Linda from Berlin is here.

LindaBerlin · Nov 15, 2020

My name is Gerlinde, but because the name seems too heavy for Anglo-Saxon tongues, I prefer to call me Linda.
I live and work in Berlin, where I used to work as a Mormon missionary. In 1992 I left the LDS "Church" and studied divergent churches and religions, but in none I felt comfortable. Neither in my mother's religion (she was Jewish), nor in my father's religion (he was Baptist). I had even dealt with paganism (especially Wicca) and Islam.
I would describe myself as a person who believes in God, but I do not believe in God's; as they say here in Germany, "ground personnel" (this means churches and clergy).
I have a divided relationship with the Bible. For me, it is an important book, but also a book that has often been mistranslated and also misinterpreted. I also wonder how things that were perhaps right and important 3,000 years ago should still be the same, even though the world and humanity have changed?
An example is the position and task of women in antiquity and the present.

LindaBerlin · Nov 15, 2020

Rachel Harbinger said:
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. If you do not believe in him you will be cast into the lake of fire forever.

As I said at the beginning, Rachel, I believe in God (so also in Jesus), but not in a church/religion.
I am a seeker of religion/church that feels "right/good" to me.

dzheremi · Nov 15, 2020

Hi LindaBerlin! Welcome to CF. I hope you find your time here helpful in your search.

From your biography, it sounds like you've been many, many spiritual places! It is understandable, then, how maybe you have yet to find the right one. I don't think it's really appropriate to tell people where they should be (if I had listened to such talk when I was still a seeker, I would not have become Orthodox), but I would only encourage you to keep seeking. Whether you feel that you believe in a particular church or religion or not, the search for God is never a fruitless one, as there is practically no search in existence that could be more important than this one.

LindaBerlin · Nov 15, 2020

Rachel Harbinger said:
So do you consider yourself a born again Christian?

No, but rather as a believer who has not yet been able to join any church/religion, because all these churches/religions teach something wrong in my eyes, or have not understood the Savior's important message; because they replace love with hatred and prejudice, and take out biblical quotations without heeding the historical and textual context.

LindaBerlin · Nov 15, 2020

dzheremi said:
Hi LindaBerlin! Welcome to CF. I hope you find your time here helpful in your search.

From your biography, it sounds like you've been many, many spiritual places! It is understandable, then, how maybe you have yet to find the right one. I don't think it's really appropriate to tell people where they should be (if I had listened to such talk when I was still a seeker, I would not have become Orthodox), but I would only encourage you to keep seeking. Whether you feel that you believe in a particular church or religion or not, the search for God is never a fruitless one, as there is practically no search in existence that could be more important than this one.

For me, an Orthodox faith (mother comes from an Orthodox rabbi family) is more of an obstacle, because the rules prevent you from being yourself.
Why cook kosher when the conditions of food storage have changed? Why should women in the synagogue be away from men in a gallery, and not be a rabbi?
Especially in Orthodox religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, women are oppressed, cannot develop in their faith.

LindaBerlin · Nov 15, 2020

Rachel Harbinger said:
Sounds like you are pretty judgmental of the Church which is the bride of Christ.

Rachel, I am a human being, like all of us. And like everyone, I also have needs for community, belonging and acceptance.
I judge a church/religion according to three fundamental standards, all of which I have more or less taken from the Bible. These are:

1. How does a church/religion protect minorities outside and within its own group?
2. To what extent does this Church/Religion represent the message of UNCONDITIONAL charity?
3. Do these churches/religions pick quotations taken out of context from their sacred books (Bible, Koran, Torah) to take these quotations against others as a weapon or justification?

So far, unfortunately, I have found that all churches and religions did not meet at least one of these points. Just one example:

In my time of searching, I visited a Christian free church. I was warmly received. After the divine service, I spoke to the pastor's wife. First about children and life in Germany (she is American), then about the divine service. She asked me if I also thought that women in the Church should remain silent, as Paul said (that was the subject of the sermon). I replied that Bible scholars wanted to find out that this quotation was not supposed to be of Paul, but was inserted only 150 years later. And that I think this theory is possible. She then became angry and accused me of being an atheist, communist and satanist. When I started laughing out loud because I found her accusation ridiculous, she said I was "obsessed with demons." Laughing, I left the church.
There is not only one reading of the Bible. There are many readings, just as there are many different translations. And so one can be a believer and have a different opinion.

LindaBerlin · Nov 15, 2020

Rachel Harbinger said:
The Bible specifically forbids women to be Pastors. Women are to remain silent in church.

