Lines of Apostolic Succession

[Wisdom's Child]

I was doing some research in the area of Apostolic Succession, particularly Lines of Succession. I tried asking this question in GT but there were too many protestants arguing against Apostolic Succession in general for the OP to remain on track long enough for me to get any usable information. This is something which is bothering me in spirit, so what I really need is good reliable information.

Question, how many lines of Apostolic Succession are there really, and what makes the Line of Succession valid, and what would invalidate that Line?

How would one go about proving the Line is indeed a Valid Line?

Reason I ask is that if you do a websearch there seems to be anywhere from 6 to 32 "lines of succession" with many of them claiming to be gnostic lines. Now I feel that I can safely assume that anything gnostic can be considered invalid at least doctrinally.
But apparently a line of succession is no guarantee of doctrinal integrity.

I reciently ran across a small liturgical denomination which claims to have 8 distinct lines of Apostolic Succession. That got me investigating their claim, and so far it's a real messy task. Aparently the head of this denominational group was ordained by a group of 8 Bishops, each from a distinctly different line of Succession. Is this a common practice?

I'm asking you folks here because this group is also claiming to have Full Communion with the Lutherans, and forgive my mistrusts but I feel it to be a good idea to investigate a group thorougly before considering joining them.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

I am not sure why you're asking about this here.

With the possible exception of the Swedish State Church, Lutherans are pretty indifferent at best to the whole issue.

 

[IowaLutheran]

Lutherans, even those who have apostolic succession, view it in radically different terms than those who maintain it is "necessary" to be a true church, i.e., Catholics or Orthodox.

At the time of the Reformation, in many areas that became Lutheran, the local Catholic bishops did not follow, so many areas were left without the service of existing bishops. Because Lutherans view church order as important, but ultimately subservient to the Gospel that was being denied by the existing bishops, the fact that the lines of apostolic succession were broken at that time was not viewed as something that invalidated the new Lutheran church.

In Sweden and Finland, local Catholic bishops also converted, so the lines of apostolic succession were maintained.

In the United States, the largest Lutheran denomination, the ELCA, entered into a "full communion" agreement with the Episcopal Church which became effective in 2001, and one of the terms of the agreement was that future ELCA bishops would be installed by other bishops in the historic episcopate, usually bishops from the Episcopal church or from Lutheran churches with the historic episcopate. Much ink has been spilled in the debate over this agreement; suffice it to say it was hotly contested. Nevertheless, the ELCA does not maintain that the historic episcopate is "necessary" for the existence of a true church.

So, in a nutshell, most Lutherans world-wide could care less about lines of succession because they don't have it. Those that do have it view it as a good thing for church order, but do not base the validity of the church on their lines of succession, so even in those churches you won't find very many who are terribly worried about whether the succession lines are perfect and without any breaks.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

I think it's safe to say that Lutherans consider Apostolic confession and doctrine to be far more important that "Apostolic Succession".

 

[IowaLutheran]

I think it's safe to say that Lutherans consider Apostolic confession and doctrine to be far more important that "Apostolic Succession".

Right - the difference in views is apparent in your discussion on the GT thread.

To Wisdom's Child, I'm sorry if we are not answering the specific questions you asked, but I don't think most Lutherans would be capable of giving you coherent answers simply because it is not a matter we have historically been concerned with.

Personally, I support the ELCA's adoption of the historic episcopate for various reasons, and I know many Lutherans who vehemently disagree with me. I don't want to derail your thread with that whole discussion. My point, ultimately, is that even to someone such as myself who thinks it was a good idea to reinstate apostolic succession of bishops, we do not view the pedigree of our bishops to be the fount of their authority.

Perhaps there are some ultra-high church Lutherans out there who would disagree with me but I don't personally know of any.

 

[Wisdom's Child]

Thank you for your response.
One issue that I should explain is that I grew up in a Southern Baptist tradition, and only fairly reciently (1997) converted to Anglican Episcopal because I found that I had a taste and appreciation for the liturgical style and historical tradition. But, recient moves within the Episcopal Church involving the "homosexual issue" has once again left me searching. I since have become a non-denominational minister and followed the home church trend because of what I found within the Book of Acts and my studies of The Early Church Fathers.
My home church worship has been somewhat liturgical because I honestly feel that form best reflects what I find in my research.
Because of my background and studies I have real reservations towards following the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox paths because of certain historical and doctrinal issues.

The group that I have come across is called The Ante-Nicene Church. It was established in 2001 in a "reformation attempt" to re-establish original apostolic church. Their Head Bishop is who claims the lines of Apostolic Succession, and as I stated earlier (the reason for posting here) his organization is in "full communion" with the Lutheran Orthodox Church.
If you are curious their website is here http://www.ante-nicenechurch.org/

Because they follow in the same tradition as I have on my own, and are a home church network with ACF clergy it really peaks my interests. But as I also said before, I harbor a mistrust of organizations which I am not fully familiar with.

Once again I thank you for any info that you can provide that may assist my research.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

I posted this in the GT discussion, I don't know if you saw it:

Why would it be important to establish this "ecclesial pedigree"?

What would doing so accomplish?

Do you think it would establish which church is The True Church?

If so, why when so many churches making the claim have departed from the confession and teaching of the Apostles?

What does it matter of a church purports to maintain a line all the way back to Christ's calling of the Apostles if those who do so do not believe and teach what the Apostles believed and taught?

I think it would be better for you to examine their doctrine than their genealogy.

 

[RedneckAnglican]

unfortunately most lines of "apostolic Succession" starts getting convoluted round about the 14-1500's...mainly because of the reformation, but also because of the upheval in the Roman Church itself (for awhile there were upwards of 3 Popes if I remember my History class right)...This in its self muddys the waters...

 

[IowaLutheran]

There are various Lutheran "micro-synods" that cover a wide variety of Lutheranism, from ultra low-church pietist on one hand to ultra-high church on the other; I suspect the Lutheran Orthodox church to be a part of the latter.

I don't know enough about the churches you are asking about to give you an informed opinion. Typically their apostolic succession lines stem from renegade Roman Catholic bishops, Old Catholic bishops, or Continuing Anglican bishops.

If you don't know him already here at CF, I would highly recommend that you talk to Father Rick, who is a nice guy and a moderator here at CF. He is an Old Catholic priest in a small denomination here in the US and I think he is pretty familiar with how some of the smaller groups with apostolic succession trace their lines of authority. I think he is trying to limit his CF time during Lent but he mentioned he still lurks and responds to private messages. His background is similar to yours - I think he grew up pentecostal but believed in the importance of liturgy and apostolic succession so considered Anglicanism, but because of the liberalism of the Episcopal church, he became an Old Catholic priest. His church's website is at http://www.saintthomasmorechurch.com/staff.html

 

[symphonyb]

I'm not sure I even care about this stuff,sad isn't it? I just branched over to the Lutheran faith 2 years ago.Alot I still don't know here.

 

[LutherNut]

If you are curious their website is here http://www.ante-nicenechurch.org/

The theme song on their website in "Shine, Jesus, Shine." That alone speaks volumes!

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

I'm not sure I even care about this stuff,sad isn't it? I just branched over to the Lutheran faith 2 years ago.Alot I still don't know here.

Don't worry about it...Learn about it if you want to, don't if you don't...

It's what we call a mittelding, it's not that it's unimportant, but it's certainly not essential...