Loss of Hope

Terri · Nov 30, 2005

strengthinweakness said:
Terri, as others have, I can speak from my own personal experience with loss of hope (both before, and after, becoming a Reformed Christian). I have experienced deep pain (physical and mental), grief, and trauma in my life. My mother was clinically depressed, and I have also struggled with severe depression. I also have a physical disability, and that has been very hard (although it has also been a deep gift in many ways).

My faith has greatly helped to keep me from losing hope. Before I became Reformed though, I constantly looked at my circumstances in life and allowed them to "shake me" emotionally, and even spiritually, at times. I don't know that I ever lost ultimate (i.e. eternally-minded) hope, but my depression nearly did bring me to despair of my earthly life. (My own history with non-Reformed theology leads me to think that it leaves one more open to loss of hope, both temporally and eternally.) Because I did not understand (and/or accept) God's sovereignty over all things, I experienced a much greater degree of anxiety and depression. I saw myself as being at the mercy of people and circumstances which were outside of my control. I was partially right about that-- I didn't have control (at least not the kind of control that I wanted), but that was not a cause for despair! When God brought me to understand and accept the doctrines of grace, as taught in the Bible, I finally saw the awesome truth that He is in control! No harm-- nothing painful in any way, in fact-- can come to me unless He allows it, and if He allows it, then I can know that it is for my ultimate good! This knowledge has been an unspeakable comfort to me. Now that I am Reformed, I also understand that I had nothing to do with my salvation. God could have justly chosen to leave me dead in my sins, damned for all eternity, but He graciously chose to save me! He saved me, and He will keep me! The former has contributed greatly to my general thankfulness in life, while the latter has lessened my anxiety. Part of my earlier, ongoing depression had been a lack of gratitude toward God. I did not understand just how much He had blessed me and just how indebted I was to Him. Although I wouldn't have admitted it at the time, I thought that, since I had "chosen" Him, He was somehow "obligated" to save me! (I find this to be one of the greatest problems with non-Reformed understandings of Christianity.) He basically owed me salvation! Oh, how wrong I was was... praise God for setting me right on that crucial point!!! I now have much more gratitude to God (and hence, much less resentment and depression) than I once did.

Now, having said all of the above, there are still times when I struggle with depression. Even knowing what I know about God, I can still lose my perspective and look too much at my circumstances and at how "badly" certain things seem to be going in my life. However, God is merciful to me. He always realigns my view to Him and His good purposes. I may not always understand the painful things that He allows in my life, and in the lives of others, but I know that He is in control of all things (even the evil acts of people). Being Reformed (which really just means, being Biblical!) in my theology, I now have peace and comfort that I have never had before in my life. Even better, I have a deeper, more true understanding of the God of the Bible! All glory belongs to Him!

Thank you strengthinweakness! God's Spirit surely shines through you.

I don't know what to say about all of your suffering. On one hand I feel bad that you have had to go through it all, but on the other hand I can understand it being a gift to you at the same time. I feel the same way about the suffering in my life-I sure hate to go through it, but it sure seems to help me get where I want to be spiritually.

I know what you mean about Reformed just being Biblical. I was Reformed before I ever knew that there was something called Reformed. I had just come to the conclusion on my own that God just wasn't getting enough of the credit!

Terri · Nov 30, 2005

McWilliams said:
I did a study on 'Living a Life of Hope' by Nathan Busenitz which was very helpful. The back cover states it is '31 days to true hope'. It covers how to remain 'hopeful'. Some of the chapters are,
A Hope that Will Not Disappoint, Unlocking Your Spiritual Hope Chest, A God You Can Trust, Where is Your Hope Built.

I guess what I mostly gained from the study were the special scriptures and the fact that as a christian our hope is personified. It is Christ! We are now His forever!
1John 3:2, Beloved, now we are the children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is, v3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure!

He is our purifying hope! The Holy Spirit is even now working us into the image of Christ. We are living in the reality of Christ's return.

I suggest reading the book of 1John and pondering the great truths in the verses there and asking our sweet Lord to show you His peace!
Isaiah 26:3 You will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.
We, as Christians are not to worry or agonize about our feelings but are to place all of our hope in our Savior. He has great keeping power!

He is our Hope!
This book, Living a Life of Hope tells us how to stay focused on what really matters.

