Look up?

James_Lai said:

So the physical and spiritual planes exist in same 4-D spacetime , it’s just the spiritual isn’t detectable (or mostly undetectable) for us now , or spiritual has more dimensions?

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I think that's above both of our pay grades to answer.

James_Lai said:

Well, I don’t mean light or energy that propagates in space as electromagnetic radiation in a physical sense, though it could maybe both. NDEer bodies are static, but it’s their “souls” that move at high rate of speed as they experience it or they could be entering another dimension. The initial stage of NDE when the “soul” comes out of body, they’re able to see/hear the physical plane but can’t interact with it themselves. So the physical doesn’t seem to be conpletely parallel to the spiritual

Detecting not by our sensory organs of course, though that is a possibility too, but by our “soul” again - and translated to the mind and becomes a “revelation”. If it bypasses or doesn’t reach the mind, could be taken as “intuition” or deep subconscious knowledge.

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I was trying to say what you said. And I used the word "if". The soul/spirit remains at death, but in a different plane or dimension. If God is present within and around us but cannot be physically detected, so is our soul. In an NDE the soul is "detached" but is still present.

All of the above is nothing but silly ideas, it all might work very differently not for our faculties even to begin to understand

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Not so silly; it is just as reasonable and valid as other explanations.

Dark matter and dark energy, there are alternative theories in physics that do not necessitate them. For example, slowing-down time hypothesis, when the Universe expands at constant rate without acceleration.

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I wasn't trying to explain dark matter and energy or get into a scientific discussion, but used them as an analogy for things that may exist but are not readily detectable.

James_Lai said:

Hello.

The other day I was listening to a great sermon, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, “let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven”…

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up? Our round rock of a planet is constantly spinning and flying around the Sun and the Sun is flying around the centre of the Milky Way galaxy and so on.

Should we not look into our hearts? Isn’t it where the depths of God are hidden?

Otherwise, “up” is a grave misconception and dangerous error? As there’s no such thing as “up”, it’s nothing but a flat-earth optical illusion…

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The "depths of God" are NOT in our hearts. Our hearts, God says to us in His word, are "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." (Jeremiah 17:9) Jesus said out of the hearts of human beings come "evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft and so on. (Matthew 15:19) Proverbs 28:26 says that "he who trusts in his own heart is a fool."

God is not us. We "bear His image" insofar as we are self-aware, possess a moral sense, can plan for the future, philosophize, invent, appreciate things like beauty, justice, truth, etc.. But we are far, far, far more unlike God than like Him, as the contingent beings we are, small, weak, corrupt and ignorant. Yes, God touches our hearts, transforming them, ordering them according to His will and way, but the preacher is right: We don't find God ultimately within ourselves. He stands outside of us, separate from us, beyond us, but extending Himself to us, through Christ, in holy fellowship. So, in whatever direction we propose to look, turning our gaze away from ourselves is the correct thing to do.

The Holy Spirit takes up residence within the genuinely born-again believer but He never unites with the believer, fusing with them and in so doing becoming one thing. No, the Holy Spirit resides within us as a distinct, separate occupant; we are His temple (1 Corinthians 6:19-20), His vessel (2 Timothy 2:21), but He no more becomes us or we him, than a person sitting in a car, driving it, becomes the car, or the car becomes its driver. The Spirit works upon us and through us but remains always distinct from us, our Helper and God.

I have to respectfully disagree. God is among us and/or within us. What we do to and for others we do to Jesus (God). Which means God is within them, is within everyone. God can't be someplace away or outside of us, because then God would have physical limitations (which is what the Jews in the early parts of the Hebrew Bible thought). If the Holy Spirit resides within us, then by Christian definition God resides within us.

We also cannot limit God's presence to born-again believers. Jesus points out many instances where those who were not members of the "chosen people" were acting on the Spirit within them. No, the Spirit is NOT us, but the Spirit is within us. In my personal interpretation we call that our soul, which everyone has. Most of us fail to connect with it, to activate it. It requires an action, not just a belief. One could say I believe in the light from that lamp, but it only works if we switch it on.

Yes, our "heart" can contain evil, but it is not limited to that. Goodness and light is also contained within us. To see us as only evil is an extremely dim view of humanity. We generate that goodness when we respond to God (Jesus and Spirit), when we open ourselves to the presence of God within us.

Martinius said:

I have to respectfully disagree. God is among us and/or within us. What we do to and for others we do to Jesus (God).

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Scripture, please.

God is not in all of us; that is, His Spirit does not dwell in everyone. God is imminent in His Creation, yes, but He is not His Creation any more than the painting an artist paints - even if it is a self-portrait - is actually the artist. God is entirely distinct from His Creation though He is omnipresent within it.

Martinius said:

Which means God is within them, is within everyone.

