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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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Hammster

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Whenever scripture refers to people as sheep, it's always in reference to God's people. I'm sure Jesus knew that. And since He frequently used OT references that His hearers could identify, I'm sure those listening picked up on it, too.

One of the keys to proper hermeneutics is that we need to understand it the way the original hearers and readers understood it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Whenever scripture refers to people as sheep, it's always in reference to God's people.
Please support this arbitrary statement with Scripture. And again, context is key to every verse. Jesus clearly differentiated between HIS sheep and those NOT of His sheep, all the while stating that He would die for THE sheep.

I'm sure Jesus knew that. And since He frequently used OT references that His hearers could identify, I'm sure those listening picked up on it, too.
Uh, what is there in John 10 from the OT?

One of the keys to proper hermeneutics is that we need to understand it the way the original hearers and readers understood it.
Right. Jesus said that anyone who enters the gate (Himself) will be saved: v.8 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Just 2 verses before v.9 He said this: "So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep."

So, Jesus is the door of THE sheep. And if anyone enters through Him, he will be saved. Not all sheep will be saved, IN THIS CONTEXT. Only the ones who enter through Him, a reference to faith in Him, obviously.

Then, He said this in v.11: “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep", and this in v.15: “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep"

If the phrase "the sheep" refers to only believers, why did Jesus make these statements:
v.14 - “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own (sheep)and My own (sheep) know Me,
v.16 - “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."
v.26 - "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

Jesus noted sheep that were HIS, sheep that were NOT of HIS. And He would die for THE sheep. Not His sheep.

If Jesus was going to die only for those who would believe, or as Calvinists prefer, "the elect", why didn't He just say He would die for HIS own sheep? He identified HIS sheep, other sheep of HIS, and those not of HIS sheep. And He would die for THE sheep. All of them. Not just His.

The personal pronouns that Jesus used clearly indicate that He didn't just die for "His own" sheep. He died for THE sheep.
 
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sdowney717

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Right, to those people of that time, clearly sheep belonged to the shepherd who led and guided them.
Christ claims other sheep not of this fold that He MUST go and get, so that their will be one flock with one shepherd.
Not two flocks or three, etc... One bride of Christ joined to the one and only Christ. So those other sheep that He has implies ownership, but not of those of the world. These other sheep are in the world spread abroad but they are not of the world since they belong to Him. And those other sheep do not even know that they are His other sheep which He has, but they will all of them find out their Shepherd is Christ.
 
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Hammster

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Exactly. Anyone can do a word search on "sheep" to verify. Some won't be convinced. Can't do much there.
 
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AndOne

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True - in my thinking I always considered the sheep "who are not of this fold" the elect among the Gentiles. That fits the context better than the crazy idea that there can be unsaved sheep.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello all.

The following extract is for any Calvinist to explain.

Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive,
were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root
of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are
arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root
supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I
might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief,
but you stand by your belief. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did
not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then
the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s
kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted
in, for God is able to graft them in again.

How could Paul ever utter the following statement, 'if you continue in His
kindness
; otherwise you also will be cut off'. This statement Paul has made
is unsound, given that these folk have been predestined to salvation.
 
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com7fy8

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Hi, K Lute David For me it is sound; it means that if I do not continue in God's kindness I will be cut off. I stand warned. It is sound to warn us so we do not take our salvation for granted. If we are saved, we are not free to just do as we jolly well please. It is meant so we "don't go there"; His word is able to succeed in keeping us from doing what His word says not to do. God is able to succeed in us > Philippians 2:13, Philippians 1:6. If you have a child and you tell your child what will happen if he or she jumps off a cliff . . . also, it is "likely" you will make sure your little sweetie-cutie does not get curious to jump off and discover what you mean!

