Logical Problems with Calvinism

Hello everyone in this thread.

I hope that you guys can come back and we can get back on topic. I would really like to open the discussion talking about the covenant that Jesus made with all of us and the seal of the Holy Spirit which is our guarantee of our inheritance in Christ.

ToBeLoved said:

It would do you well to read what I said. I said I believe in most people they are taught those beliefs within their church. From youth.

So your entire premise is flawed.

So. Why not respond to what I did actually say.

Click to expand...

I read everything just fine. You claim that Calvinists are Calvinists because they were taught Calvinist things by other Calvinists. And now you assume all are raised in the church then? Wrong again. My father was raised Methodist and his father was an abusive alcoholic, though they attended regularly. My father doesn't care to talk about it much, but it seems that their religion was habit. So my father decided he wasn't going to do anything that my grandfather did and decided he wasn't going to raise us in the church. There wasn't even a Bible in my home.

Looking back over the years I remember people trying to reel me in, either a youth group event or church lock out and I even attended a few masses with Catholic girlfriends. I remember laughing at the reading of Revelation during one of these Sundays, thinking how ridiculous it sounded. I rejected God and all things spiritually because I wasn't ready, for whatever reason it just wasn't my time.

It wasn't until I was 30 years old that all the seeds that were planted in years past, and a specific conversation between myself and a woman living across the street, that things began to change drastically for me. Out of nowhere I began to feel guilty about my sinful life, I was worried about my salvation, and I had so many questions. That is when I sought answers and was given a Bible, and I read the whole thing in one years time. I had such zeal and fire, I wanted to learn everything I could, so I read it through again, this time learning new things that I had missed. A lot of the questions I had regarding the changes in my life started to make sense. I realized the truth of my nature prior to this point, and why the Bible had no affect on me in my youth, and how God had set me apart at a specific time in my life, and why I began to feel guilty all of a sudden, and what God had done for me through Jesus, and that I should live for Christ who bought me with his blood. All these questions point to God's purpose and I truly began to see how little control I had in this life. It wasn't until later that I was told my understanding was in line with Reformed Theology, more specifically Calvinism.

So tell me again how I was raised a Calvinist?

ToBeLoved said:

Hello everyone in this thread.

I hope that you guys can come back and we can get back on topic. I would really like to open the discussion talking about the covenant that Jesus made with all of us and the seal of the Holy Spirit which is our guarantee of our inheritance in Christ.

Click to expand...

We're talking about logical problems with calvinism. Talk about that

True Science said:

You got it. And let me say, these Reformers Luther and Calvin didn't even get their beliefs from the Bible. Yes, they reasoned some new things from their reading of the Bible. But they already were reading the Bible alongside Augustine. They had the Augustine glasses on and then they came up with a more consistent Augustinianism. They didn't bring us back to the truth.

Click to expand...

This sounds like opinion. Strange that these guys had such an affect on Christianity. I wonder how that happened?

tulipbee said:

Go on, get on the little boat, we'll talk on the island, you first.

Click to expand...

Yeah you are definitely trolling.

GillDouglas said:

This sounds like opinion. Strange that these guys had such an affect on Christianity. I wonder how that happened?

Click to expand...

This is how it happened: The Great Falling Away. Remember Mystery Babylon (Rome) has many harlot daughters (denominations).

True Science said:

This is how it happened: The Great Falling Away. Remember Mystery Babylon (Rome) has many harlot daughters (denominations).

Click to expand...

and Who allowed these things to occur?

GillDouglas said:

and Who allowed these things to occur?

Click to expand...

The Most High.

True Science said:

Yeah you are definitely trolling.

Click to expand...

Ummm...no, that would be you....

True Science said:

The Most High.

Click to expand...

At least we can agree that all things in this world are in His hands.

GillDouglas said:

I read everything just fine. You claim that Calvinists are Calvinists because they were taught Calvinist things by other Calvinists. And now you assume all are raised in the church then? Wrong again. My father was raised Methodist and his father was an abusive alcoholic, though they attended regularly. My father doesn't care to talk about it much, but it seems that their religion was habit. So my father decided he wasn't going to do anything that my grandfather did and decided he wasn't going to raise us in the church. There wasn't even a Bible in my home.

Looking back over the years I remember people trying to reel me in, either a youth group event or church lock out and I even attended a few masses with Catholic girlfriends. I remember laughing at the reading of Revelation during one of these Sundays, thinking how ridiculous it sounded. I rejected God and all things spiritually because I wasn't ready, for whatever reason it just wasn't my time.

It wasn't until I was 30 years old that all the seeds that were planted in years past, and a specific conversation between myself and a woman living across the street, that things began to change drastically for me. Out of nowhere I began to feel guilty about my sinful life, I was worried about my salvation, and I had so many questions. That is when I sought answers and was given a Bible, and I read the whole thing in one years time. I had such zeal and fire, I wanted to learn everything I could, so I read it through again, this time learning new things that I had missed. A lot of the questions I had regarding the changes in my life started to make sense. I realized the truth of my nature prior to this point, and why the Bible had no affect on me in my youth, and how God had set me apart at a specific time in my life, and why I began to feel guilty all of a sudden, and what God had done for me through Jesus, and that I should live for Christ who bought me with his blood. All these questions point to God's purpose and I truly began to see how little control I had in this life. It wasn't until later that I was told my understanding was in line with Reformed Theology, more specifically Calvinism.

So tell me again how I was raised a Calvinist?

Click to expand...

I never said 'all'. You added that. But I feel in most cases that is true.

Notice that I said 'most' before you accuse me again of saying 'all'

True Science said:

This is how it happened: The Great Falling Away. Remember Mystery Babylon (Rome) has many harlot daughters (denominations).