Hi McWilliams!

I agree about Jesus' being our hope--our blessed hope!

Thank you so much McWilliams for the words of encouragement and for the suggested reading.

jbarcher · Dec 1, 2005

Terri said:
Thank you jbarcher. I agree with what you said about the serving of created things. It really helps clear it up for me. I think that God was just getting on my case a little for the worrying and I thought perhaps it might have a deeper meaning. He did make His feelings known about it and I have taken heed and relaxed some about if and when the house sells.

I expecially agree with you about soli deo gloria!

The only think I'm a little confused on is the "faith is loyalty." I've never thought of or heard anyone else describe faith as loyalty. Could you explain that to me--pretty please.

Your a real blessing jbarcher and so kind to take your time to help me understand.

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html

I will discuss patronage if needed. Stop reading when you get down to the discussion of examples; some silly arguments are dissected and are irrelevant for this. Read carefully and note contrast between modern and ancient paradigms.

Terri · Dec 1, 2005

jbarcher said:
http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html

I will discuss patronage if needed. Stop reading when you get down to the discussion of examples; some silly arguments are dissected and are irrelevant for this. Read carefully and note contrast between modern and ancient paradigms.

Thank you Jbarcher for the link.

I read it. I'm afraid it's not very clear to me though.

Is this the accepted Reformed definition of faith?

McWilliams · Dec 1, 2005

Terri, All you'd ever want to know about the Reformed view of 'faith' can be found in the articles on this site! This site is a favorite of mine and has many articles of the sound doctrines, reformed!

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/faith.html

jbarcher · Dec 1, 2005

I have to say I'm not sure how much groundwork needs to be done. Personally I am mildly familiar with social science interpretations via Context Group, but if the methodology and material is utterly new we've a long way to go. Let me see if I can cut to the chase though, by commenting on a single paragraph:

the meaning intended is in the sense of faithfulness, or loyalty as owed to one in whom one is embedded for service (in this case, the body of Christ). This now leads to an expansion of the pistis concept as derived from deSilva. As deSilva shows, the relationship between the believer and God is framed in terms of an ancient client-patron relationship. As God's "clients" to whom he has shown unmerited favor (grace), our response should be, as Malina and Neyrey frame it, a "constant awareness" of prescribed duties toward those in whom we are indebted (God) and the group in which we are embedded (God's kin group, the body of Christ). This "constant awareness" is the expression of our faithfulness of loyalty -- in other words, this is our pistis, or faith. "Faith" is not a feeling, but our pledge to trust, and be reliable servants to, our patron (God), who has provided us with tangible gifts (Christ) and proof thereby of His own reliability.

Patronage was a widespread social institution in the first-century and in the ancient world. It is largely economic-related but may deal in non-material goods as well (i.e. access to a higher patron). Seneca, ancient philosopher among other things, says that patronage was the "practice that constitutes the chief bond of human society" (De Beneficiis, 1.4.2). It was as much a part of ancient society as buying and selling is to us. Let me first contrast terms:

In our society, 'patron' is used to refer to customers. Customers are called patrons because they buy things and that translates to money for the company. Individual patrons are not regarded too highly--you can even flip off some people without having devastating ramifications.

In the ancient world, this meaning of patron is non-existent. Patrons nearly always occupied a very high place on the honor scale (roughly, value scale, except honor is a very intricate topic). The reasons for this can be very complex, but to look at it simply, patrons were often elites, and landowners. We need to become aware of the radically different economy. Again, this can be done in a lengthy way, but consider an economy where 1-3% of the population owned 2/3 of farmable land. Then consider that this economy had 90-95% of the population as farmers. The elite own the vast majority of wealth. Around 90% lived in rural areas; the higher classes lived in the cities.

For this reason, people who owned land held a great deal of wealth. With the vast majority of the population working the land, anyone who controlled the land, controlled the people. Patrons, therefore, were the key to gaining key resources. Clients were those who petitioned patrons for resources. The term used to refer to the granting of a request is grace or favor.

Patrons could grant numerous goods: land, money to start a business, protection, debt relief, even position and office. A patron could even grant access to another patron by acting as a broker/mediator; the broker would testify on behalf of the client. If the patron granted the request, the client would be indebted to both the broker and the patron. (For this grant-debt relationship, we need to discuss limited good.) The client could repay the patron in a variety of ways, but always a) attempting to enhance the patron's honor, b) being loyal, and c) providing services.

