Logic or Lunatic - Fairness or Un-reasonable - Right or Wrong -Defend or Lay Down and

BrokenGhost · Jul 31, 2006

Oh my. I really am at a loss for words. A website, by the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, clearly states that the farms are Syrian land. And somehow you still manage to twist the words that say so into something else. Then you say that Kofi is just a liar. Maybe you think hes a liar, because what he says doesnt agree with your view of the world. Even though THE REST OF THE WORLD agrees with the things that are stated here.

http://www.keshetorah.org/artman/publish/article_4.shtml
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/golan1.html

Now Im sure your gign to find problems with these as well, since they dont agree with Golan having been given to Israel in 1947.

IisJustMe · Jul 31, 2006

Driver said:
Illinois? Or Israel?

I didn't realize that Illinois had a Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa

I guess no one could see my wry smile as I typed that, hm?

IisJustMe · Jul 31, 2006

zerocipher said:
Oh my. I really am at a loss for words. A website, by the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, clearly states that the farms are Syrian land.

Perhaps you'd be good enough to cut-and-paste the exact quote from the MFA web site that allegedly admits that. You can't because its not there, as I pointed out quite sufficiently for you in the other post.

zerocipher said:
Even though THE REST OF THE WORLD agrees with the things that are stated here.

Oh, my! The rest of the world? What was I thinking!! Geez, how could I be so stupid as to disagree with the rest of the world! Oh, wait ... you mean the "rest of the world" as in those who oppose Christ, oppose His people, and oppose Israel? In that case, never mind. I'm in the right place after all.

zerocipher said:
http://www.keshetorah.org/artman/publish/article_4.shtml
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/golan1.html

I don't know if I'd have problems with the first one or not. The link won't load the page. As for the second, its not an official Israeli government site, so whatever it may say is not reflective of the official Israeli position. Still, you seemed to have totally ignored the fact that there is extensive documentation on the site about Israel's history owning and ruling over the Heights from the time of Moses and Joshua, through the Maccabees in the 2nd century BC, and there is no mention of rule other than by Israel until after the time of Christ. There is only one insignificant statement that could be the pivot of your whole argument:

"The Heights became part of Syria upon the termination of the French mandate in 1944"

Wow, that's a really solid case there! That's amazing! You've solved the whole conflict! Quick, call Ehud Olmert, call the Knesset! "Cypher" has ended the war!

Seriously, you have yet to refute my earlier post regarding the Golan being given to Israel in UN resolution 181, which chartered it as a nation. As that was 1947, it postdates your "amazing admission" from 1944. If you can produce anything that counters those points, then we have a discussion. Until then, you're just whining a lot because you're wrong and you don't like it.

BrokenGhost · Aug 1, 2006

Here, maybe this will help you to read what is right there on all those sights in black and white: http://secure.hop.com/

Wags · Aug 1, 2006

Israel is not fighting to gain land and Israel is not fighting to kill innocent people. Israel is fighting to simply SURVIVE!

I can't believe the anti-semetic statements that I'm reading here.

How can I call someone "brother" or "sister" if they want to see me and my family destroyed?

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2006

Poke said:
Hezbollah (by supporting the Palestinians) gave Israel an excuse to start a war when Hezbollah attacked Israeli soldiers who had crossed the border (in case that's not clear to you, it was Israeli soldiers, not Hezbollah, who crossed the boarder). Israel has not attacked Hezbollah, but has attacked Lebanon. Israel has killed hundreds of innocent lebanese citizens. So, I don't know how you figure that Israel hasn't murdered anyone. Nor do I know how you think deliberately attacking innocent people is legitimate self-defense.

100's of innocent civilians killed, multitudes left homeless, infrastructures damaged and/or destroyed etc etc etc.
But warfare and hatred has always permeated the planet and will continue to do so until the Words of our Lord Jesus Christ are followed by all of Mankind. Peace to all.

Matthew 5:1

Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Tishri1 · Aug 1, 2006

Henaynei said:
Shalom Brothers and Sisters in Messiah,

I am excited because I have an encouraging update for you! Hopefully you will find this to be uplifting to your soul in spite of all of the craziness being reported in the Middle East. I think it's important to share with you all of the miraculous things God is doing for His Chosen People during this time of war. I hope to be the voice of Caleb and Joshua (Numbers 14) with a good report of the land instead of a terrible one (like CNN for example - sorry, couldn't resist).

