Wait, you are basing all of this on the margin commentary in a bible you have? Who is the commentary by? What makes them experts? On what did they base their commentary?
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It has 4003 in the margin of my old KJV. (*) So, if we estimate that Adam was about 20 - 30 years old when he was made from dust of the ground and נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים from the mouth of God וַיִּפַּ֥ח into the nostrils -- then he would have been 21 or 31 -- when was driven out of the Garden,
(*)The work done on this dating* is pretty highly regarded, even by the late Stephen Gould.**
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*The Ussher Chronology
'....We castigate Ussher for making the creation so short a mere six days, where we reckon billions for evolution. But Ussher fears that six days might seem too long in the opinion of his contemporaries, for why should God, who could do all in an instant, so spread out his work? Why was he creating so long, seeing he could have perfected all the creatures at once and in a moment? Ussher gives a list of answers, but one caught my attention both for its charm and for its incisive statement about the need for sequential order in teaching as good a rationale as one could ever devise for working out a chronology in the first place! To teach us the better to understand their workmanship; even as a man which will teach a child in the frame of a letter, will first teach him one line of the letter, and not the whole letter together.....'
** Conflict Myths: Bishop Ussher and the Date of Creation - bethinking.org
Additional Reading:
'And the Lord God created Adam from dust of the ground, and breathed upon his face the breath of lives, and it became in Adam a Discoursing Spirit.' - The Targum of Onkelos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bKa92eLkQM
Science and Genesis - N.T. Wright, John Polkinghorne, Allister McGrath
The fact that you don't like that my source is able to explain why we have polystrate trees does not make it biased. If it is biased, please feel free to point out where that bias makes it wrong. If you cannot point out where it is wrong, then agree that my source is unbiased.
Bias comes from deciding on your conclusions BEFORE examining the evidence. If you examine the evidence and let that evidence lead you to conclusions, and then get lots of other people to do it and see if it leads them to the same conclusions, then you can be fairly sure there is no significant bias in your conclusion.
But like I said, show me where my source is wrong or agree that it's accurate.
Are you suggesting that scientists cannot be swayed by a rational argument or evidence? Because it happens all the time.
Religious people, patriots, racists, et cetera, do, demonstrably, act irrationally because they believe absurdities. (e.g talking snakes, and an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent father deity, who allows his children to be exploited, tortured, starved and murdered, et cetera, et cetera) Even the most cursory examination of history shows that clearly.
I don't think you can sell that to anyone who isn't religious.
"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" -- Matthew 19:21 NIV
I would be willing to bet that you haven't done that, and the reason you haven't is because you are afraid to. I don't claim to follow him myself. I seek a better path, one informed by reason and not wishful thinking.
It means that you are going to die, and after a few decades no one will know or care that you ever lived. Once the world rang with the fame and glory of men and women no one at all today would recognize or care about if they did. Death and obscurity are the common fate of us all.
Are you disturbed? Your spelling is somewhat ... idiosyncratic.
The drugs in question are called "antipsychotics", and by altering brain chemistry they can sometimes bring delusional people to recognize their delusions for what they are.
I did not specify any particular brains. I do understand that the shoe fits many, but it seems to pinch you.
The 'Christianity is the opposite of self-importance' argument always strikes me as deceptive. I mean, the belief that you were created by a supreme being is narcissistic in itself. The belief that you will carry on living for all eternity in paradise after you die as long as you maintain your beliefs is self-interest at about the most fundamental level you can get. And then to create a big drama out of the whole belief system with a supreme being watching YOU and your every action personally and even listening to all your thoughts and wishes (prayers) is pretty much the definition of an ego trip.
The whole thing is about making you feel important; that's what it's for.
We, as a society, could be in danger. There has been a fundamental christian political movement to remove science from the public school classroom. When we let religions decide what science can and can't be taught, we run the risk of tipping into a theocracy like those seen in the Middle East. Our society will never benefit from throwing out facts that contradict religious belief.
Yes, yes, I can see it now. The fear of a nation of Christians. The horror.
Such danger.
Removing science from the classroom would be catastrophic. How would we educate chemists, engineers of all types, biologists, doctors etc.... all of which MUST believe in the TOE to be applicable????
