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Literal or not?

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conflicted

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Hi Guys

I have only recently been saved...and have a MILLION questions :eek: The Bible is somewhat confusing I find...I am trying my best to understand it, and know that I will in time.
My question is this: Is the entire Bible literal? or are some of the things written about merely metaphores? Here are the main topics which confuse me:
1) The creation of earth. Is it literally 7 days, or is a day a much longer period?
2)The ark. How big would it have to be to fit 2 of each animal inside? So again, is it a story or did it actually happen?

I hope I don't offend anyone with my ignorance, but its just that these things seem unfathomable (in my mind, by modern standards...which is the kind of thinking I would like to get rid of)

Please guys...any and all posts will be highly appreciated.

God Bless you all :)
 

intricatic

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Well, you've hit two primary points that are in serious controversy in the arena of thinkers today.

1) The creation account.
2) Noah's ark.

For both of them, in practice, I'd suggest that you simply understand that there's a lot of controversy but that neither of them are altogether serious when it comes to what the foundations of faith should rest on.

Now, on to the nitty gritty mess. To begin with, you have to understand a few key points [I'll address the creation account first]. First of all, you need to understand that God created everything that exists, from your ability to read this sentence, to the materials the computer you're reading it on is made from, to the table that the computer is sitting on, to the city you live in, etc..etc... ad nauseam. It's all God's creation - He made it, we utilize it and claim our logic and our designs belong to us - but we, ourselves, belong to God by circumstance of being part of creation. This being said, we can now move on to point two.

This [point 1] is what the creation account is, essentially. The understanding and expression that everything in this world belongs to God as He created it; science is a very unstable foundation to place any understanding of reality as it's continually evolving and shifting, as has been human philosophy for the entire history of both. One of the biggest myths that our generation has been taught is that we're isolated in an isolated world, and that we belong to ourselves. This becomes a huge issue because this is essentially what science presents us when it talks about nature and the world.

Now, with this perspective, let's look at Genesis. The creation account states that God made everything in seven days. The first day;

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.



Obviously, if we're going to take what we currently know about science as absolute and unchanging fact, this presents a problem for any observer. It's problematic because it states the Earth existed before the sun, and that the Earth was entirely covered in water. This also relies on a huge amount of assumptions. First of all, we have to presume that this form of an account isn't possible in nature as we know it. Of course, no amount of human understanding will ever be able to substantiate what actually occured in the creation account as it's stated in such a way that it's hard to determine exactly what is transpiring; the people writing this had no understanding of modern science, so it wasn't presented in a scientific way. This is basically how all of it (still on the 1st and 2nd chapters of Genesis) is, including the creation of biologic life, the creation of botanic life, the creation of human life, etc... The absolutely critical question is whether or not it's important for the Earth to be incredibly old, or incredibly young. I don't know about you, but if science can absolutely demonstrate [which, mind you, would be a first in science as we know it] that the Earth is some billions of years old, it's not going to hurt my faith one iota. God is still God, Jesus still died for our sins and was resurrected on the third day, the early Church still existed beyond overwhelming odds that it'd have vanished if Jesus was mythological, and Christianity still exists today as the most sensible solution to the problem of existence. I hope this is a sufficient explanation, as I absolutely abhore getting into creationism vs. evolution, etc..etc.. debates. It drives me nuts. :D

This is what's important: Link. The later half of Genesis 2 is also quite important as it details why God created the world and mankind the way He did. That's what, essentially, you should take the creation account to be; an explanation of why and what form but not a serious explanation of how, although it really doesn't matter one way or the other. It's usually better to simply take it with a grain of salt - it's better for your faith if you don't feel it's constantly being challenged by science, you have to understand what science is; our interpretation of what God created - with God taken out of the picture.

Continued on next post... [EDIT: When I have time, I'm at school right now ( :sorry: ) and the next post will probably require a bit of research to pull up the information required - Have patience! :D].
 
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intricatic

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To the question of whether the entire Bible is literal or not: Hermeneutics is a complex subject, I'm only just begining to learn about it [1 year or so of non-dedicated study], but not all of the Bible is absolutely literal in it's wording. Some is poetic, other is prophetic, other is historical narrative, then there's teachings/wisdom, etc.. all of which require different interpretive measures to understand. The parts you're asking about are taken as historic narrative, and are generally understood as such by hermeneutic method.
 