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Nope. God is not in every person, though we are all of us bearing His image. Only in His redeemed, born-again children does God dwell by His Spirit and in no others. All others, the Bible indicates, are the enemies of God, rebellious sinners separated from God by their sin, standing constantly under His holy wrath (John 3:36; Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3; Colossians 1:21; Romans 3:23) and desperately in need of a Savior.

Martinius said:

God can't be someplace away or outside of us, because then God would have physical limitations (which is what the Jews in the early parts of the Hebrew Bible thought). If the Holy Spirit resides within us, then by Christian definition God resides within us.

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God is everywhere, omnipresent, but He is not in everything in the sense in which the Holy Spirit is within born-again disciples of Christ. That God chooses not to be in everything in the spiritually-regenerating way He is in His own children does not mean He has a limit imposed upon Him by some superior, external power which would mean He was not truly God, but is a state-of-affairs that He wills to be, a constraint or limit He puts on Himself. In the same way, God is not in a rock, or insect, or mop; He is not in a tree, or mushroom, or lava flow. He has created and sustains these things by His power but this does not require that He exist within them such that we could worship any of these things and simultaneously be worshiping God.

I've already explained the matter of the indwelling Holy Spirit and nothing you've observed above defeats or rebuts my comments, as far as I can see.

Martinius said:

We also cannot limit God's presence to born-again believers. Jesus points out many instances where those who were not members of the "chosen people" were acting on the Spirit within them.

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Scripture, please.

Martinius said:

No, the Spirit is NOT us, but the Spirit is within us.

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We are in agreement, then.

Martinius said:

In my personal interpretation we call that our soul, which everyone has.

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Well, if who or what the Spirit is comes down merely to personal, subjective interpretation, then the Spirit can be anything. But this is to make the Spirit of God merely a reflection of us, to make ourselves, really, the Maker and Shaper of God. Fortunately, we have the Bible that gives us an objective, authoritative revelation of God which describes the Holy Spirit for us very well. That description, however, rather defies your personal interpretation of who and what He is.

Quick facts:

- Called the Comforter or Helper (“Paraklete” in Greek) – John 14:16; the Spirit of Christ – Romans 8:9; the Spirit of Grace – He. 10:29; Spirit of the Lord – 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.
- The third Person of the Trinity. (Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:10-11)
- He is not a force, or divine spiritual energy, but a distinct personal entity who may grieved (Ephesians 4:30), who teaches and reminds (John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:13), who speaks (Acts 8:29; 13:2), who makes decisions (Acts 15:28), who can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4), who has a mind (Romans 8:26-27), and so on.

Martinius said:

Most of us fail to connect with it, to activate it. It requires an action, not just a belief. One could say I believe in the light from that lamp, but it only works if we switch it on.

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Yeah...no.

Martinius said:

Yes, our "heart" can contain evil, but it is not limited to that.

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Did someone say that it was so limited? I didn't.

Martinius said:

Goodness and light is also contained within us.

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Not according to the Bible. We have the potential for goodness, perhaps, we possess a Moral Law "written on our hearts" by God, our consciences, and the constraints of lawful society keep us from wholesale evil, but we are not light, but, rather, full of darkness and living in the kingdom of darkness (Colossians 1:13; Ephesians 5:8).

Martinius said:

To see us as only evil is an extremely dim view of humanity.

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Hey, talk to God about this, not me. He's the One who, in His word, describes us in such unflattering ways.

I am puzzled. If God is everywhere, but not within us, then God is NOT everywhere. Can't have it both ways.

If man is intrinsically evil, then everyone, and I do mean everyone, must have been that way before Christ came to redeem them. That makes no sense. Goodness existed prior to Jesus, since we have many examples in Hebrew scripture about good (Godly) people.

It would also mean that anyone who is not a Christian, and redeemed, remains intrinsically evil. Yet there have been many non-Christians who have exhibited goodness (Godliness). And very, very many professed Christians who exhibited the worst evils.

We have both values of good and evil within us. It is what we do with them, which one we grow and nurture, which one we allow to rule our lives, that is critical. For most of us, it is some combination of the two, and in some people we see where evil dominates, and in others where goodness prevails.

James_Lai said:

Also evil and good what are those. For example, dictatorship. Very bad. Oppression. Nobody enjoys it. Remove such power? Chaos and death results. Is it good? Etc Also what's good for one is evil for another. Jesus (Joshua) of the OT destroyed the Canaanites, even their cattle. I bet they didn’t view him as good… But he’s a hero?

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The Hebrew scriptures are full of horrific stories of invasion, devastation and genocide, ordered or approved by a "loving" God. Many of the "heroes" of that scripture would have been arrested, tried and convicted, and some executed, for the crimes and evil they perpetrated, if that had occurred today.

Yes, remove a dictator suddenly and chaos can occur in the vacuum. And the result is usually just another dictatorship. That is the triumph of evil over other evil. Even revolutionaries with good intentions usually succumb to the temptations of power. There are some, but not enough, examples of where authoritarian oppression are eventually overcome. In some cases, it is still a work in progress.