For example, a client might spend a few days in the city acting as a herald for the patron as he (the patron) went through the streets. The client would announce the patron's presence. Other ways relate to how the elites put their wealth on display; clients could merely show up so that there are a lot of people, or come to be the target of insults and jokes. IIRC in places the character of God (who does not bring clients to insult) is contrasted to the practices of G-R elites.

The relationship between the Christian and God was naturally understood in terms of a patron-client relationship (no other model existed, really. This does not require a Hellenized Galilee, only some understanding of ancient society.) In the NT, God [i.e. the Father] is the ultimate Patron, Jesus is the broker, and we are the clients. We have obligation to God and to Jesus. Hence, JP,

As deSilva shows, the relationship between the believer and God is framed in terms of an ancient client-patron relationship. As God's "clients" to whom he has shown unmerited favor (grace), our response should be, as Malina and Neyrey frame it, a "constant awareness" of prescribed duties toward those in whom we are indebted (God) and the group in which we are embedded (God's kin group, the body of Christ).

We (all of us) are God's clients, and we do not deserve His grace. But that He grants it, and in a very drastic way, puts upon us interpersonal obligation to repay the ultimate Patron. Thus we must be constantly aware of the obligations we have towards God and our kin. Kinship is another large topic, but suffice it to say that Jesus started a fictive kin group; one that used the language of family to describe relationships, while not requiring biological connections. This faith, then, is about our relationships to God and to our kin group. Hence,

This "constant awareness" is the expression of our faithfulness of loyalty -- in other words, this is our pistis, or faith. "Faith" is not a feeling, but our pledge to trust, and be reliable servants to, our patron (God), who has provided us with tangible gifts (Christ) and proof thereby of His own reliability.

Let's summarize.

Patrons occupy a very high position on the honor (value) scale. They are treated with great respect. They can also grant many goods.

Patronage is a two- or three-way exchange. There is the patron, and then there is the client. At times the patron may act as a broker, or intermediary between the client and another patron.

Clients have interpersonal obligation to the patron(s) and broker(s). In other words, they have obligation to be loyal to the patron(s). This is called faith.

Terri · Dec 2, 2005

McWilliams said:
Terri, All you'd ever want to know about the Reformed view of 'faith' can be found in the articles on this site! This site is a favorite of mine and has many articles of the sound doctrines, reformed!

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/faith.html

Thank you Mc. That looks like a great site. I've got it on my favorites. I'm going to start working my way through it today!

Terri · Dec 2, 2005

jbarcher said:
I have to say I'm not sure how much groundwork needs to be done. Personally I am mildly familiar with social science interpretations via Context Group, but if the methodology and material is utterly new we've a long way to go. Let me see if I can cut to the chase though, by commenting on a single paragraph:

Patronage was a widespread social institution in the first-century and in the ancient world. It is largely economic-related but may deal in non-material goods as well (i.e. access to a higher patron). Seneca, ancient philosopher among other things, says that patronage was the "practice that constitutes the chief bond of human society" (De Beneficiis, 1.4.2). It was as much a part of ancient society as buying and selling is to us. Let me first contrast terms:

In our society, 'patron' is used to refer to customers. Customers are called patrons because they buy things and that translates to money for the company. Individual patrons are not regarded too highly--you can even flip off some people without having devastating ramifications.

In the ancient world, this meaning of patron is non-existent. Patrons nearly always occupied a very high place on the honor scale (roughly, value scale, except honor is a very intricate topic). The reasons for this can be very complex, but to look at it simply, patrons were often elites, and landowners. We need to become aware of the radically different economy. Again, this can be done in a lengthy way, but consider an economy where 1-3% of the population owned 2/3 of farmable land. Then consider that this economy had 90-95% of the population as farmers. The elite own the vast majority of wealth. Around 90% lived in rural areas; the higher classes lived in the cities.

For this reason, people who owned land held a great deal of wealth. With the vast majority of the population working the land, anyone who controlled the land, controlled the people. Patrons, therefore, were the key to gaining key resources. Clients were those who petitioned patrons for resources. The term used to refer to the granting of a request is grace or favor.