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jon914

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conflicted said:
Hi Guys

I have only recently been saved...and have a MILLION questions :eek: The Bible is somewhat confusing I find...I am trying my best to understand it, and know that I will in time.
My question is this: Is the entire Bible literal? or are some of the things written about merely metaphores? Here are the main topics which confuse me:
1) The creation of earth. Is it literally 7 days, or is a day a much longer period?
2)The ark. How big would it have to be to fit 2 of each animal inside? So again, is it a story or did it actually happen?

I hope I don't offend anyone with my ignorance, but its just that these things seem unfathomable (in my mind, by modern standards...which is the kind of thinking I would like to get rid of)

Please guys...any and all posts will be highly appreciated.

God Bless you all :)


My learned Friend Intricatc is correct as he normally is.
Let me give you a couple of nuts and bolts. I have been studying since 1973 and if you really want to understand what a book is saying, here is what I do.
Read a book throught each day for 30 days. You will then understand what the Holy spirit is saying. Also if you have a question on a verse, ask youself this.
WHO is speaking
to WHOM is he speaking to
WHAT is the question
WHY was it asked
WHERE were they when asked
WHEN in history

This is if you really want to understand and not get lost with the others.;)

John914
II Tim 2:2
 
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intricatic

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Jon's got some good advice. ;)

When it comes to the historic narratives, though, it can be a bit tricky - especially speaking of Genesis. However, as I said, it's definitely not the most critical part of scripture; human sciences will come and go, but God's Word is eternal.
 
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Beasley

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conflicted said:
Hi Guys

I have only recently been saved...and have a MILLION questions :eek: The Bible is somewhat confusing I find...I am trying my best to understand it, and know that I will in time.
My question is this: Is the entire Bible literal? or are some of the things written about merely metaphores? Here are the main topics which confuse me:
1) The creation of earth. Is it literally 7 days, or is a day a much longer period?
2)The ark. How big would it have to be to fit 2 of each animal inside? So again, is it a story or did it actually happen?

I hope I don't offend anyone with my ignorance, but its just that these things seem unfathomable (in my mind, by modern standards...which is the kind of thinking I would like to get rid of)

Please guys...any and all posts will be highly appreciated.

God Bless you all :)
Hi Conflicted:

In Gen 1:3, it establishs day as day and night as night. We know it is literal because God gave Israel a lunar calendar. God called it evening and morning. And evening and morning are the cycle for the rest of the passage.

On the ark, actually, it was not just 2 of every kind. Noah was commanded to take 7 pairs of the clean animals, but only 2 pairs of the unclean. Clean animals were those acceptable for sacrifice to God, and unclean animals were not to be used for sacrifices. They would fit given the dimensions listed. It was 437.5' long x 72.92' wide x 43.75 high.. And according to Gen 6:16 it had 3 decks. These numbers were taken from William Wenstrom's Genesis study. He gave a lot of great detail. http://www.graceinaction.info/modules.php?name=Media&op=getpage&selSeries=8&selTopic=1&newPage=4

The Bible is literal, but that does not mean it does not use analogy, metaphore, symbolism in some places etc. There is a saying that goes 'if it makes sense, seek no other sense.' A writer writes to be understood. He has a message he is trying to communicate.
The Bible is Gods message to mankind, he intended it to be understood. To quote Thomas Ice "
Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method and they are in no way contrary to literal interpretation. After all, the very existence of any meaning for a figure of speech depends on the reality of the literal meaning of the terms involved. Figures often make the meaning plainer, but it is the literal, normal, or plain meaning that they convey to the reader.http://www.raptureready.com/featured/LiteralvsAllegoricalInterpretation.html#_edn8

Non-dispensationalist Bernard Ramm in his widely accepted textbook on biblical interpretation says,

The program of literal interpretation of Scripture does not overlook the figures of speech, the symbols, the types, the allegories that as a matter of fact are to be found in Holy Scripture. It is not a blind letterism nor a wooden literalism as is so often the accusation.[FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]" [/FONT]Usually when any of these are used, symbolism, etc., the Bible will intrepret itself. [FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]