The main thing about Biblical predestination, by the way . . . I would say . . . is that we are destined "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (in Romans 8:29) So, predestination is not only about who is in control of who gets saved. And if anyone believes he or she is predestined, but is not becoming more and more like Jesus . . . the person is not getting into all that we are predestined to > Hebrews 12:4-11 is very clear how God's predestined must seek Him for correction, and "if you are without chastening, you are illegitimate and not sons". Our Father's correction brings us to be in His own love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness", and so we are "partakers of His holiness" . . . all which we have and enjoy in the correction of His love's perfection >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Through this scripture I see that our real assurance of salvation is how God is curing our nature in His love, so we become more and more "as He is" . . . right "in this world." So, this is included in being predestined . . . in this life . . . now . . . not procrastinating until after we die. Our assurance, then, is not only doctrine or a prayer we said or being baptized with water and copy-catting what a group says to do. But our assurance is mainly in the correction of His love's perfection

Our Father does not fail in this; but I "wonder" how many of us have been thinking to seek this, either with our so-called "free wills" or with our predestination belief system.

But ones in ego can be very concerned about if they control things. And so, for them predestination can be only an issue of if we humans can control things. We need our attention, mainly, I would say, to how the Bible says to become like Jesus and how God's love perfects us so we are ready to "have boldness in the day of judgment".

Oh yes . . . and we need to feed on how Isaiah guarantees that "the LORD will guide you continually", in Isaiah 58:11.

By the way . . . if you have trusted in Christ, you are not perfect in this; but we trust You, Father, to continue with us, please, and thank You so much, in the name of Your own Son Jesus ! ! ! And Jesus did not give up on His disciples, even while they could be so busy with fussing and fighting about who was the greatest . . . control issues. So, grow in how Jesus does not give up on any of us; be like Jesus, not giving up on anyone

And the Bible has plenty to help us become like Jesus is pleasing to our Father > for two examples >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, in our sacrifices, we need to become sweetly pleasing to our Father, not messed and wasted in stress and haste and control seeking and self pity about not being "appreciated".

And we have plenty of scripture about how to relate in love, including >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

"Let all bitterness, anger, wrath, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ also forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, yes, in our predestination is included becoming like Jesus . . . by "forgiving one another, even as God in Christ also forgave you." God commands this; so God knows this is a realistic expectation And our Heavenly Father in us does not fail to have us do all He means by His word > Isaiah 55:11 < our destiny includes, how here Isaiah guarantees that God's word "shall accomplish" all that God pleases . . . all that which God Himself means . . . not limited to how we can understand and argue his message! So submit to God for all He is able to do in us
 
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ToBeLoved

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I believe that He is talking about the Jews being the other sheep that WILL come to Him. I think this is in reference to the end when the Jews realize that He is God.
 
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ToBeLoved

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That is not about Calvinistic predestination, that is about the Jewish believers who are still waiting for the Messiah.

'The sheep' that are not of this fold are not of Jesus. He is saying that there is no other gate to come through but through the gate that He opens and closes. These are the sheep of the Jewish peoples who do not believe the messiah is Christ.

'My sheep' are the Christians who came to God through Jesus Christ.
 
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Hammster

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Since the Jews thought they all were sheep, this makes no sense. However, if He's referring to Gentiles, it makes perfect sense.
 
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sdowney717

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Paul uses words to describe the condition of these supposed people of God, arrogant, conceited, boasting against the branches, haughty, these are all characteristics of the fleshly mind, showing they are not being spiritually minded.
'Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.'
'Do not be haughty, but fear.'

Paul is speaking to them not from God's supreme divine POV of an eternal electing love, which is always secure, but from a human POV saying they should have a reverent fear that God is at work in them, has chosen them and not to be haughty, boastful which points to them being prideful. People who truly understand God's saving grace of them won't be thinking and acting in a proud, boastful, arrogant and haughty manner.
So beware, God may cut you off from the true vine since you're not bearing the good fruit. It is like old Israel, God delivers the people out of Egypt and afterwards destroys those who do not believe. Neither do haughty, proud, boastful people believe in God's electing grace apart from anything we have said or done. They consider themselves worthy of God's grace and attack the other branches. Consider also those folk who at the judgement claimed they had done so many wonderful things for God, miracles etc..., yet Jesus tells them He never knew them and they were to depart from Him you workers of iniquity.

