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I don't see anyone arguing that here, however, and it's certainly not inherent in the doctrine of Eternal Security/Perseverance of the Saints.It is no different if you tell people there are no consequences to a believer's sin in the after-life. Many have already sinned and many will continue to sin with impunity as a result of such a message (i.e. OSAS).
First, she asked me if OSAS or Eternal Security can lead people into a life style of sin. I have provided testimonies to show that very fact. So it does not matter if people who believe in OSAS here are living in a lifestyle of sin or not. The fact of the matter is that many have done so as a result of OSAS.I don't see anyone arguing that here, however, and it's certainly not inherent in the doctrine of Eternal Security/Perseverance of the Saints.
I guess I see that. It's the typical Free Will POV, Protestant version, of course. I'm not persuaded, myself, that God doesn't choose his Elect and that, if we does, he will let them slip away.I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.
So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).
As I understand it, only that which you call 'OSAS Lite' is actually OSAS, although I wouldn't include the suggestion that if one is among the Elect he will be unfailingly sinless or something like that.However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are walking in holiness. I believe all other forms of OSAS are unbiblical. Anyways, there are three major types of OSAS...OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).
Does your view of Eternal Security or OSAS match up with any of the ones above?
Or is your view of Eternal Security different?
I guess I see that. It's the typical Free Will POV, Protestant version, of course. I'm not persuaded, myself, that God doesn't choose his Elect and that, if we does, he will let them slip away.
As I understand it, only that which you call 'OSAS Lite' is actually OSAS, although I wouldn't include the suggestion that if one is among the Elect he will be unfailingly sinless or something like that.
This is a contradiction. If the condition for salvation is to have done good works, then the works meet the condition for salvation. However, you go on to say that the good works are NOT done in order to be saved, that they are merely the evidence of being saved. So which is it?Second, (just so that you know): I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.
This is a contradiction. If the condition for salvation is to have done good works, then the works meet the condition for salvation. However, you go on to say that the good works are NOT done in order to be saved, that they are merely the evidence of being saved. So which is it?
This is where you misunderstand the nature of men. Men do not seek Him in their natural depraved state. The unbeliever must first be made a believer, and then they submit to God.Not a contradiction. A believer submits to God and then God then does the work thru them.
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I really think you have to confront the issues that are famously associated with Calvinism, as opposed to focusing on what some people who are reputed to be Calvinists, or actually are Calvinists but not well attuned to Calvinist theology, do or say.In fact, speaking of contradictions: Well, I highly encourage Calvinists here to challenge their faith and read thru contradictions that Calvinists have made at this link here:
http://blog.savetheperishing.com/114-contradictions-from-calvinists/
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Well, I refuted your case and showed that your theories of Scripture do not stack up. And yes, there is nothing more to say.Well, I made my case with Scripture and there is really nothing more to say.
Coming from one who requests a "real world example" but meant only a parable, which isn't real world at all, and who rejects actual real world examples from Scripture itself.If you are wanting to see something in the Bible that is not specifically there, no verse or words are going to change your mind about that if you are only wanting to see what you desire to see.
The error of your view of OSAS is not my problem, only yours. The proper view has been thoroughly explained with Scripture as support for it.I say this because I do not find your belief to be moral or good in any way because I believe OSAS makes for an allowance for sin (whether it be a little bit of sin or a lot of sin) when one can clearly overcome sin by the Sanctification process (According to God's Word).
I've already done that (proved that you are really wrong), and you've already rejected the truth. As you said, there is nothing more to say.This is why I want you to illustrate the goodness of OSAS in the form of a parable like the one's Jesus used that does not mention any specific names, or places, etc.
I would like for you to prove to me once and for all that I am really wrong. Are you up for that kind of challenge?...
He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just stating the obvious.Such a statement does not really prove your case in any way. ...
To the Calvinist:
Do you believe there are choices that man makes that goes against God's will?...
So was Cain in a depraved state when God said this to him?This is where you misunderstand the nature of men. Men do not seek Him in their natural depraved state. The unbeliever must first be made a believer, and then they submit to God.
I said before that God is perfectly aware of the future and what man does. But that is not the same thing as man making choices that goes contrary to His holiness and goodness, though. God would prefer men not to sin because God is holy and good. God does not force men to continue in sin with no chance of being saved because that would make God unrighteous (By doing so). For what makes God regenerate some and not others? Is it something within them? If so, then how can that be if all men are depraved?Do you believe that there are choices that man makes that take God by surprise?
No. That is just silly. Anytime anyone writes here, they are trying to prove their position or view from the Scriptures.GillDouglas said: ↑
You truly have no understanding of the relationship between God and His children.
He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just stating the obvious.
I don't buy the "God actually is the one doing whatever the believer does" kind of theory.
All in all, your perspective, Jason, looks to me to be closest to a Freewill POV with some sort of works righteousness attached.
I will still be waiting on that parable from you when you are serious enough to face your own belief (for what it really is).Well, I refuted your case and showed that your theories of Scripture do not stack up. And yes, there is nothing more to say.
Coming from one who requests a "real world example" but meant only a parable, which isn't real world at all, and who rejects actual real world examples from Scripture itself.
The error of your view of OSAS is not my problem, only yours. The proper view has been thoroughly explained with Scripture as support for it.
What you do with the truth is your own business.
I've already done that (proved that you are really wrong), and you've already rejected the truth. As you said, there is nothing more to say.
We'd call that "works righteousness," even if you give God the credit for the good work you do. That's presuming that it plays a part in saving you, but when you use the word "righteousness," that's what I think.As I said before, I do not believe that is my righteousness that saves me but it is God working in me that does so.
But yes; God does move in the believer when they at times do something. How so?
"Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and we will come to him and will make a home with him" (John 14:23).
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I really think you have to confront the issues that are famously associated with Calvinism, as opposed to focusing on what some people who are reputed to be Calvinists, or actually are Calvinists but not well attuned to Calvinist theology, do or say.
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