[/FONT]A non-literal, allegorical approach allows the intrepreter to make the text say anything he wants it to say. One example is that a non-literal intrepretation was used to develop Mariology or the worship of Mary practiced in Catholicism. It leads to mysticism and error.
[FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]
[/FONT]Beasley[FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]
[/FONT]
 
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conflicted

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intricatic said:
To the question of whether the entire Bible is literal or not: Hermeneutics is a complex subject, I'm only just begining to learn about it [1 year or so of non-dedicated study], but not all of the Bible is absolutely literal in it's wording. Some is poetic, other is prophetic, other is historical narrative, then there's teachings/wisdom, etc.. all of which require different interpretive measures to understand. The parts you're asking about are taken as historic narrative, and are generally understood as such by hermeneutic method.
WHOA!!! What an awesome detailed post! Thanks man :) Lotsa big words 2. Being very new to all of this...I guess it's gonna take some time to understand it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond :)
God Bless :)
 
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conflicted

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Beasley said:
Hi Conflicted:

In Gen 1:3, it establishs day as day and night as night. We know it is literal because God gave Israel a lunar calendar. God called it evening and morning. And evening and morning are the cycle for the rest of the passage.

On the ark, actually, it was not just 2 of every kind. Noah was commanded to take 7 pairs of the clean animals, but only 2 pairs of the unclean. Clean animals were those acceptable for sacrifice to God, and unclean animals were not to be used for sacrifices. They would fit given the dimensions listed. It was 437.5' long x 72.92' wide x 43.75 high.. And according to Gen 6:16 it had 3 decks. These numbers were taken from William Wenstrom's Genesis study. He gave a lot of great detail. http://www.graceinaction.info/modules.php?name=Media&op=getpage&selSeries=8&selTopic=1&newPage=4

The Bible is literal, but that does not mean it does not use analogy, metaphore, symbolism in some places etc. There is a saying that goes 'if it makes sense, seek no other sense.' A writer writes to be understood. He has a message he is trying to communicate.
The Bible is Gods message to mankind, he intended it to be understood. To quote Thomas Ice "
Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method and they are in no way contrary to literal interpretation. After all, the very existence of any meaning for a figure of speech depends on the reality of the literal meaning of the terms involved. Figures often make the meaning plainer, but it is the literal, normal, or plain meaning that they convey to the reader.

Non-dispensationalist Bernard Ramm in his widely accepted textbook on biblical interpretation says,

The program of literal interpretation of Scripture does not overlook the figures of speech, the symbols, the types, the allegories that as a matter of fact are to be found in Holy Scripture. It is not a blind letterism nor a wooden literalism as is so often the accusation.[FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]" [/FONT]Usually when any of these are used, symbolism, etc., the Bible will intrepret itself. [FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]

[/FONT]A non-literal, allegorical approach allows the intrepreter to make the text say anything he wants it to say. One example is that a non-literal intrepretation was used to develop Mariology or the worship of Mary practiced in Catholicism. It leads to mysticism and error.
[FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]
[/FONT]Beasley[FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua]
[/FONT]
HI Beasley

Thank-you for your post. I must say...I started getting lost at "The Bible is literal..." :help: A few too many big words there ;) I kinda got what you were saying though.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
God Bless you :)
 
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intricatic

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conflicted said:
WHOA!!! What an awesome detailed post! Thanks man :) Lotsa big words 2. Being very new to all of this...I guess it's gonna take some time to understand it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond :)
God Bless :)
You can sum it up to it's basic form like this: Human science is detached from God, and therefore lacks a proper foundation. In other words, the questions about the two topics mentioned are not the important questions as pertains to theology and the understanding of God's work on Earth. If you want, I can give you an idea of what the important questions are, though. :)
 
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conflicted

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intricatic said:
You can sum it up to it's basic form like this: Human science is detached from God, and therefore lacks a proper foundation. In other words, the questions about the two topics mentioned are not the important questions as pertains to theology and the understanding of God's work on Earth. If you want, I can give you an idea of what the important questions are, though. :)
Yes please :)
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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conflicted said:
I have only recently been saved...and have a MILLION questions :eek: The Bible is somewhat confusing I find...I am trying my best to understand it, and know that I will in time.

