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satan is the father of lies and the lies are clear. Terrorist will reap what they sow.
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Diven said:Ooo ooo! I know what I will do.
I will take all the weapons I have and just start firing them off in your general direction.
I'' start with a machine gun... oops hit a cyclist and a man walking his dog. Lets go for my shotgun.. oops hit the guys house across the street. I'll throw a grenade... yikes landed under that families van leaving for vacation. Ahh my trusty rocket launcher thats got to work. Whoops that way off.. oh man it hit the school. Great I'm all out of weapons and I still haven't hit you. And now a bunch of other people are coming out of their house towards me with their guns.
Driven said:Isreal isn't doing this for justice or self defense. The Israeli governement is doing this out of revenge and to show its people that they are doing things.
Driven said:To be honest I would try to talk you down, at some point though I would probably fight, and as before first to incapacitate you, but if necessary lethal. But why would I assume you couldn't be talked down. To the best of my knowledge hezbollah doesn't want Israelli land, they want sovereignty for Lebanon and for Israel to not meddle in their affairs. Hezbollah is hardly an inoncent all good party in this. But Israel isn't doing anything that will bring an end to this conflict.
Driven said:If a family wasn't involved (or they are all believers), it might even be reasonable to die. Though I would admit that would be hard to do. For me to die is gain as I would be sent to heaven. If I kill a man about to murder me he has no shot at redemtion.
Driven said:How bout this one. If you sentance to be executed for a crime you didn't commit. You had been beaten and were about to be hung. People were mocking you. You had a beacon that could send in a massive army to come in and kill all your oppressors and rescue you. Would you activate it?
I probably would, but I'm glad there was one who didn't.
stone said:satan is the father of lies and the lies are clear. Terrorist will reap what they sow.
No I have never fired or even held a firearm unless you count paintball or videogames, which you shouldn't as paintball guns have pitiful recoil, and the artificial recoil of video games is well artificial. I'm from Canada few people here see the need for guns as self defense. I'm glad you practice to make sure there is no longer collatoral damage should you need to defend yourself. I wrote this as I was annoyed at Gordon's attempted simplification of the problem, and my counter was trying to show how I felt Israel was reacting in the context of Gordon's simplification. Its alot easier to be precise with a gun than trying to hit rocket trucks from a distance with Tank Shells.wildthing said:If they shoot anyway that you do you have nothing to fear. Did you ever practise with the fire arm? When I was growing up my dad had me practise 3 days a week so in the event that something happens there would be no else getting shot. I still practise three times a week
I think I will evaluate the evidence as it comes in rather than take your word. I don't have anything against you but you are just a random poster on a web forum. Also your identification with the republican party (who I believe has decietful in the past) makes me question whether you yourself may be deceived. I'm not trying to attack you for your political allegiance, I wouldn't just take a democrates word on a forum either. I'm just trying to explain my hesitation to simply take your word.wildthing said:Take my word for it, it's self defense...How many times has their been a car bomb going off in Isreal. How many times have the Jewish people been rocket attacked and shot at.....
The original post actually said Gordon was trying to kill me (he said I) and that he would stop at nothing to kill me. The hypothetical situation says he can't be pursuaded, but in such situation how am I to know this. Change the situation to a friend, a brother, or say your wife should you have cheated on her (not saying you would, just establishing a motive that might result in a wife trying to kill her husband). Would your answer be the same shoot first ask questions later. Remember I am not changing the fact that this relative would stop at nothing to kill you. If you are to love your enemies, you need to consider even those you label as terrorist in this manner.wildthing said:Don't waste your time talking the orginal post stated that the terrorist has no use for you and that your just as good as dead. Shoot to kill ask questions later, if your dealing with a terrorist. Don't waste your time trying to understand them...
Forgive me by this I didn't mean to judge one who decides to defend themselves. Merely that if our lives or forfeit for Jesus we should be prepared to die. I also wasn't claiming that I my death would lead to this persons salvation only that I have kept some hope alive that said person may someday recognize the error of his ways and repent and become a Christian. Of course when you are thinking of family or country mates ones responsibility changes. I would say I believe Israel motive is actually self-defense, but I'm not sure its doing its utmost to only hit those that are threats. I know you will disagree with me on this... but just stating my opinion.wildthing said:Everone makes a choice if I have away to defend myself, that's the choice I make. If murderer going to try to do his will on me to shoot to kill is the only responce. He made his choice.
Didn't mean to insinuate that we take the place of God on the cross. But I think we are also called to self-sacrifice. Sacrifice in the way we live and yes in certain times even to face a situation where we will die, even if we could have stayed out of the situation. Think Steven and some missionaries.wildthing said:Don't ask that question that was the plan from the beginning. God's only son was to die for the sins of the world. In the old testement his life (Jesus) was laid out. I'm not here to die for the sins of a terrorist when I have the means to defend my self. Try a different question but don't put man in the place of God's son.
Poke said:Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Yes, Satan is the father of lies and the state of Israel is his child. And, the state is Israel will reap what it sows. For now, that's constant violence, eventually it will be destruction. Then the Christian Zionists will have to go back to the drawing board. And, praise God, a dark chapter in world history will have ended.
