Logical Problem with Predestination

Dale · Apr 4, 2013

Rising Spirit in post #39:
" And predestination, et. al., make hearers uncomfortable."

Predestinationist: "There is a good chance that your soul is irrevocably lost."

Yes, I can see that would make folks uncomfortable.

Why did Christ call for repentance if people are not able to repent?

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BlackSepulcher · Apr 4, 2013

Albion said:
How does God not making a distinction between good and evil have anything to do with predestination? Every one of us is evil in our natural state, after all.

Because evil cannot exist if God predetermines everything. An evil act invokes the finality of good, and by extension cannot be an evil act.

Albion · Apr 4, 2013

BlackSepulcher said:
Because evil cannot exist if God predetermines everything.

But no one has said that God predetermines everything. That would be fatalism. Theological predestination means only that he predetermines who is to receive saving faith.

RisingSpirit · Apr 4, 2013

Dale said:
Rising Spirit in post #39:
" And predestination, et. al., make hearers uncomfortable."

Predestinationist: "There is a good chance that your soul is irrevocably lost."

Yes, I can see that would make folks uncomfortable.

Why did Christ call for repentance if people are not able to repent?

When you proclaim the Gospel to someone, calling has been made.

You do nothing more. Once you proclaim the Gospel it (Calling) has occurred !

The calling is the Gospel.

If the hearer is unregenerate, that calling will be dismissed.

If the hearer is regenerate, that calling shall ultimately result in their repentance and faith.

We don't know. It's the same Gospel for BOTH !

The Gospel is the calling !

We do the calling (Romans 10:14c). Whereas regeneration is done by the Holy Spirit.

Calling uses means (Gospel). Regeneration does not use means (it's supernatural).

Dale · Apr 6, 2013

RisingSpirit said:
When you proclaim the Gospel to someone, calling has been made.

You do nothing more. Once you proclaim the Gospel it (Calling) has occurred !

The calling is the Gospel.

If the hearer is unregenerate, that calling will be dismissed.

If the hearer is regenerate, that calling shall ultimately result in their repentance and faith.

We don't know. It's the same Gospel for BOTH !

The Gospel is the calling !

We do the calling (Romans 10:14c). Whereas regeneration is done by the Holy Spirit.

Calling uses means (Gospel). Regeneration does not use means (it's supernatural).

You are stating the predestinationist position. I have seen no reason to believe it.

Regeneration may be supernatural but the Bible tells us that people can ask God for regeneration.

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Dale · Apr 7, 2013

BlackSepulcher said:
Because evil cannot exist if God predetermines everything. An evil act invokes the finality of good, and by extension cannot be an evil act.

Interesting point.

The following quote is from a book by Stefan Zweig, available on The GOSPEL TRUTH of God's Character, Law, Government and Gospel, on the life of John Calvin.

<< Bolsec, generally respected as family doctor to the leading patricians in Geneva, had openly attacked the weakest and most vulnerable point of Calvin's teaching, the rigid doctrine of predestination, using the argument that Erasmus had used against Luther. It was impossible, declared both these "heretics," that God, as the principle of all good, could wittingly and willingly impel human beings to perform their worst deeds. Everyone knows how infuriated Luther was by Erasmus's reasoning, and what a flood of abuse the most noted champion of the Reformation, this master of coarse invective, let loose against the elderly sage. >>

Link:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_chap5.htm

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shturt678 · Apr 7, 2013

Dale said:
You are stating the predestinationist position. I have seen no reason to believe it.

Let's accept the one valid view of "Predestination" in light of Rom.8:28, 29 for starters and toss out the rest of the "Predestination ideas." Is this compatible with you?

BlackSepulcher · Apr 7, 2013

Dale said:
Interesting point.

The following quote is from a book by Stefan Zweig, available on The GOSPEL TRUTH of God's Character, Law, Government and Gospel, on the life of John Calvin.

<< Bolsec, generally respected as family doctor to the leading patricians in Geneva, had openly attacked the weakest and most vulnerable point of Calvin's teaching, the rigid doctrine of predestination, using the argument that Erasmus had used against Luther. It was impossible, declared both these "heretics," that God, as the principle of all good, could wittingly and willingly impel human beings to perform their worst deeds. Everyone knows how infuriated Luther was by Erasmus's reasoning, and what a flood of abuse the most noted champion of the Reformation, this master of coarse invective, let loose against the elderly sage. >>

Link:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_chap5.htm

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Dang, I could be a good theologian

I didn't know the point had already been formally made, let alone directly to Luther himself. I'm definitely going to look into that. Interesting stuff indeed

allykelly07 · Apr 7, 2013

I have been on many different threads about this. What God has taught me is that He has "predestined according to His foreknowledge". That is what the scripture says in
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God knew who would come to know Him, since He knows past present and future, He predestined according to it. Even though He foreknows everything, we still have a daily choice of dying to ourselves and living by the Spirit to please God. We cannot say just because we prayed a prayer one time in our life, that we are saved forever. Because scripture makes it clear that it is a DAILY thing, walking and living, by the Spirit, and not to our earthly nature. I know most of you are saying, well that's works. But it is not! Look at what scripture says, there are many commands to us, so that we make ourselves fit honorable vessels for Christ to live through. Having a works based salvation, means that by the OUTWARD things that we do, we try to get to heaven by them. That would be false. But INWARD works, is of the Spirit, that we are called to persevere in. We are called to do daily, not just one time. This is what scripture says. So obey it, and then God will lift you up, and we will continue to be saved and grow in His grace.

