Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
No one said otherwise.
Stop misrepresenting what your brothers and sisters believe and teach.
That's not loving your neighbor as yourself.
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No one said otherwise.Grace is unmerited favor but grace does not involve God allowing His people to get away with evil....
No. Our point of view does not count. Man's view is near sighted at best. An injustice takes places when no justice exists to take care of a matter. That does not exist in God's Universe. All sin that men do will be accounted for at a Judgment. Even the men who crucified Jesus will face God at the Judgment if they did not repent. So nobody is getting away with anything.The murder of Jesus Christ was an injustice from our point of view.
I agree that God was not helpless. I agree that God planned it (predestined it to happen in Calvinist lingo). And your point?
Who said or believes otherwise? No Calvinist and certainly not I would say otherwise. Are you constructing another straw man to punch around?
Utter nonsense. Of course it was an injustice. In fact it was outright murder. There were at least a dozen Jewish laws broken at the trial of Jesus alone.
And, please, don't tuy to set up another straw man concerning the righteous decree of God that it all take place.
I believe in the concurrent actions of the omnipresent God and evil men.
God's decrees are all together righteous. But He decrees that they be carried out by the unrighteous acts of sinful men.
The predestination of everything that happens in God's creation and the free will of His creation are completely compatible.
I don't know how many times I've argued that point in this forum.
Utter nonsense. God does allow injustice to take place. It's called sin.
Of course God is omniscient. But you seem to have a better handle on the way time works than is explained to us in scripture.
Who said anyone gets away with sin? You are just building another straw man for you to punch in the nose? Rather transparent IMO.
No kidding? Is that what the Bible says?
You seem to like to set up straw men and then tear them down.
The only trouble is that no Calvinist (and certainly not I) say or believe the things that you insinuate that we do.
Stop misrepresenting your bothers and sisters. That is sin.
If you really believe the drivel that you are putting out - surely you know that lying about your brothers and sisters will end in Hell fire for you.
You do not know what they believe then. They have admitted to believing in a sin and still be saved doctrine.No one said otherwise.
Stop misrepresenting what your brothers and sisters believe and teach.
That's not loving your neighbor as yourself.
Yes, Paul says we are to be slaves to righteousness and not slaves to sin. But again, your position is against the necessity of the believer living a holy life. So this leads me to conclude you believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. Living in sin (with thinking you are saved) is the only alternative to God's people living holy and upright so as to be in good standing with God. It's either one or the other.No one teaches a "sin and still be saved" doctrine the way Jason is presenting it. That is nothing but a straw man.
The reality is, Even the most pious Christian will sin, occasionally, for one simple reason: We're not yet perfected, being new creatures living in the old man's house (body). Much as he would like us to not see it, we know that even Jason still sins. Jason is of the opinion that only his past sins, up to the time he was saved, were forgiven, and that any sins he has committed after he was saved must be specifically confessed and repented of, or he will lose his salvation.
Apparently he has not considered that when Jesus died for sin, ALL of Jason's sins were yet future. By his own reckoning, none of his sins should have been forgiven. Only the sins of those who were living at the time of Jesus would fall under Jason's twisted view.
And, it has been pointed out that Grace apparently doesn't fit into his view in any meaningful way. Grace is what bridges the gap between a person sinning and their repentance and confession of it. That is what allows a Christian to sin and yet remain saved, not so he can continue sinning, but so he can remain saved while God deals with him about the sin, through conviction, and other means of bringing the person back into fellowship and right standing with God. This idea of a believer cycling in and out of salvation multiple times per day is not Grace, that is bondage! Bondage to a works-based, performance-based idea that one has to prove themselves worthy of God's ongoing blessing and protection.
It has been pointed out to Jason many times that salvation relies not on what we do, but what He has done. It's too bad it falls on deaf ears.
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So what you are really saying is that Christ's sacrifice for sin is not good enough and that the Father should not have accepted it
Who cares what you think is moral, just and good?
Who are you providing eternity for?
I think the other poster is right. You have no comprehension of what grace is. Or that Jesus has the power of complete forgiveness.
You can't preach what you feel is moral and or just. You are just not the judge.
Apparently you view is that one can enter a state of sinless perfection. Which is NOT biblical. However, salvation is NOT based on sin. In fact, Christ died for all sin. And you haven't dealt with that FACT regarding your views. Sin is NOT an issue in salvation.
Could you please cite someone who actually preaches what you are so afraid of? I don't believe you can. And please provide a source so everyone can check it out for themselves.
Yes, I do. Why don't you believe His words about believers being held in the Father's hand, in which NO ONE is able to snatch a believer out of. Which would obviously include the believer himself.
We're held by God. Not the other way around, which your view insinuates.
Another statement that illuminates your failure to understand the meaning of grace.
No one says He does. Why do you think there is anyone who does think this?
Were you saved by grace or by your own morality?
Who EVER said that anyone does "get away" with anything? I've repeatedly said that NO ONE gets away with anything. Why haven't you read that in my posts?
Your request is impossible. There is no goodness/morality behind ANY sin. So the request is bogus.