..an early university overdose of Mein Kamph
Actually, it's Driver...sorry for any confusion or mixups!Diven said:Also other than the first quote you quoted me as Driven. I know there is another poster called Driven, and it can be easy to mix up Diven and Driven, especially when diven is only a word when I say something erroneus like "I should have diven for that!" while playing a game of frisbee.
Driver said:I'm sure most well-meaning Christian Zionists, if they didn't know already, would be shocked into the Bush family connections to Nazi Germany. I just wonder if they were also into numerology.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
Driver said:I'm sure most well-meaning Christian Zionists, if they didn't know already, would be shocked into the Bush family connections to Nazi Germany. I just wonder if they were also into numerology.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
The Bush family????? Or one man who happened to be related??
Driver said:..Prescott Bush was George W. Bush's grandfather.
Prescott, Geroge H.W. and George W. are also of the Skull and Bones society of Yale, which are connected to Hitler's Thule Society.
So failing to change political philosophies is justification for launching deadly rockets into Israel, and kidnapping two Israeli soldiers from their own country? To call that absurd would be to fail miserably at characterizing the nonsense therein.Diven said:Maybe because Israel didn't really change its policies which lead to the attacks in the first place.
To my knowledge, there are no lesser nor greater terrorists. Terrorism is terrorism is terrorism, period.Diven said:But you are very guilty of lumping all terrorists together.
That'a great rationalization. Too bad it fails to stand up to even casual scrutiny. Hezbollah is the reason Israel was in south Lebanon in the first place. The terrorists had no organization until they labled themselves 'The Party of God' and collectively held up that banner. All that changed was they now had a name, which they thought (and which 'useful idiots' in the west have confirmed for them) would give them an identity. But they're still just terrorists.Diven said:Hezbollah was formed to fight the Israeli occupation of southern lebannon in the 80s.
But the credit for that withdrawal belongs to Israel's respect for international law, in that they were the only country in the region to comply with UN Resolution 1559, which demanded all foreign troops leave Lebanon by the end of 2000. No other nation complied, and Hezbollah was expected to disarm under 1559, but obviously did not.Diven said:srael pulled out of Southern Lebannon in 2000 but hatred still remains.
I suggest you research this a bit further, and this time include the biblical passages on Jacob and Esau, Isaac and Ishmael, etc. The hatred goes back to Old Testament times and the so-called 'meddling' of the west is just a tired excuse to extend their hatred further outward of the Mideast.Diven said:Hamas is Palestinian organization who does claim to want to annihilate Israel (not the united states) because they feel Israel occupies what should be palestinian land. Still I believe they could be satisfied with less than all of Israel. Al Qaeda, oh thats the islamic fundamentalist group that wants to whipe out the western world. But this is likely more due to secularism and perceived meddling in the middle eastern world rather than anti-christian, or anti-jew.
No, the way I view them is through reality. You seem to be among the spinmeisters here who ignore or deny context and history.Diven said:The way you have interpreted the facts or had them told to you.
Then why don't you present some 'facts' supporting your rhetoric instead of repeatedly citing your viewpoint as though having said it several times constitutes proof? And please explain how US provision of humanitarian and financial aid to the Arab countries makes us deserving of 'attack'? When you examine the facts and history of the region, neither the US nor Israel have done anything to provoke the attacks. This is another example of an oft-repeated 'fact' that is nothing more than lies and spin, the purveyors of the lie meaning the repetition to constitute its 'truth.'Diven said:Again Israel isn't the only guilty party, I don't need to convince you the wrong doings of Hezbollah and Hamas, so I'm not going to bother present them. I'm trying to defeat the attitude the Israel and the US are all goodie two shoes and have never done anything to deserve anyone conceiving of attacking them.
Again, the terrorists were the reason Israel was there. They just adopted a name.Diven said:Yes they found their government undermaned to fight for sovereignty so they formed to fight Israel during the occupation.
So, in one breath you 'condemn' it, and in the next you excuse it. And you wonder why people think you don't grasp the situation?Diven said:They still hate Israel, and are sympathetic to Palestinian struggle.Hiding behind civilians is something I disagree with, it isn't nobel of them. They do it because they feel they have no choice, they would be creamed if they were to face Israel Face to Face.
There is some merit to my distaste for your misguided viewpoint too, but I'm not launching rockets into your backyard. Do you understand the differences here?Diven said:Wow mini-WMD what propaganda will they think up next. Large mini-pizzas? Not exactly, they aren't planning to contruct concentration camps and there is actually some merit to their distaste of the Israeli State.
And that last sentence appears to be a rationalization for Hitler's annihilation of six million Jews. I'm beginning to see the pattern to your own 'distaste' for Israel here, and I don't care for it.Diven said:You may feel Israel had a right to invade in the 80s but I doubt the Lebanesse saw it this way. Hitler was jealous of Jews able to be financially succesfull while the country on the whole was poor and tortured and killed Jews across Europe.