As you all know from my previous update, CFI has started a 2006 War Relief Fund that directly helps the people of Israel during their time of need. (I have attached a copy of CFI's War Relief Fund update). The following are personal stories of how we have invested in the lives of these precious people and how important it is that we continue to bless and support Israel in it's time of crisis.

Battling Stress -
It's no surprise that when times of war are upon us that we sometimes don't realize the extent of the stress we are under. I recently battled with severe neck pain and tension to the point that I could barely eat. Praise the Lord, after much prayer and effort to remain calm, I finally started to recover and no longer have the pain. I truly felt this was an attack of the enemy to pull me down in the midst of some of my most important outreaches that you are about to read.

Meeting Messiah in Haifa -
One week ago, CFI received a frantic phone call from a Jewish mother of four children living in Haifa. Her children were screaming in the background and were crying for her to get back under the table with them as the Katyushas were falling upon Haifa. The woman said she had no food and no money because all of the banks were closed. She also had a daughter that lived up north and was admitted to the hospital for serious wounds from a Katyusha that had landed near her. She asked if there was any way we could help. We said of course and began planning a way to get her the money that same day. We made a connection with one of our contacts from Haifa (a Messianic Congregation leader) that happened to be in Jerusalem and arranged to give him the money. CFI went to cash the check but the bank was closed, however, they made an exception for us when we told them why we needed the money and they opened the bank immediately! The leader delivered the money to the family that evening and the woman was so thankful and became interested in Yeshua just as a result of having her needs met! He prayed with her and she felt God's peace in the midst of her pain.

Distributing more than clothing -
I had the honor of working at our Distribution Center on Friday since we were short-staffed. I got to break out of my usual HR routine and lend a helping hand to some amazing people with severe needs. The following are some of their stories:

The first couple that came into the DC were an older Russian couple. They owned very little and we could tell that they needed help. I assisted them by pulling down bins of clothing in their sizes for them to look through. They gratefully accepted and after the initial awkwardness, they got into it and were able to a giant bag full of nice clothing! They were extremely grateful and it was such an honor to see their joy!

Next, an older Russian woman came in and was in severe need of clothing. I assited her for a long time as she selected clothing. I could tell she was a very lonely woman and possibly mentally disturbed because she talked to herself the entire time as she rummaged through the clothing. I barely held back the tears as I gave her bags full of clothing to take home.

Another woman came in who was in her forties. She had her arm in a cast and her asthma was so bad she could barely breathe. She was in severe financial distress as well. As I helped her pick out several items of clothing, Ranil (fellow volunteer) gave her 500NIS of grocery store food vouchers and money for her perscriptions. She was so grateful for the assistance that she took my hands and with tears in her eyes cried and said, 'Toda Raba' over and over again. I smiled back and held onto her hands while I cried with her. She then signed our guestbook and wrote a note to myself and Ranil to thank us for helping her.

The last fanily that came in was a woman and her daughter who are refugees from Akko. Akko is a Northern town that has been severely damaged by rockets and their house was hit as well. She, her husband and five children have been living in the basement of a church for over a week and will stay there until it is safe enough to return. They had no clothing and I was able to work with her for an hour to pick out a new wardrobe for each member of her family including herself and her husband. We also went grocery shopping for them and purchased a lot of food for the entire family and gave them some extra cash to help out. She was so thankful and kept repeating her thanks over and over again. She said we are the only people that would help them.

It's been so amazing to see how God becomes revealed to His People during times of distress. Please continue to pray for more ways that CFI can reach out to those in need and reflect the love of Messiah in our actions.

Matthew 25:35-40
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.

This is Erin reporting LIVE from Israel...

Please visit my blogsites for pictures and stories: http://braveandunafraid.blogspot.com/
http://culturecrazy.blogspot.com/

ContraMundum · Aug 1, 2006

Poke said:
Lebanon is not Hezbollah. Israel attacked Lebanon, an innocent party.

The weakling and cowardly government of Lebanon has to learn the lesson "you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas" the hard way, doesn't it?