So they will be cut off if they do not continue in His kindness, because we stand by faith, but the faith of these people is questionable since they are not bearing good fruit. So instead of them standing by faith in Christ which means they are continuing in His kindness, they boast against the other branches, exhibit haughty attitudes and have no reverence or fear of God.
'to those who fell, severity' speaks of an unbelieving heart, one that falls away, so apostate, so not bearing good fruit, so not saved.
They may just find themselves at the judgement, that Christ never knew them, and they were in the church, but not of the church.

Of course we could talk endlessly about this, predestination and election.
What Paul is describing, the being cut off from the Christ by God since they do not bear good fruit, you can also study John 15.

John 15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Paul is warning that those who do not abide in Christ, that is to continue in the kindness of God, will be cut off the True VINE by God and cast into the fire. Apostates who do not believe do not abide in Christ and will be cut off. Unbelievers do not abide in Christ and will be cut off. Christ made everything that exists, apostate and believer and unbeliever, Satan, angels, demons, the worlds, He is their Creator. Yet He is only the Father of them that believe, only those who believe will be allowed to remain with the Creator. And all the others removed and will have no part in God and Christ and be able to eat from the Tree of Life.
 
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FreeGrace2

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True - in my thinking I always considered the sheep "who are not of this fold" the elect among the Gentiles. That fits the context better than the crazy idea that there can be unsaved sheep.
Jesus was implicit that the unbelieving Jews were not His sheep. He never suggested that they were anything other than sheep. And He would die for THE sheep, not "HIS" sheep.

IF He had said that He would die for HIS sheep, then Calvinism could prove from Scripture that He would die only for some, and not all.

Remember, the context is a sheep pen, and ONLY those who go through the gate (Himself) will be saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I believe that He is talking about the Jews being the other sheep that WILL come to Him. I think this is in reference to the end when the Jews realize that He is God.
The "others not of this fold" refers to Gentile believers.
 
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AndOne

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The context is the shepherd and the sheep - not the pen. Sorry - I completely disagree with your interpretation and think it's rediculous. Verse 4 in particular completely refutes everything you are saying.
 
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AndOne

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Verse 23 answers your own question.
 
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sdowney717

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Verse 23 answers your own question.
Yes, cut off because of unbelief.
What is interesting to me is people are cut off from the True Vine Christ due to unbelief who had never believed, unbelievers do not abide in Christ.
'Every branch in Me'
Must be an in Him we live, move and have our being thing, since He created us and gave us our life and breath and Christ made all the branches. Those branches who do not abide in Christ which includes unbelievers and apostates are cut off from the True Vine who is Christ.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Seeing the Root Vine can not bear bad fruit, for a tree is known by it's fruit and we know Christ is God and God is good, so then the True Vine Christ is the good tree that bears good fruit, there will not be bad fruit on any branches in the Christ if they abide in Christ the True Vine.
But if they do not abide in Christ, then they are pruned of, they wither and die, dying they will die.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

So just leafy greens and no fruit, Christ also cursed the fig tree, finding no fruit, shocking His disciples for it was not the season for figs and it withered and died.

Those who abide in Christ, the promise from God is they will bear the good fruit and they therefore will not be cast off and burned.
Since believers abide in Christ, they can not lose their salvation as believers will bear good fruit to God.
And since unbelievers-apostates, do not abide in Christ they will not bear fruit and will be in eternal torments.
 
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klutedavid

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Verse 23 answers your own question.
Hello AndOne.

If God has elected the chosen to salvation from all eternity, through the exertion
of His Sovereign Will. Why does Paul resort to using conditional statements
throughout his letters. For example in the following text.