Biblical scholars such as Norbert Grainacher from the University of Tübingen, who has since retired, have written several books in German.
Thus he proved that the office of deacon was carried out until the 6th century by women, that women founded and led house churches, and that there were also women as apostles. He called the Apostle ministry divided into the "inner" and "outer" circle around Jesus.
The 12 Apostles, who are known to all, belonged to the inner circle. The outer circle also included women such as Mary Magdalene and Junia, which is mentioned in the Letter to the Romans. Speaking of Junia:

The Apostle Junia

I quote:

Both Junia and Julia were very common ancient Greek woman's names, whereas the masculine alternatives suggested by modern commentators have no manuscript evidence to support them. "Junius" and "Junianus" suggested by some, are perfectly good Roman man's names. However, they occur in NO ancient manuscript of Romans 16:7! Of the hypothetical name "Junias," Bernadette Brooten writes, "What can a modern philologist say about Junias? Just this: it is unattested. To date, not a single reference in ancient literature has been cited by any of the proponents of the Junias hypothesis. My own search for an attestation has also proved fruitless. This means that we do not have a single shred of evidence that the name Junias ever existed."3 Note that Brooten is not only speaking of the lack of this name in NT manuscripts, but in ANY ancient manuscript, Greek or Latin, secular or sacred!
Certain early manuscripts do contain a variant name, but it, too, is feminine. "Julia" is found in P46, it, cop, eth, and Ambrosiaster. P46, a papyrus manuscript dating about 200 AD, is one of the most ancient and reliable Greek mss of the NT extant. In Romans 16:7, P46 reads "Julia," which can only be feminine. What does this mean? That in Romans 16, St. Paul commends a noteworthy woman apostle. It also means that translators who found a woman apostle unacceptable made up the name "Junias" to substitute their own word for the Word of God. That is how important limiting women's freedom has been to religious legalists. We will find that this attitude and practice have been all too common.
What does the Bible say? Paul calls Junia his kinsman and fellow prisoner. Like Paul, she had suffered persecution and imprisonment for the Gospel. Evidently, her ministry and faith were known even outside the church. Sometimes we forget what early Christians under the iron fist of pagan Rome had to suffer to proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. For Junia and Andronicus (perhaps her husband), being an apostle wasn't a matter of privilege, but prison. (...)
Paul calls himself "the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church" but calls Junia "outstanding among the apostles." It would be wonderful to know more about Junia, Andronicus and the founding of the church at Rome, but this seminal body of believers was largely wiped out during the persecutions of Nero, and their history died with them.
What do we know about the apostles? According to the New Testament, apostles are given by God,6 workers of miracles,6 witnesses who proclaimed Christ's resurrection,7 founders and leaders of churches,8 preachers,9 teachers,10 disciplers, 11 and financial managers of the church.12 While not every apostle was necessarily involved in all these ministries, there is no reason to think that a recognized apostle such as Junia was barred from any of them. Unlike many churches today, 1st century believers honored the women ministers God gave them. Those who would diminish Junia's contribution should remember that Paul does not refer to her as a lesser apostle, but on the contrary praises her as outstanding among the apostles. She was so outstanding an apostle that the pagan and Jewish persecutors of Christians saw her as dangerous and imprisoned her to prevent her from continuing her apostolic mission - unsuccessfully, it seems, for she and Andronicus had been released and were bravely continuing to minister in the church at Rome when Paul sent his epistle there. [/Qoute]

LindaBerlin · Nov 15, 2020

Finally, I would like to say that it is not the Bible itself that I have problems with, but how some Christians understand and interpret it, without taking into account the historical, textual or linguistic context.

Carl Emerson · Nov 15, 2020

Hi Linda,

Welcome to CF...

I think your analysis of religious systems will probably never end.

The more important matter is to personally collide with Truth.

The mind is the wrong tool in that endeavour as encounter with the creator is via the Spirit.

Mental humility and intelligence are a rare combination but are essential in the journey.

Adopting a child like faith with an open heart is essential.

Have you pondered on why Jesus knowingly chose to be hideously executed - what did that really achieve?

I trust your stay here will be fruitful.

sunshineforJesus · Nov 15, 2020

Hi and welcome here.

tturt · Nov 15, 2020

Joining others in welcoming you to CF Hope you find your times here rewarding.

Yusuphhai · Nov 16, 2020

Hallo! Linda Berlin .maybe you can find a littte Hinweis in Messianic Judaism Section.

kingsdaughter85 · Nov 16, 2020

Welcome Linda and God bless you❤️

dqhall · Nov 16, 2020

LindaBerlin said:
Finally, I would like to say that it is not the Bible itself that I have problems with, but how some Christians understand and interpret it, without taking into account the historical, textual or linguistic context.

Welcome to CF.

Part of the Bible is stories, part is fact. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. If you are an honest person you will stay with the truth. Men and women have more opportunities today than during the days of the Roman empire when many myths were the status quo. After Constantine gained power Christians outlawed gladiator fights to the death. Christians outlawed animal sacrificial religion. More recently Christians outlawed slavery and did many other wonderful things.

Andrewn · Nov 16, 2020

Welcome to the CF. Hope you enjoy the fellowship and discussions.

d taylor · Nov 16, 2020

LindaBerlin said:
No, but rather as a believer who has not yet been able to join any church/religion, because all these churches/religions teach something wrong in my eyes, or have not understood the Savior's important message; because they replace love with hatred and prejudice, and take out biblical quotations without heeding the historical and textual context.

If you believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh and have trusted in The Messiah for Gods free gift of Eternal Life.

Then you are born again and are a child of God.