Lebanon has been negligent in following up on the UN resolution to disarm Hezbollah, but instead has elected Hezbollah men to parliament, allowed Hezbollah to rearm and resupply itself within it's borders, unhindered, and now has an army that is toothless compared to Hezbollah's. It has no authroity within its own broders. That's pathetic.

What kind of government is that? Answer: a very, very bad one. Either that- or they are complicit in allowing this to happen within their borders- which is it? Negligence or compliance? If it is negligence, then it is clearly a debacle of stunningly epic proportions, and if it is complicit, then they are criminal and clearly a state harbouring a terrorist organisation, thus a pariah state who need their backside kicked.

Now, they are suffering the repurcussions of their political decisions, and crying like stuck pigs. They started a war and got stung, badly. I think they are being taught a sad, harsh political lesson- you like down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

ContraMundum · Aug 1, 2006

Wags said:
How can I call someone "brother" or "sister" if they want to see me and my family destroyed?

If they support the destruction of our people, they aren't our brethren Wags, pure and simple. Unless two are agreed, then cannot walk together. Shake the dust off the sandals and move on, I say.

Thank goodness most Christians are more supportive of Israel.

ContraMundum · Aug 1, 2006

GordonSlocum said:
Logic or Lunatic - Fairness or Un-reasonable - Right or Wrong -Defend or Lay Down and Die

Illustration:

I am the enemy. I take my gun and shoot at your house. No Cops to come, not one to stop me. I shoot over and over again at your house. You and your family are in the house.

You have weapons you can fight with. You are a Christian. What do you do. I hate you. I am going to kill you, murder you because hate is murder, killing in self-defense is not murder.

I don't care what you think, I am out to eliminate you from the face of the earth. I want what you have, I what the land you live on, I don't want you to have it or anyone that is related to you or like you who defends you to have it. I will murder them too given the chance.

Now you are the one in the house what are you going to do.

Can you answer this illustration:

Will you fight?

Will you try to negotiate?

Will you lay down and die and just let me murder you?

Understand I will not negotiate with you my goal its to remove you and all who think like you off the face of the earth.

What will you do?

My response: I fight, intially to wound and capture, but if that fails I use lethal force.

If it turns out that self-defence is a mortal, unforgivable sin, then it looks like I would go to Hell for defending my kids- which any father would do.

Thank God He is just and knows we should defend ourselves.

Diven · Aug 1, 2006

GordonSlocum said:
Logic or Lunatic - Fairness or Un-reasonable - Right or Wrong -Defend or Lay Down and Die

Illustration:

I am the enemy. I take my gun and shoot at your house. No Cops to come, not one to stop me. I shoot over and over again at your house. You and your family are in the house.

You have weapons you can fight with. You are a Christian. What do you do. I hate you. I am going to kill you, murder you because hate is murder, killing in self-defense is not murder.

I don't care what you think, I am out to eliminate you from the face of the earth. I want what you have, I what the land you live on, I don't want you to have it or anyone that is related to you or like you who defends you to have it. I will murder them too given the chance.

Now you are the one in the house what are you going to do.

Can you answer this illustration:

Will you fight?

Will you try to negotiate?

Will you lay down and die and just let me murder you?

Understand I will not negotiate with you my goal its to remove you and all who think like you off the face of the earth.

What will you do?

Ooo ooo! I know what I will do.
I will take all the weapons I have and just start firing them off in your general direction.
I'' start with a machine gun... oops hit a cyclist and a man walking his dog. Lets go for my shotgun.. oops hit the guys house across the street. I'll throw a grenade... yikes landed under that families van leaving for vacation. Ahh my trusty rocket launcher thats got to work. Whoops that way off.. oh man it hit the school. Great I'm all out of weapons and I still haven't hit you. And now a bunch of other people are coming out of their house towards me with their guns.

Isreal isn't doing this for justice or self defense. The Israeli governement is doing this out of revenge and to show its people that they are doing things.

To be honest I would try to talk you down, at some point though I would probably fight, and as before first to incapacitate you, but if necessary lethal. But why would I assume you couldn't be talked down. To the best of my knowledge hezbollah doesn't want Israelli land, they want sovereignty for Lebanon and for Israel to not meddle in their affairs. Hezbollah is hardly an inoncent all good party in this. But Israel isn't doing anything that will bring an end to this conflict.