Albion · Apr 7, 2013

allykelly07 said:
I have been on many different threads about this. What God has taught me is that He has "predestined according to His foreknowledge". That is what the scripture says in
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God knew who would come to know Him, since He knows past present and future, He predestined according to it.

Then that would not really be predestination in the Biblical sense, since it would depend upon something we do. It would make salvation be something we have earned.

shturt678 · Apr 7, 2013

allykelly07 said:
I have been on many different threads about this. What God has taught me is that He has "predestined according to His foreknowledge". That is what the scripture says in
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

your so close! Rom.8:29, 30 is accepted as being one of the great sedes doctrinae of "predestination." You got the main thought of this passage being God's provident care, and the main object of it comfort and assurance in regard to that care. The irony is that predestination is not at all elucidated except dealing with prooridzein explained later.

Rom.8:29, "because whom he foreknew he also FOREORDAINED to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Most don't even have a chance trying to receive a valid grammatical and contextual interpretation due to so many fallacious interpretations. Proginwskein = pro + ginwskein = to know in advance = "to foreknow," which you got. The same is valid with regard to prooridzein, to ordain in advance, to predestine. How far back pro reaches is not debated, for we all agree that these divine acts go back to eternity. Now my end point:

"Foreknew" and "foreordained" cannot be synonymous. Prooridzein = "to foreordain," and proorismos = "foreordination." This is an act of the will; by it God in eternity fixed, settled, and determined that those whom he already recognized in agape as his own should be such as are conformed to the image of his Son.

There is, indeed, a conformitas crucis which we attain in this life, and some would combine it with the conformitas gloriae to be attained at the last day. But Paul is pointing his readers from their sufferings to their comfort amid trials and to their assured hope, and this means to their coming glory. Hope this helps?

Dale · Apr 7, 2013

Shturt678 and Allykelly07 have both referred to Romans 8. Here's what I found in that Chapter.

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
--Romans 8:12-13 RSV

12-13 So then, my brothers, you can see that we have no particular reason to feel grateful to our sensual nature, or to live life on the level of the instincts. Indeed that way of living leads to certain spiritual death. But if on the other hand you cut the nerve of your instinctive actions by obeying the Spirit, you are on the way to real living.
--Romans 8:12-13 Phillips

These passages clearly put some responsibility on mortals, on the believer.

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RisingSpirit · Apr 7, 2013

Dale said:
You are stating the predestinationist position. I have seen no reason to believe it.

Regeneration may be supernatural but the Bible tells us that people can ask God for regeneration.

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You are stating the Wesleyan position. I have seen no reason to believe in snowy theology.

First, what exactly is Wesley's point here ?

It is: If predestinate election be true, then our preaching, argumentation, haranguing, exhortations, aren't the primary factor in conversion to Christ.

And, we Reformation Christians hold THAT to be precisely the case !

Preaching presents to hearers only the conceptual framework for conversion. But it God's softening of hard hearts (through prior regeneration) which makes conversion possible.

Preaching the Gospel -in itself- can convert NO ONE ! Being "born again" (in theology: regeneration) represents the pivotal soteric event.

You can preach to a million unregenerates, and none will be saved. Preach to one recipient of regeneration, and that person can't not be saved !

And regeneration is given only to those the Most High has predestined.

So, does this mean preaching is in vain ?

Only if you believe preaching converts the sinner.

It's like going into a car dealership: The salesman doesn't convince anybody to buy a car who doesn't have a.) the finances to afford it, or b.) the prior intent to purchase it. Car salesmen sell cars to those interested in buying cars.

Thats not a perfect analogy (no analogy is perfect !). But preaching explains something only the regenerate are prepared to hear, and only the regenerate can understand (SEE: Romans 3:11).

Regeneration is the pivotal soteric event. And only the Elect get regenerated !

Preaching is an essential, but small, part of a person's conversion.

Have to have it. It's not in vain. But it only it only works if the person has been regenerated. Which -in turn- depends upon predestination.

ChristianLife08 · Apr 7, 2013

Jipsah said:
Here's all you need to know about predestination (all emphasis is mine):

Ephesians 1

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

no one argues the idea of God choosing.