In the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's, in Canada, evolution and creation was taught side by side as the theories they are. The student was then given the opportunity to believe the one they thought was the truth. It was not jammed down their throte that we all came from apes and if you don't believe that then you need some of Gracchus's drugs. Why does this scare the evolutionist camp so much?
And we built great things, great planes, fought a war against the genocide of the Jewish people. Great structures, and great scholars...... Wow and all coming from an education system that didn't teach just creation or just evolution. IT taught both and it thrived.
Look at the US. Removed God from the schools and now is destined to collapse under the weight of it's unbearable debt, crime, corruption and the cost of protecting itself from nations all around the globe.
The middle east is an extension of what you are trying to protect. ONE LESSON, ONE TRUTH. OUR WAY. Not..here are two beliefs, you need to decide for yourself. The middle east is "teach them and convert them and if they don't....you can kill them.
Funny thing is, after the church is gone and the tribulation begins... the west will adopt this same mantra. Follow the government mandate, take the mark, renounce Christ or DIE.
Schools teaching something other than evolution... ya, real scary!
Bingo! Give that man a seegar!Racists? hmm. And now patriotism is a flaw in character too?
Life is chemistry, and chemical reactions are spontaneous in given conditions. And even an ant or termite will die for the mound.All because they believe in absurdities? Hmm like believing in a spontainious existance of life that is unexplainable as is the existance of simpathy, empathy, love, compassion. Things that compell a "evolved being" to put itself in danger to save the life of another "random" evolved being? Contrary to the drive of survival of the fittest and the race?
Both sides may make the claim. The decision whether either is correct should be based on supporting evidence.As I have said before, both sides in this debate may claim that their opponent is mentally ill, Paranoid,Fearful,Needing to feel important, etc.
Gracchus said:"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" -- Matthew 19:21 NIV
I would be willing to bet that you haven't done that, and the reason you haven't is because you are afraid to. I don't claim to follow him myself. I seek a better path, one informed by reason and not wishful thinking.
The Bible is low grade ore and pretty much played out but there are occasional nuggets.JacksBratt said:Nice quote mine here.
Why thank you for the praise, however faint!JacksBratt said:I'm actually surprised at you, Gracchus! You are usually more competent than this.
Of course it doesn't apply to you!JacksBratt said:However the context of the story is not that all Christians should give up their possesions in order to be perfect.
The context is that this man was very wealthy, having many earthly possesions, and if he could not give up that which was dear to him, actually his god (money and earthly possesions) then he could never be perfect. He would have to give up his life's works to follow Christ.
He couldn't do it. Pride, greed, whatever. He chose his god that day.
You think you will live in some other place after you die.JacksBratt said:So, you believe that I am unaware of this. That I believe that I will live, on this earth forever? That I believe that I will somehow be imortalised by my life's works?
The fact that you write without considering what you write indicates some sort of disturbance. I happen to be a very good at spelling, but out of respect for the readers, I do use the spell checker.JacksBratt said:I fail to see how the fact that I am poor at spelling and that I stated that both creationists and evolutonists are not easily swayed fromt their believes would classify me as "disturbed".
When they go off the antipsychotics, patients do indeed fall prey to delusions.Hmm, and this would change all the Christians into non-believers with chemicals that remove the blinders from their eyes. Well, you did say sometimes.... And, what if this person is then taken off the mind altering drugs? DO they revert to their "unreal" world or stay with the mindset that you and the drugs say is truth?
I don't want crazy people voting, or sitting on juries, or teaching in schools. No sane person would.JacksBratt said:Sounds to me like control and not freedom to believe what they have the right to believe.
I never said that I would make the determination. Still, I think those who believesin talking snakes, world-wide floods, pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by-when-you-die, et cetera should have their heads examined by licensed professionals.JacksBratt said:Well, concidering you have mentioned "patriots" in the same group as "racists" and state that they act irrationally followed by the knowledge of drugs that can be used to change the mind and belief of someone that YOU determine to be delusional because they believe differently than you...
I'm not important. I just watch and witness. And I am sure that, whatever you hear, it always sounds to you exactly like you wish it to sound.JacksBratt said:Sounds to me like you are the one who may be the paranoid delusional that needs to feel important. If the shoe fits as you say.
