Looking for context of papal quote

[BelindaP]

I'm sure some of you are aware of this quote, but I was not. I am involved in a theology discussion in another forum, and this quote was used to support the idea that the pope could be the antichrist.

"Don't go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me."(Pope John Paul II, Los Angeles Times, December 12, 1984)

Currently, I'm defending the pope, and my thinking is that it is taken out of context. Does anybody here have the full text of the talk from which it was taken? Thanks so much.

 

[Catrione]

Rebutting a belief widely shared by Protestants and a growing number of Roman Catholics, Pope John Paul II on Tuesday dismissed the "widespread idea that one can obtain forgiveness directly from God" and exhorted Catholics to confess more often to their priests...

thats all I could get on the LA Times archives without having to pay for it...

Sounds like the Holy Father was saying confession is neccessary for forgiveness

 

[a_ntv]

I'm sure some of you are aware of this quote, but I was not. I am involved in a theology discussion in another forum, and this quote was used to support the idea that the pope could be the antichrist.

the pope does not give interview to the Los Angeles Times.

So surely the Don't go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me is a personal sentence of the author of the article.

This is the abstract of the article dated 12Dec84 (the full article is at payment) Rebutting a belief widely shared by Protestants and a growing number of Roman Catholics, Pope John Paul II on Tuesday dismissed the "widespread idea that one can obtain forgiveness directly from God" and exhorted Catholics to confess more (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/675039382.html?dids=675039382:675039382&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Dec+12%2C+1984&author=DON+A+SCHANCHE&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(1886-Current+File)&edition=&startpage=B11&desc=No+Forgiveness+%27Directly+From+God%2C%27+Pope+Says)

I checked the Vatican site, and the only relevant document is the APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION [SIZE=+1]RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE [/SIZE]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia_en.html, dated in Rome on 02 Dec 1984 (and so probably printed some days later)

Here an excerpt:
31 It would therefore be foolish, as well as presumptuous, to wish arbitrarily to disregard the means of grace and salvation which the Lord has provided and, in the specific case, to claim to receive forgiveness while doing without the sacrament which was instituted by Christ precisely for forgiveness.

The pope highlighted again the need of confession as the way decided by the Lord, who gave the Church, and only to the Church (the 11), the power to forgive the sins: John 20:23 : If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

 

[AnnieG]

This quote doesn't make sense. We should and must go to God for forgiveness. Even if we go to confession we go to God. It is God who listens our confession, the priest is only his servant. And the forgiveness comes from God, too.

 

[BelindaP]

I agree with you on that. That's why I was wondering about the quote. I might just have to pay for the article to get the whole story.

Unfortunately, this "quote" is being used on a lot of websites to support their views.

 

[SolomonVII]

Reconciliation is a sacrament as far as in know. It is not as if Protestants baptise themselves or give themselves the eucharist, or marry themselves, or give themselves a Christian funeral. The sacraments are understood to come through the Church-for most Protestants too.

So why would it be any different for the sacrament of Reconciliation?

This does display a secret fear of Protestants though, especially in the early years where it was universally understood that the sacraments were dispensed through the Church and were likewise indispensably connected to personal salvation.

Once they were no longer a part of the Church, would the sacraments still be valid? ...It was a pretty big fear in the early years of the Reformation.

It is a question that gnaws at Protestants that still believe in the sacraments, and has caused others to deny the scramental nature of the church (almost) altogether.

When I looked up the quotation, the link was to some Ian Paisley, or something like that.

This was pretty viscious stuff. I think you may be grabbing the devil by the tail if you get into any discussion with the people who are using him as a source.

 

[BelindaP]

the pope does not give interview to the Los Angeles Times.

So surely the Don't go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me is a personal sentence of the author of the article.