The point of Scripture is that when one is saved, they STAY saved. Sin has already been paid for, which is something that you apparently don't yet understand.
What else you seem to be totally unaware of is God's hand of discipline, in which He disciplines His children, which can be extremely severe, whether you see it in others or not.
An injustice by definition is a violation of the rights of another or an unfair act of any kind.No. Our point of view does not count. Man's view is near sighted at best. An injustice takes places when no justice exists to take care of a matter. That does not exist in God's Universe. All sin that men do will be accounted for at a Judgment. Even the men who crucified Jesus will face God at the Judgment if they did not repent. So nobody is getting away with anything.
Also, I am not misrepresenting folks belief here. Some have admitted to believing in a sin and still be saved doctrine. Do you not believe in OSAS or that grace is unmerited favor, too? Do you believe that a saint can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved?
As for God decreeing the unrighteous acts of sinful men: That is not possible. God does not decree sin to happen. God is Holy and just and good. God can see what man is going to do that is sinful and He can take man's sin that He knows He is going to do and use it for His good purposes. But God cannot decree sin anymore than he can directly create evil or do anything bad. God is good. God is not bad. ...
Yes - you are - without doubt, as all here can plainly see.They have admitted to believing in a sin and still be saved doctrine.
So no. I am not misrepresenting them.
An injustice by definition is a violation of the rights of another or an unfair act of any kind.
The murder of Jesus Christ was an injustice and it was a sin.
Whatever silly word games you choose to play here does not change that fact.
The fact that the murderers will be punished for their sins eventually does not change a thing.
The fact that the sovereign God of the universe predestined that the injustice occur in order to carry out a greater good doesn't change a thing.
God decrees and predestines everything that takes place in His creation. God does only good. But that good is often brought to fruition by the unjust acts of sinful men.
God sends forth His Word and His Word accomplishes all that He sends Him forth to accomplish.
Everything that happens in God's creation is carried out by His Word and for His Word.
Your theology is extremely shallow concerning the nature of God and His providential control over His creation.
You said and asked, "Some have admitted to believing in a sin and still be saved doctrine. Do you not believe in OSAS or that grace is unmerited favor, too? Do you believe that a saint can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved?"
I believe in OSAS. I believe that grace is unmerited favor. I believe that a true saint can die with unrepented of sin and still be saved.
You theology concerning the finished work of God on behalf of underserving sinners that He does for His eternal glory is also extremely shallow.
Your theology concerning the ongoing intercessory power of Christ and His Holy Spirit on behalf of His elect is deficient just like your other theology.
You need to get into the Word of God.
Yes - you are - without doubt, as all here can plainly see.
Don't add bald faced lies to the sin of preaching your false gospel.
So in your opinion what does the Day of Judgement do that equals justice? How does God on Judgement Day deal with justice and injustice?But Christ's sacrifice was not an injustice because His death was a way to save mankind. God did not make the devil or the pharisees or the Romans to crucify the Lord. Nor was God helpless in this event happening. In fact, God planned for it to happen. Also, anyone who crucified the Lord is not going to get away with it. For if those who crucified him do not repent, then they will have to answer for their crimes in crucifying the Lord at the Judgment. Furthermore, time does not operate the same way with us as it does with God. So there is no injustice that had taken place.
It is true that God allows evil and sin to take place, but there is no such thing as God allowing injustice to take place in His universe (That spans all the corridors of time). All evil and sin is already punished at the Judgment in God's eyes. He already knows who will be punished and who will be rewarded. There is a set date for all sin and evil to be judged and then destroyed. According to God: There are no cases were the bad guy gets away with his crimes so as to allow injustice to happen in God's universe. Not gonna happen. Now, from man's perspective of time, there might appear to be an injustice taking place. But that is merely man's near sighted nature of not being aware that all sin will be judged by God. The Scriptures say that all men will give an account to God. In fact, it pleased God the Father to crush the Son. So it was not like God was surprised or in shock or mad that the Son had to go thru such a horrible injustice. The Lamb was slain since the foundation of the world. God planned it. God already knew what He had to do to save mankind. There are no surprises with God.
Also, Christ not only died and suffered so as to save us from our sins, but he also suffered as an example for how we are to live, too.
21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (1 Peter 2:21-24).
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And what about the people who are not saved?But man carried out that sin and injustice and not God. Also, God did not decree sin or injustice to take place, either. Also, man's sin and injustice will be answered for at a Judgment. In other words, just because God was able to use man's sinful actions that placed Christ on the cross does not mean God is in agreement or in league with their sinful or wrong actions. God is holy and is without sin (and separate from what man does that is sinful).
Yes, it does change the wording "injustice." An injustice is when there is no justice whatsoever going to take place for the crime that was committed. But the Lord says vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord. So justice will be served for every and all crimes; And man and not God is the one who does sin or things that breaks God's justice. God does not declare man to sin. That would be wrong to say that. God is holy and good and only wants man to do that which is righteous and good. However, seeing God knows the future, the Lord can use man's sin or the breaking of his laws to his advantage for the greater good. This does not mean God is on the side of immorality or that God is against morality in any way.