If a family wasn't involved (or they are all believers), it might even be reasonable to die. Though I would admit that would be hard to do. For me to die is gain as I would be sent to heaven. If I kill a man about to murder me he has no shot at redemtion.

How bout this one. If you sentance to be executed for a crime you didn't commit. You had been beaten and were about to be hung. People were mocking you. You had a beacon that could send in a massive army to come in and kill all your oppressors and rescue you. Would you activate it?

I probably would, but I'm glad there was one who didn't.

IisJustMe · Aug 1, 2006

Diven said:
But why would I assume you couldn't be talked down.

Oh, gee, I dunno ... maybe because the terrorists have never shown any interest whatsoever in "negotiation." Maybe because every time Israel relaxes its guard, thinking perhaps the terrorists will be willing to live in peace, they wind up with dozens of dead and hundreds of maimed Israelis as the result of suicide bombers crossing from the West Bank to kill innnocent people for no legitimate reason. Maybe because every time Israel complies with UN and other international pleas to show constraint, they are taken advantage of by the terrorists whose sole purpose is to annihilate Israel, and the United States.

Diven said:
To the best of my knowledge Hezbollah doesn't want Israelli land, they want sovereignty for Lebanon and for Israel to not meddle in their affairs.

You obviously don't have a grasp of the situation. You obviously haven't any knowledge of the history of this conflict, or what knowledge you have is pink-fringed with the attitude of terrorist apologists who bend over backwards and ignore facts so as to view the terrorists as victims and Israel as the aggressor, the exact opposite viewpoint from what the facts illustrate.

Hezbollah doesn't give a rats patootie about "Lebanese sovereignty." Lebanon is a pawn of Hezbollah, which finds the disorganized and ineffective government and woefully undermanned and underarmed military a perfect foil for their fanatical and hated-filled goals to destroy the Jewish people. They are cowards who hide behind the skirts of innocent women and behind those women's babies while firing off miniture WMD's against a nation whose sole desire is to live in peace and have the right to exist as every other nation does. This scum is the "nobel warriors" you illogically defend by claiming they have any interest whatsoever in Lebanon's security. Had they any concern at all for Lebanon, they would not hide among innocent civilians, but make war face to face, and not put innocents in harm's way. Hezbollah has the exact same agenda as Adolf Hitler, and deserves the same treatment he got from the allies.

Diven said:
Hezbollah is hardly an inoncent all good party in this. But Israel isn't doing anything that will bring an end to this conflict.

Nice of you to note that Hezbollah isn't a bunch of choir boys. However, you're completely wrong about Israel's actions. They are the only actions that will bring an end to the fighting. Destroying Hitler and his ability to make war was the only way to put an end to his desires for "racial purification" and world dominion, and it the only way the terrorists' similar aims will be negated as well.

Diven said:
If I kill a man about to murder me he has no shot at redemtion.

Do you not understand that the man is convinced his death sends him into the arms of 72 virgins who will serve him for eternity because of his service to Allah in killing infidels? Your concept of redemption doesn't make any difference to him because he believes you to be a fool and a liar for rejecting Allah.

Diven said:
You had a beacon that could send in a massive army to come in and kill all your oppressors and rescue you. Would you activate it? I probably would, but I'm glad there was one who didn't.

The difference is, His death meant something for all mankind. Yours, mine, anyone else's? Its a stupid waste of life, especially if its given thinking that it will mean anything other than victory over the infidel to the one who takes it.

Poke · Aug 1, 2006

Wags said:
Israel is not fighting to gain land and Israel is not fighting to kill innocent people. Israel is fighting to simply SURVIVE!

Israel's survival has nothing to do with this war Israel started.

I can't believe the anti-semetic statements that I'm reading here.

I haven't seen any anti-semetic statements around here.

Diven · Aug 2, 2006

IisJustMe said:
Oh, gee, I dunno ... maybe because the terrorists have never shown any interest whatsoever in "negotiation." Maybe because every time Israel relaxes its guard, thinking perhaps the terrorists will be willing to live in peace, they wind up with dozens of dead and hundreds of maimed Israelis as the result of suicide bombers crossing from the West Bank to kill innnocent people for no legitimate reason. Maybe because every time Israel complies with UN and other international pleas to show constraint, they are taken advantage of by the terrorists whose sole purpose is to annihilate Israel, and the United States.