I had already guessed that, but thanks anyway.JacksBratt said:I just need to point out that my views are much different than yours'
There are many reasons they they call that time the "dark ages": Inquisitions, holy wars, witch burnings, the "Hundred Years War", illteracy, ignorance, poverty, plague, superstition... it was moderately horrible, at least.Yes, yes, I can see it now. The fear of a nation of Christians. The horror.
Such danger.
I would not use the word "applicable". I would use "competent". But the ignorant and superstitious can survive if there aren't to many of them.Removing science from the classroom would be catastrophic. How would we educate chemists, engineers of all types, biologists, doctors etc.... all of which MUST believe in the TOE to be applicable????
Creationism is not a theory. It is not an explanation backed by evidence.In the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's, in Canada, evolution and creation was taught side by side as the theories they are.
And if they wanted to believe that 2 + 2 = 5 they should be allowed to do that, but they shouldn't be allowed to pass the first grade.The student was then given the opportunity to believe the one they thought was the truth.
Can we deduce that you are a product of that system? If so, you have scored one for our side.It was not jammed down their throte that we all came from apes and if you don't believe that then you need some of Gracchus's drugs. Why does this scare the evolutionist camp so much?
Dare we mention that Canada had a rich neighbor, with a common culture and economy, and an open border? And, aside from draft dodgers, most of the traffic has been heading south.And we built great things, great planes, fought a war against the genocide of the Jewish people. Great structures, and great scholars...... Wow and all coming from an education system that didn't teach just creation or just evolution. IT taught both and it thrived.
Yes, indeed, it is collapsing for lots of reasons. But:Look at the US. Removed God from the schools and now is destined to collapse under the weight of it's unbearable debt, crime, corruption and the cost of protecting itself from nations all around the globe.
The gun in one hand and the Bible in the other is well documented in history.The middle east is an extension of what you are trying to protect. ONE LESSON, ONE TRUTH. OUR WAY. Not..here are two beliefs, you need to decide for yourself. The middle east is "teach them and convert them and if they don't....you can kill them.
We'll see when it happens. We have already seen much the same when the Christians were running things.Funny thing is, after the church is gone and the tribulation begins... the west will adopt this same mantra. Follow the government mandate, take the mark, renounce Christ or DIE.
It is not scary to me, just sad.Schools teaching something other than evolution... ya, real scary!
If that is your view of a life following and walking with Christ, I really pity you. You've missed it.
As you're a literalist, does that mean your god requires oxygen?
[serious];66884743 said:And where in the bible is that indicated?
It's starting to feel like you are just dodging the question.
Because I have stated it before. Jesus is the second Adam and he
started his ministry at the age of 30. Received the holy ghost at
that time as well.
God breathed life into the first Adam. He had language and intelligence
from the start and was obviously of marrying age.
All logic points to Adam having the appearance of 30 years old when
he was 1 minute old.
Obviously you need to brush up on your Greek.
[serious];66885286 said:Wait, you are basing all of this on the margin commentary in a bible you have? Who is the commentary by? What makes them experts? On what did they base their commentary?
Translation:
The information you perceive from a bunch of stories written by anonymous authors.
Because I have stated it before. Jesus is the second Adam and he
started his ministry at the age of 30. Received the holy ghost at
that time as well.
God breathed life into the first Adam. He had language and intelligence
from the start and was obviously of marrying age.
All logic points to Adam having the appearance of 30 years old when
he was 1 minute old.
Where do you get this? Reading Gen 1 and 2, I see no passage that shows that Adam couldn't have been created as a baby and then lived 30 years before he got married.
Where do you get this? Reading Gen 1 and 2, I see no passage that shows that Adam couldn't have been created as a baby and then lived 30 years before he got married.
Also, assuming something because you think the symbolism and parallels with another story would be neat does not equate to logic.
That's perhaps a bit too liberal, even for my palette.
God spoke: Let us make human beings in our image, make them
reflecting our nature
God created human beings;
he created them godlike,
Reflecting Gods nature.
He created them male and female.
God formed Man out of dirt from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. The Man came alivea living soul!
God put the Man into a deep sleep. As he slept he removed one of his ribs and replaced it with flesh. God then used the rib that he had taken from the Man to make Woman and presented her to the Man.
The other point you made, is a massive study -- requiring considerable education. There are various books, but they are too technical to begin unpacking on the Creation or Evolution forum, or anywhere else for that matter.
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