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JimfromOhio

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So...what's happening?
Hi Jim,

Nothing much. Been very busy lately. I have been part of Anabaptist denomination for almost 20 years and I found Anabaptist do believe much of the Reformed Theologies. I am very comfortable with Anabaptist doctrines. So, I am going to try this Anabaptist (Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches) near my home. This is a smaller church than I used to go to. The other one was too big for me.

How are you doing? :wave:
 
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RussT

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Nothing much. Been very busy lately. I have been part of Anabaptist denomination for almost 20 years and I found Anabaptist do believe much of the Reformed Theologies. I am very comfortable with Anabaptist doctrines. So, I am going to try this Anabaptist (Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches) near my home. This is a smaller church than I used to go to. The other one was too big for me.

Out of curiosity, which of the Reformed Theologies have you found that Anabaptists agree with? I'm Anabaptist(Mennonite) and from what I've read under the Soteriology posts, I think that I would have a hard time agreeing with much of what is argued there.

In Christ,
Russ
 
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JimfromOhio

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Out of curiosity, which of the Reformed Theologies have you found that Anabaptists agree with? I'm Anabaptist(Mennonite) and from what I've read under the Soteriology posts, I think that I would have a hard time agreeing with much of what is argued there.

In Christ,
Russ

I am not a pure calvinist but I do accept many of Reformed and Calvinism doctrines. Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches are more on the Calvinist side but they do NOT agree calvin doctrines. One critical difference between Anabaptists and Reformers on the doctrine of the Atonement is that Anabaptists rejected justification by the law as a means of salvation as did the other Reformers, but they insisted that those who are saved will follow the law of Christ written in their hearts and do the “works of faith.” It was an external benefit bestowed by God regardless of human involvement.

To the some of the Anabaptists, atonement meant much, much more. According to Pilgram Marpeck it was far more than a legal transaction in the heavenly court. It meant “at-one-ment” with God and referred to all the ways in which God and humans have been reconciled through the work of Jesus Christ. Similar to Calvinism, unless a person responds appropriately to the work of Christ, for that person, atonement is not efficacious. The work of Christ, however, also includes the actualizing power of his Spirit whereby people are able to appropriate Christ’s saving work. Like other Anabaptists he believed firmly in salvation by grace alone and that the atonement meant both reconciliation and restoration. It must therefore cooperate with God for the work of Christ to be effective. It must allow itself to be reconciled to God.

In an Anabaptist model (i.e. Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches), the atonement is the work of God from beginning to end. God alone provides the means of salvation through the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Christ; through the call of God for all to repent and accept the gospel; and through the God-given restoration of the individual’s ability to choose (convicted by the Holy Spirit) to respond to God’s grace. If they do not do this, it is a sign that they have not appropriated the work of Christ in their lives, and therefore the new birth has resulted in a still-birth. Although God has done everything and enough, atonement is not efficacious for that person; the goal of incorporating the individual into the life of the Spirit of God has been aborted.
 
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RussT

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Jim,

When I think of Reformed or Calvinist Theology, I think of monergism as opposed to synergism, or predestination, or TULIP:

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perserverance of the saints

Perhaps I can't speak for all Anabaptists, but I know I have some real problems with much of the above. God is sovereign, but it seems to me from Scripture that He generally gives mankind the free will to choose to follow Him or not. Faith is man's response to God's call, and our response is not dependent on God's prior choice of us as individuals which is unconditional and irresistible. Neither is the atonement limited only to those whom He has predestined (although it seems to me that the disagreement in this area is more semantic than substantive, because even if one argues that the atonement isn't limited per se, it is still efficacious only for those who repent and turn to God). And as far as the perserverance of the saints, I'm pretty sure most of the Anabaptists would have said that a believer could fall away from the faith.

There was considerable agreement with the Reformers, as the first Anabaptists arose from out of Zwinglis reform movement in Switzerland. The major difference in the beginning had to do with the relation of the Church with the State, and infant baptism. Was everyone baptized as an infant and a therefor a member of the church, even though as adults they were decidely unchristian in their behaviour; or, was the church to be made up of only those who were believers and practiced the new life found in and through Christ? Thus, they rebaptized each other and were given the slur 'Anabaptist', and were hunted down and martyred by Reformer and Catholic alike.

In Christ,
Russ
 
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JimfromOhio

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Jim,

When I think of Reformed or Calvinist Theology, I think of monergism as opposed to synergism, or predestination, or TULIP:

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perserverance of the saints

Perhaps I can't speak for all Anabaptists, but I know I have some real problems with much of the above. God is sovereign, but it seems to me from Scripture that He generally gives mankind the free will to choose to follow Him or not. Faith is man's response to God's call, and our response is not dependent on God's prior choice of us as individuals which is unconditional and irresistible. Neither is the atonement limited only to those whom He has predestined (although it seems to me that the disagreement in this area is more semantic than substantive, because even if one argues that the atonement isn't limited per se, it is still efficacious only for those who repent and turn to God). And as far as the perserverance of the saints, I'm pretty sure most of the Anabaptists would have said that a believer could fall away from the faith.