This is the abstract of the article dated 12Dec84 (the full article is at payment) Rebutting a belief widely shared by Protestants and a growing number of Roman Catholics, Pope John Paul II on Tuesday dismissed the "widespread idea that one can obtain forgiveness directly from God" and exhorted Catholics to confess more (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes...No+Forgiveness+'Directly+From+God,'+Pope+Says)

I checked the Vatican site, and the only relevant document is the APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION [SIZE=+1]RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE [/SIZE]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia_en.html, dated in Rome on 02 Dec 1984 (and so probably printed some days later)

Here an excerpt:
31 It would therefore be foolish, as well as presumptuous, to wish arbitrarily to disregard the means of grace and salvation which the Lord has provided and, in the specific case, to claim to receive forgiveness while doing without the sacrament which was instituted by Christ precisely for forgiveness.

The pope highlighted again the need of confession as the way decided by the Lord, who gave the Church, and only to the Church (the 11), the power to forgive the sins: John 20:23 : If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

OK, I went and bought the article. You are right. It was in reference to the above-cited Vatican document. Also, when you look at the newspaper article itself, you can see that it is being misrepresented by the websites that are quoting it. I will quote the relevant part of the article here so that you guys can use it for future reference if it comes up again.

Reference:

No Forgiveness 'Directly From God,' Pope Says​

DON A SCHANCHE​

Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File);​

​

​

Dec 12, 1984; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Los Angeles Times (1881 - 1985), pg. B11

Quote:
VATICAN CITY--Rebutting a belief widely shared by Protestants and a growning number of Roman Catholics, Pope John Paul II on Tuesday dismissed the "wide-spread idea that one can obtain forgiveness directly from God" and exhorted Catholics to confess more often to their priests.
The pontiff issued a major document calling for "the restoration of a proper sense of sin" in a world "shattered to its very foundations" by evils ranging from social discrimination to nuclear stockpiling.
Officially called an "apostolic exhortation," the 138-page papal document focuses on the sacrament of reconciliation and penance, informally known as confession--an obligation of all Catholics that has increasingly fallen into disuse, especially in the industrial countries.
Changing lifestyles, particularly in advanced countries such as the United States, have lead some priests to administer "general absolution" of whole congregations instead of hearing traditional individual confessions.
But the Pope warned against that trend saying, "This form cannot become an ordinary one." The papal document said general absolution can be applicable only in special circumstances or in places where there is no permanent priest. "Confession of sins must ordinarily be individual and not collective, just as sin is a deeply personal matter," the papal document said.
"The restoration of a proper sense of sin is the first way of facing the grave spiritual crisis looming over man today," the pontiff wrote, linking many of the evils of the modern world to sin "in man's inmost self."

Thanks so much for your help. I've got my reference. Now I have to go tilt at windmills. ​

 

[BelindaP]

Well, actually the guy who posted it in this forum was bringing it up because it confused him. I think that this will convince him of the error of the argument.

Yeah, I'm not going to go against the whole Ian Paisley movement. Although, many of my family are Seventh Day Adventists. I can set them straight at least.

 

[SecretOfFatima]

Is not the first time that someone has taken the HOLY Father out of context... Read this

John 20: 19-23

"Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them:

Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

When he had said this, He breathed on them and he said to them:

Receive ye the Holy Spirit.
Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

(Our Lord thereby imparted to the Apostles the power and authority to give us sacramental absolution of sins.)

for more material take a look here
http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/booklets.php
and there is also 1 MP3 in the same site discussing this topic in great detail, see link below.
http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download

If you need to track down and compare old information on the web against newer versions then use a site called internet archive
where you can view what a page or site looked like in the pasted, lets take a look at the vatican site for example when viewed via this site.
click on the http://www.vatican.va site.

If anyone is using the events behind Fatima to attack the HOLY Father then this is because the work of Father Gruner, and I can give you some more advice on this, but would take to long to explain now.

Let me know if you need further help

 

[thereselittleflower]

EVen though there is a 'cite'. it appears to be spurious . . . also, is the LA Times. . . .

We run into spurious quotes all the time . . Demand the context from the person who gave you the quote . . that will shut them up usually . .

When defending the Church against those who would use such things to misrepresent our faith, put the burden of proof on them to prove what they are saying is true . .

If they provide such a "quote", put the burden of proof on them to prove it is an authentic quote . . put the burden of proof on them to provide the context, which they should be able to provide if they actually got the quote from a dependable 1st source.

See, don't take the burden of proof on something like this . . the burden is theirs . . all you need do is question it . . .

.