Logical Problems with Calvinism

I said this:
"Sermon on Mars Hill: “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent" Acts 17:30

"all people everywhere" doesn't just refer to the 'elect'.

And the Calvinists give them an excuse when they end up in hell: they weren't chosen for heaven. Like the other sinners who were. "

tulipbee said:

Only the saved ones are saved

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I fail to see how this relates to my post.

EmSw said:

Let's break this down. Those who say they know Him, but do not keep His commandments, are liars and the truth is not in them. This does not say TRUTHS; it say TRUTH!

Who is the Truth? Of course it is Jesus, so those who do not have the Truth in them, do not have Jesus in them. If you can show where anyone is saved without Jesus, feel free to shout it from the rooftops. And while you are at it, please show us how one stays saved without Jesus.

Those who say they know Him, (here's the part which rips your OSAS apart), BUT DO NOT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS, are liars. They do NOT have the truth in them, that is, Jesus. You want to focus on truth and truths, but you need to focus on 'DO NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS'!

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OK, you either failed to understand my post or are just ignoring it.

I said this:
"but we will never be sinless this side of eternity."

Jason0047 said:

Not true.

1. He that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin. (1 Peter 4:1).

2. They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.(Galatians 5:24).

3. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:17-27).

4. "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:12-14).

5. "...I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one" (1 John 2:14).....

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Once again, the Bible says this:

"those who say they have no sin have DECEIVED THEMSELVES and the truth is NOT IN THEM" 1 Jn 1:8

The Bible tells us to sin less, not that we will become sinless.

Your view denies the sin nature which Paul clearly taught was STILL active in himself. Rom 7 and Gal 5.

FreeGrace2 said:

If you're suggesting that regeneration/rebirth occurs in order that one will believe, where is that found in the Bible?

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I hope that you'll consider these verses regarding your question.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him." (1 John 5:1)

"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

GillDouglas said:

I hope that you'll consider these verses regarding your question.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him." (1 John 5:1)

"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

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Here is shown that those who don't recognize the Lord Jesus in belief are those who do not have the word of the Father abiding within them.
So they have not been born again - regenerated with a spiritual life, since God's word is not in them. If God's word was within them they would have been spiritually alive and believed in Christ when He appeared to them.
And v40 teaches us that people who are not regenerate are not willing to come to Christ for eternal life, believing results in justification.

John 5
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

A person need not audibly hear or see God with the physical senses to be born again, the wind blows and you do not see where it came from or where it is going, but the wind of God's Spirit creates the transformation.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

All the elect obtain God and Christ and salvation, all the rest are blinded, here it says by God they were given a spirit of stupor.
Stupor is an interesting word.
stu·por
ˈst(y)o͞opər/Submit
noun
a state of near-unconsciousness or insensibility.
"a drunken stupor"
synonyms: daze, state of unconsciousness, torpor, insensibility, oblivion
"they left him slumped in a drunken stupor"

Stupor (From Latin stupere, "be stunned or amazed") is the lack of critical mental function and a level of consciousness wherein a sufferer is almost entirely unresponsive and only responds to base stimuli such as pain.

In 2 Cor 4 Paul says the minds of unbelievers are blinded by Satan.

If only the elect are saved, and the others stupefied, then things are what they are because God has so ordained things to be what they are. Who is anyone to fight against God? Who can resist His will?

FreeGrace2 said:

Yet, people repent all the time. Where does the Bible indicate that God is the cause of one's repentance?


Of course. And we know who He chose to give to Jesus: John 6:45 - “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

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Then those people are elects cause it only happens to them. That everyone are the elects

Ones have said:

man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, and can only come to salvation through irresistible grace.

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"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (1 Corinthians 3:5)

Yes, here Paul is specifically talking about how we are sufficient to minister the New Testament. But I see how this can apply to if humans of their own selves can get themselves to choose to obey God and trust in Jesus for salvation.

Ones have said:

he can't help but sin

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"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:10)

If we were in slavery to sin, I can see this means we could not help what we were doing. Even so, we did make choices.

And each of us will reap what we have sown (Galatians 5:6-7). "Of course", if we have trusted in Jesus we will reap the good we have sown while being children of God; we won't reap what we did as children of Satan!! (2 Corinthians 5:17)

But the choices we made were in slavery to Satan and > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) > so, we needed to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" (Acts 26:18). It took God's work to change us so in our hearts we became willing and obedient. Philippians 2:13 does say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

This means, mostly, not only what beliefs to have, though, but how much we need to depend on the LORD, every moment, for how He is able to have us become in our nature and will and do all He desires all the time . . . "continually" (Isaiah 58:11) in the ruling of His peace > Colossians 3:15.