"But to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also
will be cut off
." (Romans 11:22)

Paul utters the conditional statement, "if you continue in His kindness".

So why does Paul offer conditional statements regarding belief, if the option
of not believing was never an option to the elect?
 
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ladodgers6

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  1. For the record,the 5 points of Calvinism was formulation to rebut the Arminian points.There are a lot of us from the Classical Reformed Calvinist position that prefer effectual grace than irresistible grace,because of the confusion it brings.
In historic Reformation thought, the notion is this: regeneration precedes faith. We also believe that regeneration is monergistic. Now that’s a three-dollar word. It means essentially that the divine operation called rebirth or regeneration is the work of God alone. An erg is a unit of labor, a unit of work. The word energycomes from that idea. The prefix mono- means “one.” So monergism means “one working.” It means that the work of regeneration in the human heart is something that God does by His power alone—not by 50 percent His power and 50 percent man’s power, or even 99 percent His power and 1 percent man’s power. It is 100 percent the work of God. He, and He alone, has the power to change the disposition of the soul and the human heart to bring us to faith.

In addition, when He exercises this grace in the soul, He brings about the effect that He intends to bring about. When God created you, He brought you into existence. You didn’t help Him. It was His sovereign work that brought you to life biologically. Likewise, it is His work, and His alone, that brings you into the state of rebirth and of renewed creation. Hence, we call this irresistible grace. It’s grace that works. It’s grace that brings about what God wants it to bring about. If, indeed, we are dead in sins and trespasses, if, indeed, our wills are held captive by the lusts of our flesh and we need to be liberated from our flesh in order to be saved, then in the final analysis, salvation must be something that God does in us and for us, not something that we in any way do for ourselves.

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GOD’S GRACE IS SO POWERFUL THAT IT HAS THE CAPACITY TO OVERCOME OUR NATURAL RESISTANCE TO IT. —R.C. SPROUL

However, the idea of irresistibility conjures up the idea that one cannot possibly offer any resistance to the grace of God. However, the history of the human race is the history of relentless resistance to the sweetness of the grace of God. Irresistible grace does not mean that God’s grace is incapable of being resisted. Indeed, we are capable of resisting God’s grace, and we do resist it. The idea is that God’s grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. It is not that the Holy Spirit drags people kicking and screaming to Christ against their wills. The Holy Spirit changes the inclination and disposition of our wills, so that whereas we were previously unwilling to embrace Christ, now we are willing, and more than willing. Indeed, we aren’t dragged to Christ, we run to Christ, and we embrace Him joyfully because the Spirit has changed our hearts. They are no longer hearts of stone that are impervious to the commands of God and to the invitations of the gospel. God melts the hardness of our hearts when He makes us new creatures. The Holy Spirit resurrects us from spiritual death, so that we come to Christ because we want to come to Christ. The reason we want to come to Christ is because God has already done a work of grace in our souls. Without that work, we would never have any desire to come to Christ. That’s why we say that regeneration precedes faith.