Patrons could grant numerous goods: land, money to start a business, protection, debt relief, even position and office. A patron could even grant access to another patron by acting as a broker/mediator; the broker would testify on behalf of the client. If the patron granted the request, the client would be indebted to both the broker and the patron. (For this grant-debt relationship, we need to discuss limited good.) The client could repay the patron in a variety of ways, but always a) attempting to enhance the patron's honor, b) being loyal, and c) providing services.

For example, a client might spend a few days in the city acting as a herald for the patron as he (the patron) went through the streets. The client would announce the patron's presence. Other ways relate to how the elites put their wealth on display; clients could merely show up so that there are a lot of people, or come to be the target of insults and jokes. IIRC in places the character of God (who does not bring clients to insult) is contrasted to the practices of G-R elites.

The relationship between the Christian and God was naturally understood in terms of a patron-client relationship (no other model existed, really. This does not require a Hellenized Galilee, only some understanding of ancient society.) In the NT, God [i.e. the Father] is the ultimate Patron, Jesus is the broker, and we are the clients. We have obligation to God and to Jesus. Hence, JP,

We (all of us) are God's clients, and we do not deserve His grace. But that He grants it, and in a very drastic way, puts upon us interpersonal obligation to repay the ultimate Patron. Thus we must be constantly aware of the obligations we have towards God and our kin. Kinship is another large topic, but suffice it to say that Jesus started a fictive kin group; one that used the language of family to describe relationships, while not requiring biological connections. This faith, then, is about our relationships to God and to our kin group. Hence,

Let's summarize.

Patrons occupy a very high position on the honor (value) scale. They are treated with great respect. They can also grant many goods.

Patronage is a two- or three-way exchange. There is the patron, and then there is the client. At times the patron may act as a broker, or intermediary between the client and another patron.

Clients have interpersonal obligation to the patron(s) and broker(s). In other words, they have obligation to be loyal to the patron(s). This is called faith.

Thank you jbarcher.

I understand what your saying now.

Not sure if I can go along with that definition of faith at this point.

But, I'm going to be studying McWilliams site. Maybe that will clear somethings up for me.

Thank you for all of your patience with me.

jbarcher · Dec 2, 2005

I'm guessing the ANE social science stuff is too foreign to you. Understandable.

As for your question if this is the/a Reformed view, I'll be perfectly honest and say I don't know and I wouldn't care. In terms of theology I'm the loose nut who's got no home except in Christ. My hermeneutics are radically different from the vast majority of Christians I see, which shoves me into the margins. It's like being isolated among people who are supposed to be your family, because someone will say something "spiritual" about some text, whereas I would argue that the interpretation is miles off.* Don't pity me; if anything, pray for me.
_________
* Consider, for example, the scene about the children coming to Jesus. I have seen the skillful paintings of a Jesus who smiles as the children run to Him. This is completely off; the children being brought to Jesus are (almost certainly) sickly or dying. Childhood in antiquity was a terrifying time with very low life expectancy rates which didn't get much better.

JimfromOhio · Dec 2, 2005

Terri said:
Can anyone help me understand why a Christian would loss hope.

If a Christian says that they don't have hope is it something that they are doing wrong, is it God not giving them the gift of hope, or is it something else?

This is very, very important to me guys and I would appreciate your help. I know I can trust the opinions of ya'll that truly understand grace!

I have struggled with this in the past. My faith in God allows me to go as far as I can while trusting in God's grace to overcome the difficulties I face. God is asking me to stay strong in faith, keep at it, to carry on, to stick with it, as I trust in HIS possibilities. In doing so God will lift me above my circumstances as he develops my patience, character and hope. Romans 5:3-4 ".....I also rejoice in my sufferings, because I know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." I suffer to keep down pride (2 Cor. 12:7). I suffer because it is a training tool. God lovingly and faithfully uses suffering to develop personal righteousness, maturity, and my walk with Him (Heb. 12:5f; 1 Pet. 1:6; Jam. 1:2-4). Suffering or trials teach me the truth of Psalm 62:1-8, the truth of learning to wait on the Lord only. This means that this can require sacrifice, courage, discipline, and faith in the belief that God is good and has my best interests at heart regardless of how things might appear to me. Those are what brings me closer to God.