Ones have said:

Blame implies freedom, such that a person can only be blamed for what he's free to accept or reject. I.e., you can't blame a person for doing that which he can't help but do.

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With this definition of blaming, yes. But you can blame your car for breaking down so you are late for work, even though your car is dead and made no choice and you let it break down. Also, if you make something which is totally under your control, you then might judge what you yourself did make. And you might throw things, a paper, or food into the trash . . . after you made it.

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21)

"we all" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:3)

All have "by nature" been "children of wrath". All had the nature to sin. How could certain ones somehow become good-natured enough to want to obey God, while others kept on staying in their evil nature? The thanks is purely to God > Romans 6:10 > Jeremiah 17:9.

Ones have said:

the individual isn't free to accept or reject God except through irresistible grace.

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"everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." (in John 6:45)

God's grace is almighty and gentle and humble >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Therefore, a result of coming to Jesus is we learn from Him and find "rest for your souls". This is a result of God's grace changing us in our nature. Our own nature has not had us choosing this, has it?? Jeremiah 17:9 shows that a heart in sin is "desperately wicked" . . . not about to choose what is good. The credit and glory is purely to God, then.

Ones have said:

Hold that individuals are free to reject grace

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If you are free from God and His grace, you are in separation from God. And your own nature is not good like God; so it does not have the goodness to make a good choice, I consider. So we need God through Jesus. Only God is good, Jesus says > Luke 18:19. We need "the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) in us, so we become natural at willing and obeying.

Either way, we are slaves > "slaves of sin" (Romans 6:20), or "slaves of righteousness" (Romans 6:18-19) and "slaves of God" (Romans 6:22).

Received says that ones could have said:

individuals are born in a state of innocence

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If you are "innocent", your nature is innocent and therefore, I could consider, incapable of wanting and choosing to sin. In order for you an innocent person to sin, you would "need" for your nature to be changed to become willing and able to sin, and this would no longer be innocent. If all were born innocent, how come all have chosen to sin? Why might not, say, "fifty-percent" choose to be good?

I understand that our own character can be more or less our dictator. Good character brings doing God's good and loving things. And He transforms us to become submissive to Him in His love and leading. This is not forcing us or making us "puppets", but He in His love transforms us to become loving in our nature . . . in spite of how we have been.

GillDouglas said:

I'm sorry Jason, but you are wrong on this yet again. If our justification were through the law, being perfect ourselves, then Christ died for no purpose. (Gal. 2:21)

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." ... Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. (Gal. 3:10, 13)

The Bible teaches that our salvation depends on what Christ has accomplished for our pardon and our perfection. We accept by faith his substitution for us in two senses: in his final suffering and death, he was condemned and cursed so that we may be pardoned (see Gal. 3:13; Rom. 8:3); and in his whole life of righteousness culminating in his death, he was obedient so that we may be saved (see Heb. 5:8-9). His death crowns his atoning sufferings that propitiate God's wrath against us (see Rom. 3:24-25; 5:6-9), but it also crowns his life of perfect righteousness—God's righteousness —that is then imputed to us who believe (see 2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 3:21-22; 4:6, 11; 5:18-19).

What God requires of us, Christ has provided. It is not our doing but His and thank God it is because we are unworthy and weak.

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First, do a keyword search at blueletterbible.org for the words "circumcision" and "circumcise." If you were to do so, you will discover that these words appear in the surrounding context of the words "law" and "works." In other words, Paul was not talking about ALL Law or works in general whatsoever. Paul was referencing the Law of Moses and or the pharisee's traditions. While the believer today does not go back to the Old Covenant Law so as to obey God, there are many Commands in the New Testament for the believer today, though. Second, nowhere does Jesus and the apostles ever teach a sin and still be saved doctrine. How so? Let's look at Scripture to see.



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FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"but we will never be sinless this side of eternity."

Once again, the Bible says this:

"those who say they have no sin have DECEIVED THEMSELVES and the truth is NOT IN THEM" 1 Jn 1:8

The Bible tells us to sin less, not that we will become sinless.

Your view denies the sin nature which Paul clearly taught was STILL active in himself. Rom 7 and Gal 5.

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If your interpretation is true then the Bible contradicts the verses I already put forth here. But we both know there are no contradictions in the Bible.