Maybe because Israel didn't really change its policies which lead to the attacks in the first place. More likely to be fair, the terrorist weren't patient enough to wait for things to drag through Israels goverment. But you are very guilty of lumping all terrorists together. Hezbollah was formed to fight the Israeli occupation of southern lebannon in the 80s. Israel pulled out of Southern Lebannon in 2000 but hatred still remains. Hamas is Palestinian organization who does claim to want to annihilate Israel (not the united states) because they feel Israel occupies what should be palestinian land. Still I believe they could be satisfied with less than all of Israel. Al Qaeda, oh thats the islamic fundamentalist group that wants to whipe out the western world. But this is likely more due to secularism and perceived meddling in the middle eastern world rather than anti-christian, or anti-jew.

You obviously don't have a grasp of the situation. You obviously haven't any knowledge of the history of this conflict, or what knowledge you have is pink-fringed with the attitude of terrorist apologists who bend over backwards and ignore facts so as to view the terrorists as victims and Israel as the aggressor, the exact opposite viewpoint from what the facts illustrate.

The way you have interpreted the facts or had them told to you. Again Israel isn't the only guilty party, I don't need to convince you the wrong doings of Hezbollah and Hamas, so I'm not going to bother present them. I'm trying to defeat the attitude the Israel and the US are all goodie two shoes and have never done anything to deserve anyone conceiving of attacking them.

Hezbollah doesn't give a rats patootie about "Lebanese sovereignty." Lebanon is a pawn of Hezbollah, which finds the disorganized and ineffective government and woefully undermanned and underarmed military a perfect foil for their fanatical and hated-filled goals to destroy the Jewish people.

Yes they found their government undermaned to fight for sovereignty so they formed to fight Israel during the occupation. They still hate Israel, and are sympathetic to Palestinian struggle.

They are cowards who hide behind the skirts of innocent women and behind those women's babies while firing off miniture WMD's against a nation whose sole desire is to live in peace and have the right to exist as every other nation does. This scum is the "nobel warriors" you illogically defend by claiming they have any interest whatsoever in Lebanon's security. Had they any concern at all for Lebanon, they would not hide among innocent civilians, but make war face to face, and not put innocents in harm's way.

Hiding behind civilians is something I disagree with, it isn't nobel of them. They do it because they feel they have no choice, they would be creamed if they were to face Israel Face to Face. Wow mini-WMD what propaganda will they think up next. Large mini-pizzas?

Hezbollah has the exact same agenda as Adolf Hitler, and deserves the same treatment he got from the allies.

Not exactly, they aren't planning to contruct concentration camps and there is actually some merit to their distaste of the Israeli State. You may feel Israel had a right to invade in the 80s but I doubt the Lebanesse saw it this way. Hitler was jealous of Jews able to be financially succesfull while the country on the whole was poor and tortured and killed Jews across Europe.

Nice of you to note that Hezbollah isn't a bunch of choir boys. However, you're completely wrong about Israel's actions. They are the only actions that will bring an end to the fighting. Destroying Hitler and his ability to make war was the only way to put an end to his desires for "racial purification" and world dominion, and it the only way the terrorists' similar aims will be negated as well.

And shelling cities infrastructure and innocent civilians helps this how. Islamic fundamentalism is born out of perceived oppression how is oppressing them more going to kill it. The only way the current strategy works is if they level the whole country but even after that they will not be out of the woods cause now Syria and Iran will feel Justified in launching a full scale attack against Israel. Israel has shown inadequate discression in their targets. Hezbollah is an independant organization within a sovereing country that doesn't by itself have the power to control Hezbollah. The only solution is for Hezbollah to voluntarily disarm (unlikely) or for an extern police type militia to raid Hezbollah Miltary Locations.

Do you not understand that the man is convinced his death sends him into the arms of 72 virgins who will serve him for eternity because of his service to Allah in killing infidels? Your concept of redemption doesn't make any difference to him because he believes you to be a fool and a liar for rejecting Allah.

