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Living in Sin.....

McWilliams

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shadrach_ said:
I have heard it said that if you "convert" to Christianity but continue to live in sin, you were never really saved. So if myself and my fiancee still live together and have not married yet, does that mean we are not saved?

When a person believes God's word and comes to Him in faith they then have an intense desire to please Him, live only for Him and detest the very thought of doing anything displeasing to Him! Their submission of their own will to His and their life bearing fruit of their belief is witness to whom they serve!
 
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Imblessed

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shadrach_ said:
I have heard it said that if you "convert" to Christianity but continue to live in sin, you were never really saved. So if myself and my fiancee still live together and have not married yet, does that mean we are not saved?

wouldn't that depend? Are you abstaining? Are you trying to find other living arrangements? Are you telling people that it doesn't really matter that you are living together, that since you were before you were saved, it doesn't count? Are you trying to justify it? Is there even an explicit rule in the bible that states that you can't live together before marraige? There seems to be a myriad of circumstances to consider before you start telling someone they are not saved because they are "living in sin".

We all still do things we know we shouldn't, and we all still justify whatever it is that we still do....even while we know it's wrong. "living in sin" seems to me to be no worse than some other sins that people do and justify.

My personal opinion? If you are still living together, seriously sit down and discuss this with your fiance, and see if the living arrangements can be changed, or start abstaining until marriage. I think God would truly bless you both for your committment to do what is right before Him. Not only would you feel good about following God, but the world would see your commitment to God, and your maturity level would go up. Maturity in Christ does not come easily, especially in the face of what society doesn't even see as 'wrong'.

In Christ
windi
 
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rmwilliamsll

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it is a tough question.
build a relationship with an elder in your church and talk with him about it.
it is not going to be settled in a few words or over a few meetings. it is certainly not going to be settled here.

1-what does it mean to be married?
is a ceremony necessary?
are Christians married differently than not-Christians?
what is the relationship of sex to marriage?

2-when you are converted sanctification is not immediate, (justification however is), but works out over time. what does that mean in this case?

look at the advice Paul gives
20Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21Were you a slave[c] when called? Do not be concerned about it. But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity. 22For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ. 23You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24So, brothers,[d] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.
1 Corinthians 7 (English Standard Version)



3-how do we learn the will of God? what are the means of grace and how does doing God's Will teach us?

4-the same kind of issues happen when polygamists are converted to the faith. that too has traditionally been handled very badly by missionaries.

lots of important questions
work out your salvation with fear and trembling....
 
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McWilliams said:
When a person believes God's word and comes to Him in faith they then have an intense desire to please Him, live only for Him and detest the very thought of doing anything displeasing to Him! Their submission of their own will to His and their life bearing fruit of their belief is witness to whom they serve!
Great advice already given, my only comment might be to see if you can have a simple, private ceremony soon and a big, celebration whenever it is you have that planned for. I know someone who did that.

CC&E
 
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ClementofRome

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rmwilliamsll said:
it is a tough question.
build a relationship with an elder in your church and talk with him about it.
it is not going to be settled in a few words or over a few meetings. it is certainly not going to be settled here.

1-what does it mean to be married?
is a ceremony necessary?
are Christians married differently than not-Christians?
what is the relationship of sex to marriage?

2-when you are converted sanctification is not immediate, (justification however is), but works out over time. what does that mean in this case?

look at the advice Paul gives

1 Corinthians 7 (English Standard Version)



3-how do we learn the will of God? what are the means of grace and how does doing God's Will teach us?

4-the same kind of issues happen when polygamists are converted to the faith. that too has traditionally been handled very badly by missionaries.

lots of important questions
work out your salvation with fear and trembling....

rm, these are some great questions, especially #1. I have often considered the question of what does it mean to be married and I have come to the following conclusion (getting ready to be attacked on this one for sure)...

Marriage is firstly before God and secondly before the world. Marriage is a religious covenant and the government has no place in the matter (so I reject the idea of civil marriages or unions....whatever the govt wants to do is fine, but just don't call it marriage). Certainly standing up in the front of the church and the pastor and reciting vows is a more recent advent. In the OT, marriage was a party with lots of eating and drinking of wine followed by the tent of consummation. I am of the opinion that a couple who has totally committed themselved first to God and then to one another and have entered into this marriage covenant with God are married. Whatever other dressings that society or the "church" or any other insititution places on the covenant of holy matrimony are just that....dressing.
 
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McWilliams

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Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation!
Romans 13:1,2

We are all to be subject to the laws of our land and must obey them! Marriage is ordained of God but subject also to the government!
 
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rmwilliamsll

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McWilliams said:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation!
Romans 13:1,2

We are all to be subject to the laws of our land and must obey them! Marraige is ordained of God but subject also to the government!

canofworms.png
 
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heymikey80

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shadrach_ said:
I have heard it said that if you "convert" to Christianity but continue to live in sin, you were never really saved. So if myself and my fiancee still live together and have not married yet, does that mean we are not saved?
Mmm, no it does not, not on its own.