There was considerable agreement with the Reformers, as the first Anabaptists arose from out of Zwinglis reform movement in Switzerland. The major difference in the beginning had to do with the relation of the Church with the State, and infant baptism. Was everyone baptized as an infant and a therefor a member of the church, even though as adults they were decidely unchristian in their behaviour; or, was the church to be made up of only those who were believers and practiced the new life found in and through Christ? Thus, they rebaptized each other and were given the slur 'Anabaptist', and were hunted down and martyred by Reformer and Catholic alike.

In Christ,
Russ
Hi Russ,

I have dealt with this issue for many years and one day, I took the time to study. To me, there are three (3) major doctrine of salvations beliefs, Lutherans, Arminianism and Calvinism.

T: "total depravity"
Calvinism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

Lutheranism: Agrees with Calvinism on total depravity

Arminianism: Man after the Fall can cooperate with God’s grace in conversion

U: "unconditional election"
Calvinism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation and the others (reprobates) for damnation.

Lutheranism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.

Arminianism: Before the world was created, God foresaw those who would choose Him of their own free will and elected them to salvation

L: "limited atonement"
Calvinism: Jesus only died for the elect, objectively atoning for their sin, but he did not die for the sins of the reprobates. Reformed churches have historically taught a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect"--those who have been predestined from eternity to believe in Christ and will spend eternity with Him in heaven.

Lutheranism: Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. Lutherans believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time--even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ.

Arminianism: Christ died to give all the possibility to be saved.

I: "irresistable grace"
Calvinism: In all of God's outward actions (preaching, baptism, etc.) there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

Lutheranism: The question is not answerable; for the elect grace will irresistably triumph, yet those who reject Christ have rejected that Grace; yet the grace is the same.

Arminianism: God gives in His outward actions the same grace to all; this grace can be resisted by all.

P: "perseverance of the saints" (sort of like "once saved, always saved.")
Calvinism: Salvation cannot be lost. Those who have truly put their faith in Christ may temporarily lose the evidence of their faith and even live for a time in grave and unrepentant sin, without losing their salvation.

Lutheranism: Salvation can be lost through mortal sin and unbelief, but this legal warning does not cancel the Gospel promise of election

Arminianism: Salvation can be lost through unrepentant sin and unbelief.

From my own perspectives and beliefs, this is how I believe:

1. I agree with Calvinism and Lutheranism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

2. I agree with Lutheranism that before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.

3. I agree with Calvinism and Lutheranism (mixed) that Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. I disagree with Lutheranism's believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time, even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ. However, Reformed churches have historically taught a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect".

4. I agree with Calvinism that in all of God's outward actions, there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

5. I agree with Calvinism that salvation cannot be lost. Those who have truly put their faith in Christ may temporarily lose the evidence of their faith and even live for a time in grave and unrepentant sin, without losing their salvation.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I think it's possible for some that salvation can't be lost,
however, practically
no one is saved..... (just many many many think they are)

so
when it looks like they backslid or rejected the Messiah or lost their salvation
they didn't really lose anything
because they didn't have anything to lose.

2mouthparts has been long ago debunked, thoroughly and entirely, every part.
the originator was exposed as a fraud more completely, or at least as completedly as b. h....; just go look - if anyone looks and loves the truth, Abba shows him the truth about everything (if anyone knows even 3 people who don't lie, they are very blessed)
 
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MrJim

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Hi Russ,

From my own perspectives and beliefs, this is how I believe:

1. I agree with Calvinism and Lutheranism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

2. I agree with Lutheranism that before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.

3. I agree with Calvinism and Lutheranism (mixed) that Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. I disagree with Lutheranism's believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time, even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ. However, Reformed churches have historically taught a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect".

4. I agree with Calvinism that in all of God's outward actions, there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

5. I agree with Calvinism that salvation cannot be lost. Those who have truly put their faith in Christ may temporarily lose the evidence of their faith and even live for a time in grave and unrepentant sin, without losing their salvation.

Grace Brethren must be a unique anabaptist group~most of these would not work in the mennonite & brethren (Brethren in Christ & Church of the Brethren) congregations I know..
 
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RussT

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Hi Russ,

I have dealt with this issue for many years and one day, I took the time to study. To me, there are three (3) major doctrine of salvations beliefs, Lutherans, Arminianism and Calvinism.

T: "total depravity"
Calvinism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

Lutheranism: Agrees with Calvinism on total depravity

Arminianism: Man after the Fall can cooperate with God’s grace in conversion

U: "unconditional election"
Calvinism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation and the others (reprobates) for damnation.

Lutheranism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.

Arminianism: Before the world was created, God foresaw those who would choose Him of their own free will and elected them to salvation

L: "limited atonement"
Calvinism: Jesus only died for the elect, objectively atoning for their sin, but he did not die for the sins of the reprobates. Reformed churches have historically taught a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect"--those who have been predestined from eternity to believe in Christ and will spend eternity with Him in heaven.