LindaBerlin · Nov 16, 2020

d taylor said:
If you believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh and have trusted in The Messiah for Gods free gift of Eternal Life.

Then you are born again and are a child of God.

The main problem is that there were many in Judaism as well as in non-Jewish groups who claimed to be the Messiah. And some of them also had some of the prophecies of the Bible.
In Germany, there is a saying that says: "What does not fit will be made fit!" And so men have amade of pieces of the Bible; often mistranslated, summed up that Jesus is the Messiah.
It may be that he is, I don't know; but it may also be that he is not. Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, who will probably never come.

Yusuphhai said:
Hallo! Linda Berlin .maybe you can find a littte Hinweis in Messianic Judaism Section.

I think liberal Judaism would probably be more in line with my need, because women can be rabbis there, and they are not second-class members. They are also tolerant of minorities such as homosexuals and transgender people.

LindaBerlin · Nov 16, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Hi Linda,

Welcome to CF...

I think your analysis of religious systems will probably never end. The more important matter is to personally collide with Truth.
The mind is the wrong tool in that endeavour as encounter with the creator is via the Spirit.
Mental humility and intelligence are a rare combination but are essential in the journey.
Adopting a child like faith with an open heart is essential.
Have you pondered on why Jesus knowingly chose to be hideously executed - what did that really achieve?
I trust your stay here will be fruitful.

I see something different. God gave me the mind to use it. Paul once said that everything should be checked and the best kept.
Children believe everything at a certain age (Santa, Easter Bunny, Harry Potter), but the older they get, the more knowledge they get, they see that Harry Potter can't fly on a broom, Santa can't get through the fireplace, and the Easter Bunny doesn't lay eggs. Why? Because they use their mind and knowledge.
I was with the Mormons as a child. I believed every crap they told me. Then I was older, saw the discrepancy between Mormon history and doctrines on the one hand, and their attempts at cover-up on the other. I asked questions that no one could or wanted to answer. Instead, I was threatened with excommunication if I continued to ask these questions. Fearing losing family and friends, I remained silent. But my questions remained hidden in me.
I got older, got married, i had children. Then I read in the Bible something in a letter from Paul that, from the Mormon point of view, the baptism of the dead (Mormons baptize themselves in their temples for the dead), and I realized, after I had consulted my ancient Greek dictionary, that Paul had never approved of the baptism of the dead. And I understood that the teaching of Mormons is on sandy feet.
I made it public in the Church, and was excommunicated in 1992 for "apostasy."
I cannot believe everything like a child, because my experiences with Mormons and other churches and religions have shown me that this happens everywhere.
That is why I rely on my knowledge and my mind. And I've done well so far.

Albion · Nov 16, 2020

Hi, Linda. I, too, went through a period in which I thought that I simply had to stop denying myself and that I had to go with a faith that I personally found appealing. I even wrote up my own creed. In time, I realized that doing this amounted to settling on nothing of lasting value.

It's not that my preferences weren't important to me, but truth, the essential ingredient in any religion, is whatever it is, not what I would like it to be.

Now people get upset with me for following the Bible instead of social trends, but I feel better about not second-guessing God anymore.

Carl Emerson · Nov 16, 2020

LindaBerlin said:
I see something different. God gave me the mind to use it. Paul once said that everything should be checked and the best kept.
Children believe everything at a certain age (Santa, Easter Bunny, Harry Potter), but the older they get, the more knowledge they get, they see that Harry Potter can't fly on a broom, Santa can't get through the fireplace, and the Easter Bunny doesn't lay eggs. Why? Because they use their mind and knowledge.
I was with the Mormons as a child. I believed every crap they told me. Then I was older, saw the discrepancy between Mormon history and doctrines on the one hand, and their attempts at cover-up on the other. I asked questions that no one could or wanted to answer. Instead, I was threatened with excommunication if I continued to ask these questions. Fearing losing family and friends, I remained silent. But my questions remained hidden in me.
I got older, got married, i had children. Then I read in the Bible something in a letter from Paul that, from the Mormon point of view, the baptism of the dead (Mormons baptize themselves in their temples for the dead), and I realized, after I had consulted my ancient Greek dictionary, that Paul had never approved of the baptism of the dead. And I understood that the teaching of Mormons is on sandy feet.
I made it public in the Church, and was excommunicated in 1992 for "apostasy."
I cannot believe everything like a child, because my experiences with Mormons and other churches and religions have shown me that this happens everywhere.
That is why I rely on my knowledge and my mind. And I've done well so far.

Hey, I agree with this but that is not what I was talking about...

You did well to examine and find wanting.

In finding what was wrong you did well.

But I was referring to a much deeper issue in your search for truth.

Fundamentally the search for truth is spiritual rather than mental.

In that sense the mind is the wrong tool for the job.

That is why I asked you "Have you pondered on why Jesus knowingly chose to be hideously executed - what did that really achieve?"

Folks can be immersed in 'Christianity' all their lives and not have a collision with Truth. Paul's conversion is an excellent example - Zealous in mind but denying the nudging of the Spirit within.

Linda from Berlin is here.

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