and biblical interpretation because a closer look at the original language/texts shows that the term being translated to reverence or respect is actually not in the verse, but the concept itself is borrowed from verse 21, where it says we have to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

I think you are talking about verses 21 and 22. Verse 22 does not have the word translated 'submit' in some manuscript tradition. One manuscript tradition has it. If I remember right, that is the Byzantine tradition. Grammatically or semantically, submit from verse 21 does carry over to verse 22.

If you look at it from a delineation perspective, it underscores the importance of the command in verse 22, but let's leave that for the one special-purpose thread.

I am talking about verse 33. I have never heard anyone say anything about the word translated 'respect'/reverence/fear' not being in verse 33.

Do you have a source for this, or do think you may be thinking of the issue with verses 21-22?

Iow, our reverence is not for our husband, but for the Lord Jesus, where it belongs.

Unless there is some reason to think that verse 33 does not tell wives to 'fear' or have reverence for their husbands, then it says it. Do you agree with verse 33?

Romans 13 also talks about fearing/reverencing the ruler, a minister of God. So it is not used exclusively of God or of Christ.

Otherwise we run the risk of creating an idol of our husband.

Do you see how it is also possible that someone could use the concept of 'creating an idol' to disregard what the Bible teaches about the proper attitude for spouses?

I think this is an issue where translation is a problem. We don't use 'fear' to mean deferential reference except in religious contexts where we are translating it from Greek. We usually use 'reverence' to refer to our attitude toward God, or maybe an attitude at a funeral or something like that. All of these words have their shortcomings.

But as far as what Paul is saying in the passage in verse 33, can't we all agree that wives should have that attitude toward their husbands?

And of course it should be done 'as unto the Lord' as we are to do with our work and every area of our lives, out of reverence for Christ.

LinkH · Dec 18, 2014

HannahT said:
You see if someone feels targeted unfairly, because your delivery rots? They aren't going to hear you. Humans - not just females - do that all the time.

Jesus had a good delivery system, but this author does NOT! Calling that out doesn't make a person hypersensitive, but instead voicing your opinion. If his audience is women - and in the way he wrote the book its a BIG part of his audience - you need to know how to address them so they hear you.

I just took a class on this book with nearly 20 people who received it well. I think there are certain people who think a certain way who don't like the book. It doesn't sit well with a strongly held opinion.

Quite frankly, there have been plenty of men that didn't appreciate the book either. They felt he was labeling men as a immature man child. So, he didn't reach them either.

There were some places where I thought he was overstating a man's opinion of a woman's reaction to him. But I think it's an individual thing. It may be true for him and a lot of men. So I brushed that sort of thing off and look at the bigger picture when I read the book.

[

When you live in a world with disrespect present around every corner? You don't touch on one aspect for one group, and go overboard on the other. That's just dumb.

The Bible emphasizes wives reverencing husbands, honoring parents, honoring those who rule. So it does make sense to pay attention to special areas where the Bible emphasizes something.

Does it make sense to write pages and pages on one little verse in the Bible? How many books worth of material have you and the rest of us written on these forums over the years, sometimes on even less weighty topics?

RedPonyDriver · Dec 18, 2014

LinkH said:
If you are 'researching' ideas and choose to believe the ones that are comfortable or just feel good to you, why should you think the ideas you like happen to be the truth?

Proverbs 14 warns
12There is a way that appears to be right,
but in the end it leads to death.

(NIV)

That's why we need revealed truth from God to know truth.

Ya know, that's where critical thinking, researching, looking for facts comes in. I'm an engineer...I don't live by feelings. I can "feel" something will work all day long, but if the math doesn't prove it out...it doesn't matter.

I like Facts, figures, hard data...not some wishy-washing "feeling". Words themselves have meanings...I go by dictionary definitions.

However...seeing as how I'm female, don't agree with you and live in quite a different world than you do...nevermind.

mkgal1 · Dec 18, 2014

LinkH said:
If you are 'researching' ideas and choose to believe the ones that are comfortable or just feel good to you, why should you think the ideas you like happen to be the truth?

Proverbs 14 warns
12There is a way that appears to be right,
but in the end it leads to death.

(NIV)

That's why we need revealed truth from God to know truth.

Whoever said that thinking critically discounts God's involvement? Those aren't mutually exclusive ways. It's not 'researching' ideas to include our own brains and spirits (it was He that created us with those--I believe He intended us to put them to good use).

Love and Respect

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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