Lutheranism: Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. Lutherans believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time--even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ.

Arminianism: Christ died to give all the possibility to be saved.

I: "irresistable grace"
Calvinism: In all of God's outward actions (preaching, baptism, etc.) there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

Lutheranism: The question is not answerable; for the elect grace will irresistably triumph, yet those who reject Christ have rejected that Grace; yet the grace is the same.

Arminianism: God gives in His outward actions the same grace to all; this grace can be resisted by all.

P: "perseverance of the saints" (sort of like "once saved, always saved.")
Calvinism: Salvation cannot be lost. Those who have truly put their faith in Christ may temporarily lose the evidence of their faith and even live for a time in grave and unrepentant sin, without losing their salvation.

Lutheranism: Salvation can be lost through mortal sin and unbelief, but this legal warning does not cancel the Gospel promise of election

Arminianism: Salvation can be lost through unrepentant sin and unbelief.

From my own perspectives and beliefs, this is how I believe:

1. I agree with Calvinism and Lutheranism: Man after the Fall has no ability to cooperate with God's grace in conversion

2. I agree with Lutheranism that before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.

3. I agree with Calvinism and Lutheranism (mixed) that Christ’s death objectively atoned for all the sin of the world; by believing we receive this objective atonement and its benefits. I disagree with Lutheranism's believe that when Jesus died on the cross He atoned for the sins of all people of all time, even those who have not or will not come to faith in Christ. However, Reformed churches have historically taught a "limited atonement" of Christ, i.e., that Christ's death on the cross atoned only for the sins of "the elect".

4. I agree with Calvinism that in all of God's outward actions, there is an outward call which all receive, yet there is also a secret effectual calling which God gives to the elect alone. This effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable.

5. I agree with Calvinism that salvation cannot be lost. Those who have truly put their faith in Christ may temporarily lose the evidence of their faith and even live for a time in grave and unrepentant sin, without losing their salvation.

Jim,

Sorry to take so long to respond to your post, but things have been a bit busy here on the farm. I have done some reading concerning Arminianism, Calvinism, and Semipelagianism on Wikipedia, and also did some searching in the Mennonite Encyclopedia. I think the following from the Mennonite Enclclopedia probably summarizes best what I found:

Mennonites have been historically Arminian in their theology whether they distinctly espoused the Arminian viewpoint or not. They never accepted Calvinism either in the Swiss-South German branch or in the Dutch-North German wing. Nor did any Mennonite confession of faith in any country teach any of the five points of Calvinism. However, in the 20th century, particularly in North America, some Mennonites, having come under the influence of certain Bible institutes and the literature produced by this movement and its schools, have adopted the Calvinist doctrine of the perseverance of the saints or "once in grace always in grace." In doing so, they have departed from the historic Arminianism of the Anabaptist-Mennonite movement. To some extent the extreme doctrine of total depravity has also won entrance here and there, although nowhere do the other three Calvinistic articles seem to have won acceptance.
In Holland the Mennonites came into close and friendly contact with the Arminian movement, both in its Remonstrant organized form, and its Collegiant form. The seminary that the Remonstrants established in 1634 furnished Mennonites the opportunity for a theological training for the ministry before the establishment of the Amsterdam seminary in 1735. Relations between the two groups have always been friendly. When in 1619 the Dutch government prohibited church services of the Remonstrants and banished their leaders, owing to the lack of preachers a movement originated in favor of the lay sermon, which found organized expression in the society of Collegiants sometimes called Rijnsburgers, because they had their chief center at Rijnsburg near Leiden. Members of the Reformed, Remonstrant and Mennonite groups could join a local Collegiant society without forfeiting membership in their own denomination. Since many of the Mennonite ideas, such as adult baptism, rejection of war, simplicity in clothing and life, practical Christian love, etc., were shared by the Collegiants, the contact between the two groups was close, intimate and continuous. Through this channel also the Mennonites became more familiar with Arminian ideas. Dutch Mennonitism in the late 19th century adopted a modernistic Unitarian theology that went far beyond historical Arminianism. However, the Mennonites of West Prussia, Russia, South Germany, France, Switzerland and North America remained on an evangelical Arminian basis, not because they adopted an official Arminian terminology, but because in essence this was what they have always held from the beginning. So far as is known the writings of Arminius and of the Arminians were never read to any extent by the Mennonites outside of Holland, who remained basically readers of the Bible and of Menno Simons.
Taken from: Bender, Harold S. "Arminianism." Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online. 1953. Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online. Retrieved 28 July 2008 http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/A757.html


I would argue with your statement that there are three major doctrines of salvation beliefs. The three you listed are the three major ones espoused by the Protestant Reformers, but one should also include Pelagians, and Semipelagians, as well as note that many of the early Greek Fathers hold to a synergistic relationship between man and God to effect salvation.

In Christ,
Russ
 
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