As long as the terrorists hide among the innocent, they endanger the innocent. Israel's only other choice is to let the terrorists sit amongst the civilian population and freely launch rockets into Israel without anything more strenuously opposing the attacks than severe diplomatic language, which (trust me) Hezbollah laughs at. 'Perceived oppression' amounts to the same kind of jealousy you spoke of as being held by Hitler. In other words, they look across the border at Israel and see success and democracy, and rather than emulating it, they seek to destroy it. Israel has no interest in oppression, nor does it practice it. All one has to do is see how Arabs and Palestinians living in Israel are enjoying the benefits of a free market democratic society. To desire to steal, kill and destroy is Satan's agenda, and now it appears it is the aim of Hezbollah too, and for the same reasons: They can't have it because they won't accept the requirements to possess it, so they would rather see it completely destroyed.Diven said:And shelling cities infrastructure and innocent civilians helps this how. Islamic fundamentalism is born out of perceived oppression how is oppressing them more going to kill it.
And you honestly think an international peacekeeping force will be successful where Israel has not? You really do live in a little world all your own, don't you?Diven said:Hezbollah is an independant organization within a sovereing country that doesn't by itself have the power to control Hezbollah. The only solution is for Hezbollah to voluntarily disarm (unlikely) or for an extern police type militia to raid Hezbollah Miltary Locations.
I do too, but I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that Jesus required us to let ourselves be killed when the gospel was met with hostility.Diven said:By this I didn't mean my death would lead to his redemption but that he would remain alive to be redeemed at a later date. And yes I believe my God can save even a Fundamentalist Muslim, and Murderers.
This is the story of Elizabeth Elliot, whose husband Jim, along with missionary bush pilot Nate Saint and three other missionaries were killed by the Alca Indians in Ecuador in 1954. Its the story told in the recent movie "End of the Spear." But the key to the Alca's salvation is that they laid down their arms. It is highly unlikely that Hezbollah will do that, because they are fanatics to a false religion they absolutely believe to be true. Also there is considerable evidence that the Alcas were under the conviction of the 'law in their hearts' as Paul writes of in Romans 2:16ff.Diven said:I don't know I've heard a couple stories of a missionaries killed by waring tribes. But years later (one story was of the son returning, the son was sharing the story, the other was of a wife, potentially the same initial missionary don't remember the name said for either) a relative returned and was able to convert many from the tribe into believers... partly because this relative was able to forgive them for the killing of their father/husband.
No, it was not until Paul had a direct encounter with Jesus Christ on the Damascus Road that Paul even gave consideration to Stephen's sacrifice. It always requires the intervention of Christ, through the Holy Spirit, to make the change in a man's heart. Words from men won't do anything except plant the seed of truth in someone's heart. The Holy Spirit is Who makes it grow.Diven said:Also Stephen death meant nothing more to Paul at the time then another blasphemous follower of the Way out of the way. But later it had an impact on him.
GraceLikeRainFallsDown said:I know who Prescott Bush was. But, to blame a grandson (or even son) for something his grandfather did is ridiculous. This happened before 1942 is my understanding. President Bush was not even born until 1946.
Why keep passing around all this conspiracy theory junk? Who cares if he was a member of some fraternity at Yale. Many have been it means nothing. People make such a big deal out of very unimportant things.
Tell me why it matters what someones Grandfather did before the person you are trying to discredit was even born?
God will not judge President Bush on what sins his Grandfather committed before he was born. God will judge the man on his own sin (let's not list them).
I compared the terrorists to Hitler, not those who excuse terrorism at the expense of Israel. A bit paranoid there, aren't you?Driver said:A few posts above, someone had made the comparison to those Christians who oppose Zionism to Hitler
It hardly serves intelligent discussion to throw in a ridiculous connection (which was still misrepresented) dredged up the the far left wingnuts who are so filled with hatred of anything no left of center as to sacrifice truth for 'spin.'Driver said:so I pointed out the Bush family connection (to those who did not know, already).
My post 67 was a direct response to post 66 (not to you), and he took my response very kindly (post 69).IisJustMe said:I compared the terrorists to Hitler, not those who excuse terrorism at the expense of Israel. A bit paranoid there, aren't you?
It hardly serves intelligent discussion to throw in a ridiculous connection (which was still misrepresented) dredged up the the far left wingnuts who are so filled with hatred of anything no left of center as to sacrifice truth for 'spin.'
IisJustMe said:I compared the terrorists to Hitler, not those who excuse terrorism at the expense of Israel. A bit paranoid there, aren't you?
It hardly serves intelligent discussion to throw in a ridiculous connection (which was still misrepresented) dredged up the the far left wingnuts who are so filled with hatred of anything no left of center as to sacrifice truth for 'spin.'
... and ... ???Driver said:Didn't you write this post?
http://www.christianforums.com/t3240540-what-i-want-to-know-is-this.html&page=1
ContraMundum said:How stupid. Jesus spoke those words to a certain group of people at a certain time and to condemn all Jews to the same fate is pure, vicious and violent neo-nazi anti-semitism. It's flat out disgracefut. Repent.
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