Click to expand...

The great falling away that is spoken about in the New Testament is not Babylon.

Is that what you are referring to?

GillDouglas said:

and Who allowed these things to occur?

Click to expand...

Slowing something to occur is very different than orchestrating everything. You agree?

ToBeLoved said:

Slowing something to occur is very different than orchestrating everything. You agree?

Click to expand...

Can you not fathom that God ordained all things? Or are you going to go on with life believing all things are left to chance?

ToBeLoved said:

I never said 'all'. You added that. But I feel in most cases that is true.

Notice that I said 'most' before you accuse me again of saying 'all'

Click to expand...

Have you never heard that you should never ASSume anything, especially concerning other people?

Good job ignoring everything else I wrote.

GillDouglas said:

Can you not fathom that God ordained all things? Or are you going to go on with life believing all things are left to chance?

Click to expand...

I believe that through the Holy Spirit that God is drawing each one of His own to Himself.

I believe that through faith we initiate this relationship and our salvation, although after we come to God in faith He does all things.

I believe that God uses His willing children in love to do His will.

I believe that He uses us in that way. Not so much with non-believers because they do not invite Him in and God gives us free-will.

I know you will not agree, of course, but that does not change what I think and I make up my own mind.

GillDouglas said:

Have you never heard that you should never ASSume anything, especially concerning other people?

Good job ignoring everything else I wrote.

Click to expand...

Many people read the Word without spiritual insight.

I don't believe that God is held to time. He tells us that our lifetime is like a grain of sand on the beach in lieu of eternity.

The whole Calvinistic predestination is based on God foreknowing in and using time. I think holding God to time is crazy since as humans we cannot even fully understand eternity

I've read your view. Disagree most stringently.

Period. Constraining God to time is to put human limitations on Him. That's an error.

GillDouglas said:

Have you never heard that you should never ASSume anything, especially concerning other people?

Good job ignoring everything else I wrote.

Click to expand...

I've been very forthcoming. Don't be rude.

Tell me what I missed and the post # and I will go back.

For context, this is what I said:
"By definition, His children ARE saved.

Jn 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Gal 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

tulipbee said:

All elects received God based on God's own choice made before they were even born but not based on what the elects do down the road of thier life. This makes boasting Impossible. Free willer semi pelagians creates imaginary boasting from self illusioned free wills and post self destructive topics like this one.

Click to expand...

Your reference to Eph 1:4 reveals how much you've misunderstood the verse.

So, let's look at it.
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

OK, the first question is to whom does the "us" belong to? iow, who are the "us"?

Well, Paul clearly notes who the "us" are, in v.19a - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

OK. So, the "us" of v.4 is the same "us who believe" in v.19.

So, Eph 1:4 does not claim that God chooses who will believe. Rather, He chooses believers.

Next question: what did he chose believers for? That is answered in v.4b - "that we would be holy and blameless before Him".

The International Study Bible Encyclopedia describes election as being chosen for special privilige and service. There are at least (as far as I've found) 6 different categories of what the Bible describes as being "the elect" or having been elected:

Jesus Christ Isa 42:1
elect angels 1 Tim 5:21
nation of Israel Amos 3:2
NT believers Eph 1:4
the 12 disciples, which included Judas, an unbeliever John 6:70
Paul Acts 9:15

Each and every category fits the ISBE description of "election". Even Judas was chosen for special privilege (being in the presence of the Messiah) and service.

So, the phrase "that we should be holy and blameless" doesn't refer to the status as being a believer, which is the common response from Calvinists, but the PURPOSE for which God chose believers in the first place.

We know this from the other verses that say basically the same thing; that believers have been chosen to be holy.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Phil 2:15 - so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
Col 1:10 - And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God To live a life worthy of the Lord is to be holy and blameless, obviously.
Col 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed,which is idolatry. It is only by putting to death these things that believers will become holy and blameless
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

Please note that all of the phrases "holy and blameless" or "blameless and holy" are subjunctive moods and indicate that this is WHAT believers are SUPPOSED to be. Not that all of them will be. But are supposed to be.

So please don't try to argue that Eph 1:4 is God choosing who will be a believer because the phrase "holy and blameless" indicates a believer.

I've just proven from Scripture that being holy and blameless is the goal of the believer's life. It's what we are to be. As believers.

Jut for context, this is what I posted:
"This is what I posted:
"Why do some think that those who believe that God has given man freedom of choice think that free will has any inherent power?

Free will doesn't do anything. Free will is a condition of freedom to make choices.

Consequences come from what has been chosen. There are no consequences from having free will. Free will doesn't create, doesn't do.

Free will simply IS.

Can Calvinists please just understand that simple point?"

And, this is the response:

Huh? What does this have to do with my post?

So, I'll ask again: can Calvinists please just understand that simple point about free will?

This, instead of an intellectual discussion of what I said.

But this is the kind of response from those who are ignorant of the subject matter; just deny it."

And…this is your response:

tulipbee said:

Too much intellect never sends a soul to heaven either.

Click to expand...

What in the world kind of response is that to what I posted???

Where did I even mention intellect, much less too much of it? Are you even bothering to read anything I've posted, or it is just a lot easier to assume a bunch of things about my views and address all those erroneous ideas?

Why not just address what I actually post?

The problem with you is that you're not creative.

Click to expand...

Oh, I see. iow, if I were more "creative" (whatever that might mean in your mind), you'd actually engage my posts? Huh?

You fit in the dominant conversationalist listed in the psychiatric disorders. You're stiff and noncreative. Creativity is art. You need talent.

Click to expand...

This is just pathetic. And a thin veil trying to disguise your obvious inability or unwillingness to engage my views.

Please put me on ignore if that's your game.