I have posted many posts about my sufferings and my hope. Today, I have more hope in God and to-date, I have not lost my hope in God.

Terri · Dec 3, 2005

jbarcher said:
I'm guessing the ANE social science stuff is too foreign to you. Understandable.

As for your question if this is the/a Reformed view, I'll be perfectly honest and say I don't know and I wouldn't care. In terms of theology I'm the loose nut who's got no home except in Christ. My hermeneutics are radically different from the vast majority of Christians I see, which shoves me into the margins. It's like being isolated among people who are supposed to be your family, because someone will say something "spiritual" about some text, whereas I would argue that the interpretation is miles off.* Don't pity me; if anything, pray for me.
_________
* Consider, for example, the scene about the children coming to Jesus. I have seen the skillful paintings of a Jesus who smiles as the children run to Him. This is completely off; the children being brought to Jesus are (almost certainly) sickly or dying. Childhood in antiquity was a terrifying time with very low life expectancy rates which didn't get much better.

Well, I certainly don't pity you Jbarcher. You are a super intelligent, very kind and patient person. I don't see anything to pity you for.

I do know how sad it is to feel isolated. We have that in common. I am not very good at communicating, am usually really silly, not to bright, tend to rub people the wrong way-- all of which isolate me even at CF. I get shunned alot. So, I will pray for you, if you will pray for me!

Terri · Dec 3, 2005

JimfromOhio said:
I have struggled with this in the past. My faith in God allows me to go as far as I can while trusting in God's grace to overcome the difficulties I face. God is asking me to stay strong in faith, keep at it, to carry on, to stick with it, as I trust in HIS possibilities. In doing so God will lift me above my circumstances as he develops my patience, character and hope. Romans 5:3-4 ".....I also rejoice in my sufferings, because I know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." I suffer to keep down pride (2 Cor. 12:7). I suffer because it is a training tool. God lovingly and faithfully uses suffering to develop personal righteousness, maturity, and my walk with Him (Heb. 12:5f; 1 Pet. 1:6; Jam. 1:2-4). Suffering or trials teach me the truth of Psalm 62:1-8, the truth of learning to wait on the Lord only. This means that this can require sacrifice, courage, discipline, and faith in the belief that God is good and has my best interests at heart regardless of how things might appear to me. Those are what brings me closer to God.

I have posted many posts about my sufferings and my hope. Today, I have more hope in God and to-date, I have not lost my hope in God.

I praise God Jim that you have not lost your hope.

Thank you for your post Jim. It was very encouraging to me.

"I don't have any hope," that's what a loved one told me. Now, they are absent from the body and present with the Lord and I can't ask them to explain further what they meant. I know they were a Christian and that they understood grace. How can a Christian loose hope???? This question haunts me for some reason.

But, I've gotten alot of help in this thread. I see that my loved one was just probably depressed. I know that they were a Christian and I know that eventhough they were having a most difficult time in this world they had certainly not lost their hope in God. And, that is what is important.

McWilliams · Dec 3, 2005

Hope fills the afflicted soul with such inward joy and consolation, that it can laugh while tears are in the eye, sigh and sing all in a breath; it is called "the rejoicing of hope" (Hebrews 3:6). William Gurnall

Believers are never without 'hope'! We care for one another and remind each other to continue in hope, a forward journey in Christ! We do have extreme challenges at times but we are family and provide needed support, comfort and love to each other!
God bless!

JimfromOhio · Dec 3, 2005

Romans 12:12
Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.

Terri · Dec 4, 2005

McWilliams said:
Hope fills the afflicted soul with such inward joy and consolation, that it can laugh while tears are in the eye, sigh and sing all in a breath; it is called "the rejoicing of hope" (Hebrews 3:6). William Gurnall

Believers are never without 'hope'! We care for one another and remind each other to continue in hope, a forward journey in Christ! We do have extreme challenges at times but we are family and provide needed support, comfort and love to each other!
God bless!

Thank you Mc for posting that. You know, I have actually felt like I am going crazy lately when I have been feeling so much distress and at the same time joy. It has been very confusing for me and it's great to know that others have experienced this.

Not saying that I still might not be crazy, but at least now I have one less sign!

Terri · Dec 4, 2005

JimfromOhio said:
Romans 12:12
Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.

Thank you Jim.

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