Here I was refering to the hypothetical situation of a general man comming to kill me. In fact it is actually supposed to be GordonSlocum comming to kill me. Who is a Christian and if I killed him without giving him the chance to repent he could end up unsaved. (Depending on what theology you believe). By this I didn't mean my death would lead to his redemption but that he would remain alive to be redeemed at a later date. And yes I believe my God can save even a Fundamentalist Muslim, and Murderers.

The difference is, His death meant something for all mankind. Yours, mine, anyone else's? Its a stupid waste of life, especially if its given thinking that it will mean anything other than victory over the infidel to the one who takes it.

I don't know I've heard a couple stories of a missionaries killed by waring tribes. But years later (one story was of the son returning, the son was sharing the story, the other was of a wife, potentially the same initial missionary don't remember the name said for either) a relative returned and was able to convert many from the tribe into believers... partly because this relative was able to forgive them for the killing of their father/husband. Also Stephen death meant nothing more to Paul at the time then another blasphemous follower of the Way out of the way. But later it had an impact on him.

IisJustMe · Aug 2, 2006

They know you there.

Your entire post represents a massive -- and inexcusable -- apology for terrorism, an apparently willful ignorance of the motivation for their violence, and a naivete` about their willingness to 'negotiate' a peace they do not have any remote interest in achieving.

You obviously have made the same mistake everyone else willing to apologize for Hezbollah, Hamas, et al has made. You assume the terrorists operate out of desperation. Read the statements of Shiek Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah. Its obvious their movement has been nourished by successes inspired by opportunity. Do you know what UN observers saw appear in South Lebanon after Israel withdrew in May, 2000? (By the way, that was a full seven months before their deadline to do so, while Syria illegally remained in Lebanon with a military presence for at least five years, and despite last year's 'withdrawal' probably never left.)

What the observers found were signs, interestingly written in Arabic and (bad) English. One said, "On Oct. 19, 1988, at 1.25 p.m., a martyr car that was booby trapped with 500 kilograms of exploding materials transformed two Israeli soldiers into masses of fire and limbs." Tourists would take bus tours through Lebanon to view these 'mounuments.' Gift shops were thriving right up to Hezbollah's current rocket campaign, at least one of which had a poster for sale showing a Hezbollah fighter holding up a severed Israeli head.

This was all part of the successful idea that Muslim greatness can be restored through terrorism. If we force a ceasefire now, without allowing Israel to dismantle Hezbollah, we allow Nasralloh to prepare a whole feast of new victories, and we destroy Israel's deterrance ability, because we will have denied them the effective defense of their sovereign borders. All the terrorists have to do from that point forward is attack Israel, and any response from the Jewish nation will again 'call out the dogs' who will raise a hew and cry about them 'attacking defenseless people' which is the largest load of horse manure since Solomon's stables were running at full steam.

People like you are admirable in your disgust for war. But you make the serious mistake of failing to see the need, at times, to wage it against immoral, evil people. That doesn't describe anywhere close to the majority of Arabs and Palestinians, but as long as they allow the immoral, evil fanatics to speak for them and wage terror in their name,that is how the whole population will be seen.

stone · Aug 2, 2006

Poke said:
Israel is not acting in self-defense.

yes they are

stone · Aug 2, 2006

Poke said:
Hezbollah (by supporting the Palestinians) gave Israel an excuse to start a war when Hezbollah attacked Israeli soldiers who had crossed the border (in case that's not clear to you, it was Israeli soldiers, not Hezbollah, who crossed the boarder). Israel has not attacked Hezbollah, but has attacked Lebanon. Israel has killed hundreds of innocent lebanese citizens. So, I don't know how you figure that Israel hasn't murdered anyone. Nor do I know how you think deliberately attacking innocent people is legitimate self-defense.

It was Hezbollah that had been fireing rockets into Israel randomnly over the last several months, and it was them that came into Israel and kidnapped two soldiers.

stone · Aug 2, 2006

Bernergirl said:
I'm not very well-versed in the Israel/Hezbollah conflict, but as an answer to the illustration and a question to the posters: can you give a scriptural reference for self-defense not being sin? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm asking a sincere question as I am a new Christian and a making my way through the Bible for the first time. I haven't seen anything that says self-defense is not sin (but I'm not that far in) however, I do seem to recall Christ saying "Do not resist an evil-doer..."