Hi conflicted,
Questions are great. It shows you are thinking. I would recommend you read through the gospel of John. Its one of the easier books to understand for new Christians.

conflicted said:
My question is this: Is the entire Bible literal? or are some of the things written about merely metaphores?

The Bible is not so much literal as it is literature. Much of it is in a narrative form - that is, the Bible is a collection of interrelated historical stories that have important significance and meaning (Genesis 18). Other parts of the Bible are in poetic form which contain metaphors and imagery. Psalm 3 is one example, and Exodus 15 is a song. There is also what is called wisdom literature, which are short sayings or proverbs which are meant to be reflected upon. The sayings in Proverbs 15 are examples of these. Many of the New Testament books written by Paul are in letter form.

conflicted said:
Here are the main topics which confuse me:
1) The creation of earth. Is it literally 7 days, or is a day a much longer period?

Christians have different views on this. The context of Genesis 1 points to a literal day. When the Hebrew word for "day" is used with a number adjective, it indicates a literal day.

There are related issues that aren't addressed by the text, such as the age of the earth. Some Christians think the earth is only some thousands of years old, while others hold to millions or billions years old.

conflicted said:
2)The ark. How big would it have to be to fit 2 of each animal inside? So again, is it a story or did it actually happen?

The flood actually happened, Noah was a real person and Noah built an ark. Genesis 6-9 is in a Biblical narrative form, which means it is non-fiction rather than a made up story. Noah also stood in a genealogical line stretching back to Adam, and which continued through his sons and to Abraham. Christians however do differ on whether the flood was universal (covering the entire earth) or was localized (covering the lands of the Middle East).

As for the dimensions of the Ark, the Bible gives us those in Genesis 6:15 - This is how you should make it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.

From articles I've read in the past, the dimensions are said to be more than sufficient to handle a small floating zoo.

conflicted said:
I hope I don't offend anyone with my ignorance, but its just that these things seem unfathomable (in my mind, by modern standards...which is the kind of thinking I would like to get rid of)

You certainly aren't offending anyone, you have very good questions. Its great to see the enthusiasm in a new Christian also. Remember though, that rarely is there a "singular" simple answer to complex issues such as you have raised. Christians do take a lot of different options and interpretations on these matters. I believe its very important for Christians to be thinking Christians.

Lamorak Des Galis
 
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conflicted

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LamorakDesGalis said:
Hi conflicted,
Questions are great. It shows you are thinking. I would recommend you read through the gospel of John. Its one of the easier books to understand for new Christians.



The Bible is not so much literal as it is literature. Much of it is in a narrative form - that is, the Bible is a collection of interrelated historical stories that have important significance and meaning (Genesis 18). Other parts of the Bible are in poetic form which contain metaphors and imagery. Psalm 3 is one example, and Exodus 15 is a song. There is also what is called wisdom literature, which are short sayings or proverbs which are meant to be reflected upon. The sayings in Proverbs 15 are examples of these. Many of the New Testament books written by Paul are in letter form.



Christians have different views on this. The context of Genesis 1 points to a literal day. When the Hebrew word for "day" is used with a number adjective, it indicates a literal day.

There are related issues that aren't addressed by the text, such as the age of the earth. Some Christians think the earth is only some thousands of years old, while others hold to millions or billions years old.



The flood actually happened, Noah was a real person and Noah built an ark. Genesis 6-9 is in a Biblical narrative form, which means it is non-fiction rather than a made up story. Noah also stood in a genealogical line stretching back to Adam, and which continued through his sons and to Abraham. Christians however do differ on whether the flood was universal (covering the entire earth) or was localized (covering the lands of the Middle East).

As for the dimensions of the Ark, the Bible gives us those in Genesis 6:15 - This is how you should make it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.

From articles I've read in the past, the dimensions are said to be more than sufficient to handle a small floating zoo.



You certainly aren't offending anyone, you have very good questions. Its great to see the enthusiasm in a new Christian also. Remember though, that rarely is there a "singular" simple answer to complex issues such as you have raised. Christians do take a lot of different options and interpretations on these matters. I believe its very important for Christians to be thinking Christians.