I have a little bit of a problem using the term irresistible grace, not because I don’t believe this classical doctrine, but because it is misleading to many people. Therefore, I prefer the term effectual grace, because the irresistible grace of God effects what God intends it to effect.
If man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, then he can't help but sin (there is no middle ground between faith and sin).
Well understand that sinners do choose what they want.Nobody is forcing them to sin.You want to assume something without understanding that the current situation is our fault,not God's.Which seems to be the case among a lot of people who do not understand Calvinism.If you do not understand how great the Fall was and is.Then you will not understand how amazing God's grace really is.Sinners HATE the light,and LOVE the darkness.So here it is.What do sinners desire for? What do they crave for? What pleasures do they seek? Do they seek the things of God? Do they seek after God?
Therefore, according to Calvinism, man can't help but sin.
This is the fallen nature of post Fall. Do you disagree or do you think post Fall that sinners CAN OBEY the Law without a single blemish and EARN Salvation,without Christ? And why did Christ have to die in the first place,if there are innocent people?
Blame implies freedom, such that a person can only be blamed for what he's free to accept or reject. I.e., you can't blame a person for doing that which he can't help but do.
So its okay for a alcoholic to drunk drive and kill people on the road because they cannot help themselves,so they get a pass? Or a serial killer is pardon because of they addiction to killing?
Or child abused kids SHOULD stay in their homes,because their parents have some type of disorder? Child molesters should be allowed in our society because they are just sick people? Where is the Law here!!!!!!!! When do you hold people accountable for what they do???? That's the problem I see with other religions that do not put any emphasis on the sinful condition of sinners! Its all God's fault and not ours.So we put God on trail because its not fair for us? Why don't you look at the passages to see how God is merciful to keep putting up with us!
Calvinism holds that the individual isn't free to accept or reject God except through irresistible grace.
Its caricatures of this type that demonstrates that people just don't get it.Sinners have a free-will,and Calvin affirmed this.Because nobody forces them to sin.They sin willingly,because they do what they desire to do,which is to sin.They HATE the light (John 3).
Therefore, Calvinism shouldn't place blame on sinners, given that blame implies a freedom to accept or reject God that isn't possible without irresistible grace.
If God did not provide his Grace,we would get what we want,which is to sin. Romans 3 depicts our fallen nature as well in Ephesians 2.

No One Is Righteous

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No,not at all? For we have already charged that all,both Jews and Greeks,are under sin,10 as it written:

"None is righteous,no,not one;
11 no one understand;
no on seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside;together they have become worthless;
no does good,not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips.'
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.'
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law,so that every mouth may be stopped,and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight,since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

By Grace Through Faith

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins,in which you once walked,following the course of this world,following the prince of the power of the air,the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh,carrying out the desires of the body and the mind,and were by nature the children of wrath,like the rest of mankind.But God,being rich in mercy,because of the great love with which he loved us,even when we were dead in our trespasses,made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--and raised us up with him and seated us with him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus,so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.For by grace you have been saved through faith.And this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING;IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD,not a result of works,so that no me may boast.For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand,that we should walk in them.

Amen!!!! Now this is good news for sinners!
  1. You need to study it for yourself,because bu this whole post I know for sure you have no clue to what Calvinism is about.
  2. [*]Hold that individuals are born in a state of innocence, not in sin, and that they're blameworthy in the sense of sinning first -- but here you have an unorthodox position that rejects original sin.
    Please show me where we say that individuals are born in a state of innocence? We believe that we are born in sin.(Psalms 51:5,5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.)
  3. Hold that theology doesn't need to be logically consistent -- but here you can believe anything about God given the lack of logic with exegesis.
Wow! This is worse than I thought. Sinners are already condemned. Sinners are not innocent people who are held in captivity by force! This is their nature.And they do not want to see what they do,because the Light will expose they evil deeds,which they Love to do in the dark! Sorry but this premise of yours is not in realm of what Calvinism teaches. Go back to the drawing board and study it really hard,then you can have some insights to what we hold too.
 
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Marvin Knox

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The conclusions you draw point by point are illogical.

Point number 2 draws a conclusion that is unwarranted from point number 1.

As a result point number 3 arrives at a wrong conclusion from point number 2.

Being unable to come to salvation by his own power says nothing about the inability to sin in general.

A person needs salvation because he sins. He doesn't sin because he can't believe unto salvation.

If people went to Hell only for not believing unto salvation then your logic might be better founded. They do not, however, go to Hell only for the reason that they do not believe unto salvation. There's plenty of other sins involved to get them a one way ticket even without that factor.

Your logic is flawed from the start with the first points. The other conclusions you reach in points number 4-7 are therefore flawed as well.

The only way out of the "inconsistency" of your OP is to start it over using a proper flow of logic.
 
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