The question is, who is chosen? individuals? or a corporate election, i.e. Christians, all those who are and will be in Christ?

Albion · Apr 7, 2013

ChristianLife08 said:
no one argues the idea of God choosing.

The question is, who is chosen? individuals? or a corporate election, i.e. Christians, all those who are and will be in Christ?

Apparently someone DOES argue the idea of God choosing, because if your explanation were accepted, it would mean agreeing to the proposition that God does NOT choose. If all God does is ratify the decisions we mortals make in choosing him, he's not doing the choosing!

Rick Otto · Apr 7, 2013

God decides, man abides.
(Bumper stickers available)

allykelly07 · Apr 7, 2013

Albion said:
Then that would not really be predestination in the Biblical sense, since it would depend upon something we do. It would make salvation be something we have earned.

What you are not understanding, is outward works do not produce eternal life, they are not accepted by God as a pure sacrifice. But in Romans, this is what it does say, that we are called to do, in order to please God. Inward works.
Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of Gods mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to Godthis is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what Gods will ishis good, pleasing and perfect will.

In other words if we don't so this, then we are not pleasing God. Since it says offering our bodies to Him as a living sacrifice, is what pleases Him. Notice it says, "in view of God mercy", we are told to do this, with the view that His mercy depends on us offering our bodies to Him in this way.

Now look at this verse....
1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

IF we watch our life and doctrine closely, we will save ourselves? And our hearers? How can you get around these verses, that God calls you to live this kind of life, in the person of Christ, which produces eternal life?

What about this verse?
Luke 9:23-24
23 Then He said to them all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

We aren't following Christ, if we are not obeying what He preached. He said, we must deny ourselves, take up our cross DAILY, and follow Him. This is what Christ said Himself. We are commanded, to walk by the Spirit, by the new man, rather than our sinful nature. We must do these things, with the power of the Spirit, or else we are not obeying God, and ultimately not walking in His love, according to the word of God.

allykelly07 · Apr 7, 2013

shturt678 said:
allykelly07 said:

I have been on many different threads about this. What God has taught me is that He has "predestined according to His foreknowledge". That is what the scripture says in
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

your so close! Rom.8:29, 30 is accepted as being one of the great sedes doctrinae of "predestination." You got the main thought of this passage being God's provident care, and the main object of it comfort and assurance in regard to that care. The irony is that predestination is not at all elucidated except dealing with prooridzein explained later.

Rom.8:29, "because whom he foreknew he also FOREORDAINED to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Most don't even have a chance trying to receive a valid grammatical and contextual interpretation due to so many fallacious interpretations. Proginwskein = pro + ginwskein = to know in advance = "to foreknow," which you got. The same is valid with regard to prooridzein, to ordain in advance, to predestine. How far back pro reaches is not debated, for we all agree that these divine acts go back to eternity. Now my end point:

"Foreknew" and "foreordained" cannot be synonymous. Prooridzein = "to foreordain," and proorismos = "foreordination." This is an act of the will; by it God in eternity fixed, settled, and determined that those whom he already recognized in agape as his own should be such as are conformed to the image of his Son.

There is, indeed, a conformitas crucis which we attain in this life, and some would combine it with the conformitas gloriae to be attained at the last day. But Paul is pointing his readers from their sufferings to their comfort amid trials and to their assured hope, and this means to their coming glory. Hope this helps?

Click to expand...

I don't really understand what your trying to teach me here?

allykelly07 · Apr 7, 2013

Dale said:
Shturt678 and Allykelly07 have both referred to Romans 8. Here's what I found in that Chapter.

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
--Romans 8:12-13 RSV

12-13 So then, my brothers, you can see that we have no particular reason to feel grateful to our sensual nature, or to live life on the level of the instincts. Indeed that way of living leads to certain spiritual death. But if on the other hand you cut the nerve of your instinctive actions by obeying the Spirit, you are on the way to real living.
--Romans 8:12-13 Phillips

These passages clearly put some responsibility on mortals, on the believer.

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Amen they do without a doubt. We have a call to fight the good fight of faith to the end, just as Paul did. But many people see it as being too hard, so they choose to go on the other side and say that we don't do anything. Which, scripture says that we sow to the Spirit, and by that, He does everything through us, as we sow to Him more and more daily, not just once. Then there are people who are on the other side, saying that we do outward works and by that we reach eternal life. That is not the case either. Scripture says, "walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh". In other words, if we don't walk by the Spirit, we are fulfilling the desires of the flesh. It is that simple. But many try to go about it another way.

shturt678 · Apr 8, 2013

allykelly07 said:
shturt678 said:

I don't really understand what your trying to teach me here?

Click to expand...

I don't even understand my own inference so how can I expect others to grasp ... lies on me .... thank you for your patience.

Just remove "predestined" from Rom.8:29 and insert "foreordained" and you will make an ol' old Lutheran very happy.

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