Martinius said:

I am puzzled. If God is everywhere, but not within us, then God is NOT everywhere. Can't have it both ways.

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God is present everywhere but He is not in everything. The former doesn't require the latter. When I am present in a room I am not in everything in the room in the sense that I am the stuff of the walls, the floor and the ceiling. This is what the Bible indicates of God's presence in Creation, too. He is in Creation, but He is not Creation itself. If He were, we'd have to say every rock, branch and bit of mold was God, which Scripture denies.

Deuteronomy 4:25-28
25 “When you father children and children’s children, and have grown old in the land, if you act corruptly by making a carved image in the form of anything, and by doing what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, so as to provoke him to anger,
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will soon utterly perish from the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. You will not live long in it, but will be utterly destroyed.
27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you.
28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

If God is in everything when we say God is everywhere, is He not, then, in the very idols He forbids in the passage above? If God is in everything in order to be everywhere, then we have to concede that He would also be in these idols He has forbidden His Chosen People to fashion. That would make these idols divine, however - along with dog poo, and trash piles, and rotting corpses - so why forbid them? Is God forbidding Himself? And what about the fires of Molech that consumed children? Isn't God in the fire? If God must be in everything to be present everywhere, then even Molech contains God. Do you see the problem with thinking "God everywhere" means "God in everything"? I do.

Martinius said:

If man is intrinsically evil, then everyone, and I do mean everyone, must have been that way before Christ came to redeem them. That makes no sense. Goodness existed prior to Jesus, since we have many examples in Hebrew scripture about good (Godly) people.

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??? Have you not read the story of Noah and the Flood?

Genesis 6:5-8
5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Being intrinsically evil doesn't necessarily mean a person will exercise that evil to its fullest degree or that an intrinsically evil person is incapable of performing a good act. Job, for example, was a good man, but he had to confess:

Job 42:2-6
2 “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

In the light of the excellency and supremacy of God, Job could see his profound corruption more clearly and, as a a result, declared that he "despised himself." There are all sorts of other instances in the OT where sin-cursed, evil people do good things, where they are not as evil as they could be, but these instances don't at all negate what God says about the human heart:

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Martinius said:

We have both values of good and evil within us. It is what we do with them, which one we grow and nurture, which one we allow to rule our lives, that is critical.

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This is a dualistic philosophy arising from pagan religions and secular perspectives, not from God's word.

Martinius said:

For most of us, it is some combination of the two, and in some people we see where evil dominates, and in others where goodness prevails.

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Well, while it is possible for evil people to do morally-right things, it is not possible for these acts to be acceptable to God outside of a motive of love for Him. Paul the apostle explained this in his letter to the Corinthian Christians, pointing out to them that, no matter what they said, or knew, or did, if they did not act from a motive of love, first for God (Matthew 22:36-38) and then for others, they're knowledge, words and deeds were spiritually useless.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

God's standard for humanity isn't merely that they do things that are morally-right, but that they do such things from a single, right love-of-God motive. Without this love-motive, however moral we think we have been, our moral acts are rejected by Him. We aren't, then, constantly in a process of finding an inner balance between good and evil, or at war within ourselves to establish the dominance of a "good Self" over a "bad Self." This is not at all the picture the Bible paints of the state-of-affairs governing human nature.

Dog Or Master?

aiki said:

When I am present in a room I am not in everything in the room in the sense that I am the stuff of the walls, the floor and the ceiling.

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The reason is simple: You are not God.

I say we agree to disagree. I will retain my optimistic view of mankind in regards to good and evil, as I observe much more good from my fellow humans than I do evil. And that includes those I know of many faiths or of no faith.

I will see God as infinite and omnipresent. To me, that is the only way that God can be God.

And I will move on from this thread. Thanks for the dialogue. Peace and blessings.

Martinius said:

The reason is simple: You are not God.

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As I pointed out, thinking of God as being in everything creates serious problems logically and doctrinally for the Christian person. My analogy wasn't trying to argue that I was in the same category with God, but that it is possible to be present in a place without constituting the material substance of that place. If a human can be in a place in this way, God certainly can. And, so far, you haven't offered anything that establishes that God must infuse everything with Himself in order for Him to be omnipresent.

Martinius said:

I say we agree to disagree. I will retain my optimistic view of mankind in regards to good and evil, as I observe much more good from my fellow humans than I do evil. And that includes those I know of many faiths or of no faith.

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Well, you're always entitled to your opinion, of course. But if you're making assertions about what God has said in His word, the Bible, then your "optimistic view" is plainly and repeatedly contradicted.

Martinius said:

I will see God as infinite and omnipresent. To me, that is the only way that God can be God.

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If you want a God made in your image, so be it. But this god only exists in your reflection in the mirror.

Martinius said:

And I will move on from this thread. Thanks for the dialogue. Peace and blessings.

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Sure. Truth and fellowship.