Side Note:

For one, you have not explained how the surrounding text of 1 John 1:8 is teaching against sinless perfectionism. Oh and no. Sinless Perfectionism still works with a believer in regards to confessing their sins to the Lord. For one of the purposes of confession is to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (See 1 John 1:9) (i.e. To overcome sin). Two, you have not explained the verses I brought forth that defend Sinless Perfectionism.

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I mean, there are so many red flags (-verses-) in the Bible that refute OSAS, one would think they were in Russian airport.

So I encourage you, my friends.
Take a look at the Scriptures again with a fresh pair of eyes.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.

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Jason0047 said:

I mean, there are so many red [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (-verses-) in the Bible that refute OSAS, one would think they were in Russian airport.

So I encourage you, my friends.
Take a look at the Scriptures again with a fresh pair of eyes.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.

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How does one like yourself, a man of God who does not sin anymore, lose his salvation?

GillDouglas said:

How does one like yourself, a man of God who does not sin anymore, lose his salvation?

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Sin is separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth



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Jason0047 said:

Sin is separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth

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You have not answered my questions. I asked:

GillDouglas said:

How does one like yourself, a man of God who does not sin anymore, lose his salvation?

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Well, the Bible is my answer.

God's Word is clear about instructions for his people. He says if his people shall humble themselves, pray, seek his face, and turn from their wicked way, then He will hear them and forgive their sin and heal their land.

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Is a person who sins all the time a humble person or a proud person? Think about it.

The way you make it sound by what you believe, you make me think God gives grace to even proud people? Is that true? Well, the Bible says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble; And a person who sins all the time is not a humble person before God. They are a proud person.

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Hi, Gill > I think I understand what you mean. If someone is sinless and perfect, how can that person get oneself to sin and lose his or her salvation . . . since . . . he or she has no sin to cause him or her to turn from God?

One answer could be that the warnings are to people who still have not reached the strength which would keep them from turning from God.

In any case, I think we can do well to feed on 1 John 4:17 >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, if we want to be concerned about living without sin, we need to be about how God's own love makes us perfected in our nature. And God's love has almighty power to do this; so this does not depend on us and our own will power, by the way. We of ourselves, I would say, do not have the nature to will this which is so great and good. So we need God's grace to change us so we are willing and doing > Philippians 2:13.

And we need and have Jesus making "intercession for us" (Romans 8:34), praying for us according to His faith.

So it is not only that we have been "depraved", but we are so dependent.

I said this:
"If you're suggesting that regeneration/rebirth occurs in order that one will believe, where is that found in the Bible?"

GillDouglas said:

I hope that you'll consider these verses regarding your question.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)

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There is nothing here that suggests regeneration preceding faith in Christ. In fact, the very next verse tells us who actually comes to Jesus; those who have listened and learned from the Father's teaching.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him." (1 John 5:1)

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I used to think this verse taught faith before regeneration, but when challenged by the Greek grammar, I actually did research, and the phrase "everyone who believes" is a present participle. And present participles occur at the same time as the action of the main verb, which is "has been born of God". So the only thing that can be said about this verse is that regeneration and belief occur at the same time.

"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

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This verse says nothing of the order between belief and regeneration. It does support the grammar of 1 Jn 5:1 in that we are saved by washing/renewal of the Holy Spirit. It does not indicate one preceeding another.

On the contrary, Eph 2:5 indicates a relationship:
"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

The parentheses indicates the same status as "made us alive with Christ". iow, being made alive is obviously regeneration. Which is the same status of having been saved.

So, they certainly go together, just as 1 Jn 5:1 indicates. One cannot have one apart from the other. This means that if one has been made alive, they are saved. Or if one is saved, they have been made alive.

But, v.8 further clarifies and shows order between faith and regeneration.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

Here, we see that our "having been saved" is through faith. Therefore, we know that faith precedes salvation, and as well, regeneration, since they occur at the same time, per 1 Jn 5:1 and Eph 2:5.

In continuation with what I said in Post #2295:

In other words, stop and think what 2 Chronicles 7:14 is saying. If His people do such and such actions, then God will forgive their sin. This means their sin was not forgiven before. It needed to be forgiven. One is not saved if their sins are not forgiven. One needs to be forgiven in order to be saved.


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The only reason why folks are not able to see this is because they do not want to see it.
I say this not to wound anyone but in love of the truth.


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Dear Gill:

My next post will address your answer a little more specifically with Scripture.

I hope it helps.

And may God bless you.


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