However, having a lackadaisical attitude toward sexual promiscuity, a feeling that it's "no big deal" should cause you to question your own heart. The way we know whether we know Jesus Christ, is by examining whether we're doing what He commands (1 Jn 2:3). This does not mean we know Him by doing, it means we know Him so we have some idea how much it means to Him. If you don't have that, then you might rightly question whether you're really relying on Jesus Christ. Or just playing at ... I don't know, religion, apologetics, philosophy of spirituality, or something else.

On the other hand, you're asking about it. That's an amazingly optimistic sign: something I was scared to death about in regards to my own thoughts before marriage. I feel for ya, too. I've been very close to that, and I really can relate. Look, none of us is immune to sin here. The older of us who've been through similar things are all vexed and hounded by our history of feeling wrong and doing wrong and hoping we can "get out of it" or not "make a fuss" about it. We want to minimize it, and we hope God minimizes our sin.

But that's not the way Christianity works. I want to spare you of that extended vexation, of handling this wrongly. If anything Christianity puts a magnifying glass on our sins, to show us our own sins' real ugliness.

If you can't desist, talk heart to heart with a Reformed pastor about it -- someone who won't minimize it to you. Consider the advice to be joined in marriage right now before God, and then work toward the ceremony if that's what you and yours desire. Consider how this will affect your walk, ten years' hence. Recognize it needs to be dealt-with well and wisely now. Then this one case will not dog you for years to come.

My bride of 20 years put it on our invitations, and I love to remember the thought: "to be united in marriage // before God," that day so long ago. The question is whether you wish to be married before God, as you're outwardly married yet not before Him.

One fact caught me up short when I was going astray in this area. Many of the martyred Christians of the first and second century were discovered by their accusers because of their desire for sexual purity. They quit going to the orgies instituted by Roman rule. They weren't present when the gods of Bacchus and Aphrodite were called into market on their feast days. This was probably after they had been going to the orgies and feasts -- otherwise they wouldn't have been missed.

But they were missed. They were discovered, convicted, and put to death. All because of their intense desire for purity before God.

That's the example we're left with from the early church. Would that we could keep up with it.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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One fact caught me up short when I was going astray in this area. Many of the martyred Christians of the first and second century were discovered by their accusers because of their desire for sexual purity. They quit going to the orgies instituted by Roman rule. They weren't present when the gods of Bacchus and Aphrodite were called into market on their feast days. This was probably after they had been going to the orgies and feasts -- otherwise they wouldn't have been missed.

But they were missed. They were discovered, convicted, and put to death. All because of their intense desire for purity before God.

That's the example we're left with from the early church. Would that we could keep up with it.



i'd like to read more about this but came up empty handed via google, do you have a few references handy? thanks.
 
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heymikey80

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rmwilliamsll said:
i'd like to read more about this but came up empty handed via google, do you have a few references handy? thanks.
Sure.

The story of Agnes, even when pulled apart from its devotional enhancements, tells the story of a girl who rebuffs a suitor at some level for purity's sake and is denounced as a Christian and beheaded for it. http://www.saintagnescowan.com/saint.php

Agatha's story follows similar lines, and the traditional stories may have crossed lines at some point between the two. Again, thre's a lot of tradition that's built up around martyrs, and you have to read with some sense of reality versus legend -- but condensing them down to history still points up the basics: http://www.catholic-forum.com/Saints/sainta04.htm

Margaret of Antioch / Pelagia under Diocletian is another. http://wwwa.britannica.com/eb/article-9050854

There's an unnamed woman in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History who arguably runs the same line, where her husband denounced her as a Christian for living a life more upright than he was -- he then denounced the people teaching his wife as well. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.ix.xvii.html

There's a series of martyrs who are described as protecting their chastity by forfeiting their lives.

Eusebius' "Ecclesiastical History" describes the letters of Caesars Trajan and Hadrian pointing out that those denounced as Christians seem to have excellent practical morals, yet are denounced for other motives.
 
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heymikey80

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I thought there was somewhere else I was pulling on for this too. Peter:
Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 1 Pt 4:1-4​
 
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inchristalone221

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Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation!
Romans 13:1,2

We are all to be subject to the laws of our land and must obey them! Marraige is ordained of God but subject also to the government!

But, as Theodore Beza demonstrated, manifest tyranny need not be endured. The interference of the government in marriage (including licensing) is a gross infringment of the laws of our land (first ammendment for example). When a government ceases to abide by its own laws, it has become a tyrannical state rather then a godly government.

Sorry, this is off track.
 
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JJB

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Consider Jesus' words to the adulterous woman in John 8. He tells her he will not condemn her, but to go and sin no more.

You need to have an open, honest discussion with the mother of your children and decide whether to marry or part. Whichever decision you make, do not hestitate. Do it immediately.
 
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