Exodus 21:22-36 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. 26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. 27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake. 28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. 29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. 30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him. 31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him. 32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. 33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein; 34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his. 35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide. 36 Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.

Diven · Aug 2, 2006

stone said:
Exodus 21:22-36 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. 26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. 27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake. 28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. 29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. 30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him. 31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him. 32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. 33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein; 34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his. 35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide. 36 Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.

I'm not making an apology for Terrorist. I've said repeatedly that Hezbollah, Hamas etc. are guilty of evil. But go ahead keep believing that Israel is doing its utmost to hit Hezbollah military targets with every shell. And that Hitler was trying for world domination (He wasn't not that expanding his territory and racially purifying of Jews isn't enought to make him the most evil man in the world).

I am by no means an advocate of peace at any cost. I have not said Israel should do nothing. Only that its current campaign is ineffectivc. Hezbollah and Hamas are blinded by hatred and distrust, many of them especially the higher ups have hard hearts that will stop at nothing short of Israel again becoming an Islamic state. That doesn't mean that initial said organization weren't birthed out of desparation or that recent recruits and those considering joining havn't joined because they feel they are doing what is right for their country.

A couple verses of scripture.

Matthew 5:38-48 said:
An Eye for an Eye

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Romans 12:9-21 said:
Love

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Verse 17-21 are likely the only way terrorism will ever be defeated. Yet I have my doubts of either Islamic or Jewish people adopting a Christian concept as such. Heck I have doubt that Christians with power will do this. Verse 9 says to hate what is evil so I mad sure I included that. Yes we should hate the evil act of terrorist and seek to protect against, incapacitate, and bring to justice those who orchestrate or execute terrorist missions. I am filled with Joy when I saw Gordon post about the Baptists providing for the needs of the Lebanesse and Israelly people who are suffering in these areas. We need more of this. There will be missionaries who pay with their life for simply helping out these people. But this is what we need if we want lasting peace in the region.

Only Christ there can save it.

2 Corinthians 10:4 said:
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Ephesians 6:12 said:
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

IisJustMe · Aug 2, 2006

... in order to defend their willful ignorance?
1. Israel did not 'invade' Lebanon or send any of its soldiers across the border prior to the Hebollah kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, the first soldier taken. The 19-year-old (read my lips) was not in Gaza or Lebanon. He was in Israel! Therefore the provocation for Israel's incursions into Gaza to rescue Shalit was solely and completely on Hazbollah, not Israel.

2. Hezbollah is forcing Israel to hit civilian targets by hiding among the civilians. In the most heinous of cowardly acts, these 'big, he-man terrorists who are afraid of nothing' hide among their own women and children, as well as the women and children of strangers, launching rockets from behind the skirts of the innocent, apparently thinking Israel is stupid enough to let them freely launch those rockets from amongst 'unthinkable' targets but at the same time secretly hoping Israel will strike the civilian areas so they can get al-Jezeera to air video of the innocent dead and dying.

This is a greater but similar sin to what the Viet Cong did to US troops in Vietnam, strapping grenades to children and sending them rushing into crowds of our servicemen, forcing soldiers to do the 'unthinkable,' i.e., killing a child before he could kill a platoon. You think this is a 'moral, reasonable' movement? Think again. You're naivete` is dangerous for you and the whole world.

3. That brings up the last (for now) of my points. You think these people want peace? That they are willing to negotiate with Israel or the US? Again, your naivete` will get you and other innocents killed. They have no interest in peace. Their only interest is in the destruction of Israel, the US, and all other 'infidel' countries. Sheik Hassan Nasrallah has convinced the ignorant poor that their 'higher calling' is the restoration of Islam to its 'former glory' through terrorism. As long as the people of Lebanon and other Arab countries let such fanatical evil be the rule of their leaders, we are doomed to fight the same kind of unreasoning hatred until we destroy it.

Trust me, destroying it is the only way it will be brought to an end. To think otherwise is to be completely out of touch with reality.

Logic or Lunatic - Fairness or Un-reasonable - Right or Wrong -Defend or Lay Down and

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