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Propitiation means that God's wrath is satisfied. So if His wrath is satisfied for every person who ever lived, that would mean that there's no basis to judge anyone because we've all been judged in Christ.And you don't do the same? What about the verses I brought up?
No doubt you believe John was talking to both Jew and Gentile as in reference to the WHOLE world. But I get no indication in the text about that. John did not seem concerned with Jewish believers versus Gentile believes. John meant what he said. He was comparing believers with the actual entire world in 1 John 2:2.
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I try not to. When I deal with a verse that seems obscure or appears to cut against what we think is correct, I never say "Doesn't matter," for instance.And you don't do the same?
Why isn't it true? Do you not believe that Christ died for those who would believe?According to God's Word, if you believe in Calvinism in the fact that you think man cannot come to God, then it would not be a true statement and would be techincally a lie, ... yes.
God wants salvation for all people.
When you preach that people can be saved, you do not pick some people out of the crowd.
Salvation is for all.
God is not a respecter of persons.
Now, will everyone repent? No, of course not.
God knows who are His and who are not His.
But that does not mean the free gift was not available to all.
Salvation is not for some special elite club.
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Hello Jason.Please take a look the list of verses I posted to you a little more closely. You will notice the words "free" and "will" and "choose" in there. These things cannot be if we did not have any ability to choose freely, etc.
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I'm not sure that "would have" means "wants."According to God's Word, if you believe in Calvinism in the fact that you think man cannot come to God, then it would not be a true statement and would be techincally a lie, ... yes.
God wants salvation for all people.
I most certainly do believe that.Why isn't it true? Do you not believe that Christ died for those who would believe?
A natural belief? So you admit to being a Pelagian?I most certainly do believe that.
However, I am getting the impression that you define "belief" as something that is the result of something God must do and not man.
Man cannot come to God without a regeneration.
Man cannot technically believe without this regeneration.
Unless of course you are a Synergist who believes they must first cooperate with God in order for the regeneration to take place.
But if you believe otherwise and hold to the Calvinistic view: Well, then, your definiton on the word "believe" is not true then.
It is not a natural belief on the part of man to simply choose God of their own free will.
Their belief is not really a belief but it is some kind of automatic response that was done in them by God.
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Hello Jason.
I really appreciate that you are taking the time to respond.
#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"
We know what the nation of Israel chose the calf.
That is why Jesus was sent Jason, we cannot choose the truth ourselves.
We must be drawn, our eyes must be opened, we must first be convicted.
Please insert the Holy Spirit into all your replies, the Holy Spirit simply
points you toward the Christ, that is while you are staring at the calf.
I said God draws a person. I also believe God makes it possible for man to repent. But I believe this power and ability is available to all people freely in this life. So it is not like God is sitting on the side lines or anything. God is working on a person's heart for them to repent. But once they do repent and believe in Jesus then God regenerates their spirit and gives them a new heart. But from there, they still need to endure in their faith to the End.A natural belief? So you admit to being a Pelagian?
Yep. You are s Pelagian.Also, I am not really "believing" if it is was something God did in me to do it. So if you tell people to believe in Jesus Christ so as to be saved, then you are not exactly being truthful because you are not defining "belief" correctly to a person. For the Calvinist believes that "belief" is some kind of automatic response of what they would do naturally as a result of having been regenerated by God. In fact, it is futile to even tell them what to do. If they are regenerated, they are going to naturally believe eventually anyways. You do not need to tell them to believe in Jesus. In fact, you cannot tell them to believe. Because it is God who is the One who makes them believe.
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Hello Jason.I said God draws a person. I also believe God makes it possible for man to repent. But I believe this power and ability is available to all people freely in this life. So it is not like God is sitting on the side lines or anything. God is working on a person's heart for them to repent. But once they do repent and believe in Jesus then God regenerates their spirit and gives them a new heart. But from there, they still need to endure in their faith to the End.
As for Pelagians: I heard the term before, but I am not sure what Pelagians believe.
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Hello Hammster.Yep. You are s Pelagian.
Hello Jason.
Even the endurance you mentioned will be a gift from above, freely given to us.
You will never be permitted to boast about anything you actually did, regarding your
salvation in Christ. The Christ is the one who reconciles us, Christ is the one who transfers
us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.
The Christian Gospel is all about the Gospel of Grace, Christ first and Christ last.
The Scriptures say faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23). This would include the Living Word; And it would also include the Written Word, too (See 1 Peter 1:24-25).
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Yes, consider your calling!Hello Jason.
Even the endurance you mentioned will be a gift from above, freely given to us.
You will never be permitted to boast about anything you actually did, regarding your
salvation in Christ. The Christ is the one who reconciles us, Christ is the one who transfers
us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.
The Christian Gospel is all about the Gospel of Grace, Christ first and Christ last.
You seemed confident enough to make the statements.
Romans 10:17Would you please stop making a bad name of Calvinism by being so unaccountably rude? You know that my responses to Marvin were solely because he started things. I have no disrespect toward Calvinists.
That said, although I can make an argument based on scripture, you seem to be indicating the standard by which God chooses things. I don't know that; I don't even know how a microwave works, so I'm sure I can't make any points on how God acts in specific situations. Scripture, other than making general statements about God being love, offering salvation to all, etc. I also follow Jason's point that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God -- but that also is both a general statement as well as a pretty vague one (what does it mean to hear? What does it mean to say it comes by the word of God?).
Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Simply faith comes by hearing God speak to you.
To be hearing we have to have the ears to hear, which is why it is said,
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
And that ability to hear God is a gift
Brother,
I have no trouble with the idea of election. Election is the doctrine which the above quote by Calvin addresses.
My problem is with the concept of limited atonement as taught by many or even most 5-point Calvinists today.
I have posted a great many quotes by John Calvin in the "REFORMED" forum here. I have shown from Calvin's own words that he did not believe in limited atonement as normally taught in 5-point Calvinism.
Most Calvinists seem to be in shock when they actually read what John Calvin himself said about the subject of the extent of the atonement in his writings.
I don't have the time nor the inclination to revisit the subject on this thread.
Quite frankly the ones who have refuted me on the subject in the "ask a Calvinist" section simply went away and reconsidered their stance on whether limited atonement is actually representative of John Calvin's beliefs. None can refute what he himself said on the subject.
I taught so called 5-point Calvinism for a great many years before I came to realize that it had flaws just as did other systems of theology that are preached from "the other side".
The 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) came along long after Calvin's death and IMO he would roll over in his grave to see limited atonement as it is usually taught come to represent what he believed.
To be fair however - , John Calvin seems to have changed his mind a few times on this subject over the years and it is reflected in his writings.
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