Lamorak Des Galis
Lamorak Des Galis...thank you so much for your enlightening post. You answered my questions perfectly :)
Another important question I forgot to ask was about Adam and Eve. Do you think God only created THEM or do you think Adam might have referred to men and Eve to women?
Incest is a sin is it not? So if we all decend from Adam and Eve would it not be considered incestuous?
 
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intricatic

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conflicted said:
Another important question I forgot to ask was about Adam and Eve. Do you think God only created THEM or do you think Adam might have referred to men and Eve to women?
Incest is a sin is it not? So if we all decend from Adam and Eve would it not be considered incestuous?
Incest is a sin now, but that one can in part be answered by genetics.

It wasn't a problem in the first few generations beacuse the genetic quality was almost totally pure - after it began to degrade it became a problem. Adam and Eve - IMHO - were two real people.

Yes please :)

This is a good site to get info on hermeneutics [for the most part]. But basically, in the OT, there are a lot of themes that you'll start to notice that relate entirely to Jesus' life, teaching, and crucifixion / resurrection. It's an important thing to understand God's character in order to understand Jesus' teachings, and Genesis 1 is a fine place to start. ;)
 
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crusadernoel

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conflicted said:
Hi Guys

I have only recently been saved...and have a MILLION questions :eek: The Bible is somewhat confusing I find...I am trying my best to understand it, and know that I will in time.
My question is this: Is the entire Bible literal? or are some of the things written about merely metaphores? Here are the main topics which confuse me:
1) The creation of earth. Is it literally 7 days, or is a day a much longer period?
2)The ark. How big would it have to be to fit 2 of each animal inside? So again, is it a story or did it actually happen?

I hope I don't offend anyone with my ignorance, but its just that these things seem unfathomable (in my mind, by modern standards...which is the kind of thinking I would like to get rid of)

Please guys...any and all posts will be highly appreciated.

God Bless you all :)
Yes. It is to be taken literally. It is the literal word of God. He makes many demands of us and if we fail to comply we are Hell bound so study your Bible hard and pray that you please the Lord in your endeavours brother.
 
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wtopneuma

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conflicted said:
Hi Guys

I have only recently been saved...and have a MILLION questions :eek: The Bible is somewhat confusing I find...I am trying my best to understand it, and know that I will in time.
My question is this: Is the entire Bible literal? or are some of the things written about merely metaphores? Here are the main topics which confuse me:
1) The creation of earth. Is it literally 7 days, or is a day a much longer period?
2)The ark. How big would it have to be to fit 2 of each animal inside? So again, is it a story or did it actually happen?

I hope I don't offend anyone with my ignorance, but its just that these things seem unfathomable (in my mind, by modern standards...which is the kind of thinking I would like to get rid of)

Please guys...any and all posts will be highly appreciated.

God Bless you all :)
The Bible can be literal and still use metaphors to make the literal teaching clearer. Parables are metaphors but the teaching of Jesus was literal.
 
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ebia

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wtopneuma said:
The Bible can be literal and still use metaphors to make the literal teaching clearer. Parables are metaphors but the teaching of Jesus was literal.
In other words, it's literal except when it's not.
 
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ebia

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conflicted said:
Hi Guys

I have only recently been saved...and have a MILLION questions :eek: The Bible is somewhat confusing I find...I am trying my best to understand it, and know that I will in time.
My question is this: Is the entire Bible literal?
Of course not. It's a mix of literary genres (none of which are remotely similar to a modern historical or scientific report).


or are some of the things written about merely metaphores? Here are the main topics which confuse me:
1) The creation of earth. Is it literally 7 days, or is a day a much longer period?
In the context of the story, a day is literally a day, but Genesis 1 is a story (in the form of a liturgical poem), not a history lesson. It's purpose is to explain something of the relationship between God, Creation and us, and to teach us about the need for work and for rest in balance. It's not meant to be an account of the actually chronology or mechanism of Creation, but a story to tell a far more important truth.

2)The ark. How big would it have to be to fit 2 of each animal inside?
About the size of a zoo.

So again, is it a story or did it actually happen?
It might have it's roots in a real event, but the story as we recieve it is a just that - a story to tell a truth.
 
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