"literal Heaven and Hell" (?)

[Forrest GOP]

Hello all,

I was reading the statement/rules of this particular forum (Conservative Christians) and was pleased to conclude that I can honestly say I accept everything in it. I was waiting to see some little twist which, as a Catholic, I could not accept. But my hat is off to whoever wrote the statement, because they did an excellent job of making it acceptable to Catholics and Protestants alike.

I am curious, though, how some people take the phrase ""literal Heaven and Hell" which is contained in the statement. I obviously believe in Heaven and Hell, so there is no problem there. But I was just wondering what exactly was meant by the qualifier "literal".

 

[Katarinea]

I believe the qualifier "literal" is saying that one believes in an actual physical Heaven and Hell, not merely that these places will be a state of mind.

 

[Forrest GOP]

I believe the qualifier "literal" is saying that one believes in an actual physical Heaven and Hell, not merely that these places will be a state of mind.

Well, this should be intersting then.

Spirits cannot exist in "physical" places. You do know that, right? You cannot get to heaven by swinging past Neptune and going around to the backside of Pluto or something like that. Heaven is not "over there" or "up there", and hell is not "down there". They are not "physical" places.

But you are correct to say that they are not "states of mind" either. As St. Thomas Aquinas said:

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]
​

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Well, this should be intersting then.

Spirits cannot exist in "physical" places. You do know that, right? You cannot get to heaven by swinging past Neptune and going around to the backside of Pluto or something like that. Heaven is not "over there" or "up there", and hell is not "down there". They are not "physical" places.

But you are correct to say that they are not "states of mind" either. As St. Thomas Aquinas said:

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]
​

After the Resurrection, though, wouldn't everyone exist physically? God, who is a Spirit, appears (both visibly and invisibly) in physical places as well, so spiritual entities can apparently occupy physical space, too.

 

[Forrest GOP]

After the Resurrection, though, wouldn't everyone exist physically? God, who is a Spirit, appears (both visibly and invisibly) in physical places as well, so spiritual entities can apparently occupy physical space, too.

You mean after the Last Judgement? To be honest, I have no clue and neither does anybody else. It will be wonderous, and that's really all we know. I was speaking more to the current state of those who have passed on.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I was speaking more to the current state of those who have passed on.

Well, since spiritual beings can exist in physical places, I would say that the Heaven and Hell could both be physical, even if they are occupied by the spirits of those who have gone from this world.

 

[Forrest GOP]

Well, since spiritual beings can exist in physical places, I would say that the Heaven and Hell could both be physical, even if they are occupied by the spirits of those who have gone from this world.

How do spititual beings exist in physical places when they have neither mass nor substance? That is an impossibility.

If you are going to say it is because angels have "appeared" to people in the Bible, you may be overlooking the possibility that the "appearance" was not physical but rather was a "vision" that God manifested in the mind of the person they were appearing to. That does not make it any less real of course.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

How do spititual beings exist in physical places when they have neither mass nor substance? That is an impossibility.

If you are going to say it is because angels have "appeared" to people in the Bible, you may be overlooking the possibility that the "appearance" was not physical but rather was a "vision" that God manifested in the mind of the person they were appearing to. That does not make it any less real of course.

A problem with this idea is that the Angel of the Lord wrestles with Jacob in the Book of Genesis, so that event couldn't have just been a vision. Other spiritual beings interact with people as though they were occupying physical space in other parts of the Bible (I believe, for another example from Genesis, that the Lord and two Angels eat with Abraham's family).

 

[Wanda Lee]

Forrest, I'd be interested in what you think after you've read "There Really Is A Heaven"

It is the story of a 4 year old who nearly dies. He tells of being in heaven - he describes the Holy Spirit. I'm very skeptical of near death experiences - this one is different. He shares things there is NO WAY he could have known.

 

[Forrest GOP]

Forrest, I'd be interested in what you think after you've read "There Really Is A Heaven"

It is the story of a 4 year old who nearly dies. He tells of being in heaven - he describes the Holy Spirit. I'm very skeptical of near death experiences - this one is different. He shares things there is NO WAY he could have known.

I believe there really is a heaven too. I am just saying that it is not a physical place, by which I mean a place of "matter" in a specific physical location.

 

[Wanda Lee]

I believe there really is a heaven too. I am just saying that it is not a physical place, by which I mean a place of "matter" in a specific physical location.

I still say - get the book - "There Really Is A Heaven" - and see if you still think it isn't a literal place. Also have you read Randy Alcorn's book "Heaven" - it is a great book and it is based on scripture. Can you base your belief of scripture? I believe that heaven will be very much like life here - without sin, pain, sadness. We will work, play, worship, and so forth.

 

[genestealerbroodlord]

I still say - get the book - "There Really Is A Heaven" - and see if you still think it isn't a literal place. Also have you read Randy Alcorn's book "Heaven" - it is a great book and it is based on scripture. Can you base your belief of scripture? I believe that heaven will be very much like life here - without sin, pain, sadness. We will work, play, worship, and so forth.

Hi Wanda Lee, Sorry for butting in, But could you tell me where I might find 'There really is a Heaven' please. I cant seem to find it online. The name of the auther might help. Thanks.

 

[Forrest GOP]

I still say - get the book - "There Really Is A Heaven" - and see if you still think it isn't a literal place. Also have you read Randy Alcorn's book "Heaven" - it is a great book and it is based on scripture. Can you base your belief of scripture? I believe that heaven will be very much like life here - without sin, pain, sadness. We will work, play, worship, and so forth.

Honestly: I have so much to do, and such a backlog on things I've wanted to read, that I doubt that I will ever read that book.

 

[Wanda Lee]

Hi Wanda Lee, Sorry for butting in, But could you tell me where I might find 'There really is a Heaven' please. I cant seem to find it online. The name of the auther might help. Thanks.

Here is the link at Amazon Amazon.com: there really is a heaven: Books

I purchased mine at Costco.