See, this is where you are wrong, my friend. God does plan or predestine evil to take place. God can predict future events that involve the sinful actions of men. But God no more decrees, commands, declares predestines that men must sin so as to accomplish His plan or good will. That would be wrong to say that.
No. This is a contradiction in terms. For example: If John was a king and he decrees that sin must take place, then John the king will be partially responsible for that decree of sin that he declared to take place. See where I am coming from?
I am not in disagreement that God's Word comes to pass. This is prophecy and not God declaring or decreeing sin to take place which would be against God's holy and good will.
And here we go with the insults. You do realize that such a thing is not of God, right?
Then this is a sin and still be saved doctrine by the very own words that you have stated here. You just said just now that you believe a saint can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved. Which is saying that one can sin and still be saved. So I do not see how you can disagree with my saying that I am accusing you and others falsely here.
But there is no teaching in God's Word about just believing in the finished work of Christ whereby I can ignore God's goodness and morality in regards to soteriology. Paul says, if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. To say that one can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved goes against Godliness.
And more insults to add. Please stick with Scripture and do not make it personal.
Thank you.
And may God bless you.
And please be well.
I will be praying for you.
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God says in His Word, vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord. So I believe God is into fair justice and that nobody is going to get away with anything. God is a fair and good Judge and He will perfectly judge and perfectly punish and perfectly reward.So in your opinion what does the Day of Judgement do that equals justice? How does God on Judgement Day deal with justice and injustice?
Because at that point, after we are all dead and ready for our eternal fates, how are the injustices that each of us has had both a part in creating for ourselves and others become justice?
What can change pain already felt? Lives already changed to right a wrong that we have created on another?
I'm not getting how you think after the fact that these injustices are all made right on Judgement Day?
Please be specific.
Do not be led astray from the grace of God that sanctifies us by those using words of human reason and their understanding of the natural mind which is at enmity with the grace of Christ.
2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
God preserves His saints. the message from Jude is to contend for the faith against ungodliness, and ungodliness is also not moral but error of turning away from believing by grace to believing in works required by us to preserve our salvation.
God preserves us whom He called. God sanctified us by His grace and preserves us in Christ.
Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
Because that's all he has.No one teaches a "sin and still be saved" doctrine the way Jason is presenting it. That is nothing but a straw man.
Well, first, everyone will be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (the Lake of FIre) as Jesus said (See Matthew 10:28). Second, God punishes everyone according to their sins. Those who were treated unfairly as sinners will know that those who did bad towards them will face the punishment of their crimes fairly by God if they did not repent.And what about the people who are not saved?
How is the injustice against them made justice?
If their destiny is eternal separation from God, how does God make the injustices committed against them right?
Because that's all he has.
Let's be clear about what the Bible actually teaches.The preacher who teaches a sin and still be saved doctrine is causing damage by leading others into thinkng sin is not all that serious and therefore it leads them deeper into sin.
If you don't support this opinion with Scripture that is clear, there is no reason to accept it.God disciplining folks is only for those who desire to be faithful to God.
What in the world do you think discipline is for then?? Well, rather than just get your opinion again, let's look at what Scripture says:Discipline is not for people who want to continue in their sin and or who lead people deeper into sin by telling them that sin is no more dangerous than a fluffly kitten when it comes to their soul in the after-life.
There are NO verses that teach that any believer can reach sinless perfection. But since that is your opinion, there is no longer any reason to discuss any of this.As for Sinless Perfectionism: I have already provided verses within this thread on that. ...
Your "claim" is betrayed by your unbiblical opinion that a human can achieve sinless perfection. If that were true, why did Christ die on the cross, and for ALL sin? You have no answer.Actually, I have Jesus Christ in my life and He leads me into paths of righteousness for his name sake.
Actually, after all I've posted to you about my views, this demonstrates one of 2 things:But in your belief system, that is not all that important to walk as He walked because you teach that a believer does not need to worry about sin so as to remain in good standing with the Lord.
In a previous post, I PROVED that they cannot.In fact, you cannot walk as He walked because you do not believe a believer can stop sinning.
Sure, if they either ignore, reject, or simply do not understand my post, they may think what you state here. But those who actually read and understand what I post will NEVER make such a mistake as you've suggested.This means, that those who hear your messsage will have a cavalier attitude towards sin and thereby remain in their sins like when they were an unbeliever.
Please STOP mischaracterizing my views. At least read them before opening your mouth and inserting foot.So living holy is not really all that important in this belief.
All for rewards and avoidance of discipline. NONE for loss of salvation.It is rather amazing you do not see it. There are tons of warnings in the Bible to the believer about how we cannot sin and that we must live righteously.
That's fine, but why do you think that justice is done after we are all dead?God says in His Word, vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord. So I believe God is into fair justice and that nobody is going to get away with anything. God is a fair and good Judge and He will perfectly judge and perfectly punish and perfectly reward.
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Jason you are o AndYou do not know what they believe then. They have admitted to believing in a sin and still be saved doctrine.
So no. I am not misrepresenting them.
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