Let's try this again

laconicstudent · Jun 1, 2010

The irony of this argument:

If we concede that we can determine that "worship" can be determined by external actions,

We concede that what is being done with icons and statues is indeed, "worship",

We can conclude that contemporary worship practiced by most Protestants is not "worship", since it does not follow the externals they themselves specify as "worship".

Therefore, while Catholics and Orthodox may worship images, Protestants/non-denominational/whatever don't worship God at all.

Just a thought.

narnia59 · Jun 1, 2010

laconicstudent said:
The irony of this argument:

If we concede that we can determine that "worship" can be determined by external actions,

We concede that what is being done with icons and statues is indeed, "worship",

We can conclude that contemporary worship practiced by most Protestants is not "worship", since it does not follow the externals they themselves specify as "worship".

Therefore, while Catholics and Orthodox may worship images, Protestants/non-denominational/whatever don't worship God at all.

Just a thought.

Good thought.

Christos Anesti · Jun 1, 2010

[*]Just making an image or statue isn't wrong. Look at this image. That isn't idolatry.
[*]Just the act of bowing down isn't idolatry either. Read 2 Samuel 9:6. Mephibosheth came and bowed down before the beloved king. It was a sign that he was the servant of David. The isn't idolatry either.
[*]So just making images or statues isn't idolatry. The single act of bowing down isn't idolatry either. But what if we combine the two? Bowing down to images or statues is idolatry.
[*]

Click to expand...

In that case the picture of the Catholic in front of the Virigin Mary statue wouldn't be idolatry either. As you noted it's not idolatry to bow down to a person as shown in the Bible reference you posted. As the 7th Ecumenical Council noted the veneration is passed on to the prototype of the Icon :

Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honor (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature, ... which is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands."

As St John Damascene noted :

…and to these should be given due salutation and honorable reverence [proskynesis], not indeed that true worship of faith (latreia) which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figures of the life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels…incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honor which is paid to the images passes on to that which the image represents

This is the official teaching of both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches (as well as the Protestant Churches that accept the 7th Ecumenical council). Certainly one could say "yeah but your not 'really' giving honor the prototype you are just giving honor to a piece of wood" but that would imply that you have knowledge of what we are actually doing in our hearts when we act in this manner and that we are purposely contradicting the teachings of our Churches.

shinbits · Jun 1, 2010

Christos Anesti said:
I posted this on the last thread but no one responded to my question.

Was this a case of God telling people to make an Idol? Note that it includes an image of two Cherubim and was carried and treated with reverence.

Were those Cheribum prayed to? Were those Cheribum ever called "Kings of Heaven", the way Mary's refered to as "Queen of Heaven"? Has anyone ever bowed down these images the way people bow down to images of Mary?

The answer to all of these is no.

And concerning this pic:

No one in the Bible is ever recorded doing this, so this pic is just a lie. Furthermore, angels refused worship:

Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:9,10)

So if it's not okay to worship angels, it's definately not okay to bow down to images of them. So this pic is just some utterly false representation of how the Ark of the Covenant was actually treated.

laconicstudent · Jun 1, 2010

shinbits said:
Has anyone ever bowed down these images the way people bow down to images of Mary?

The answer to all of these is no.

Of course, there is no way you could prove that.

shinbits said:
And concerning this pic:

No one in the Bible is ever recorded doing this, so this pic is just a lie.

1 Samuel 5 for teh lulz.

shinbits said:
Furthermore, angels refused worship:
Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:9,10)

What does that have to do with anything?

shinbits said:
So if it's not okay to worship angels, it's definately not okay to bow down to images of them.

What a strange logical leap. Kind of like: "It isn't ok to murder children, therefore it is also wrong to spank them when they misbehave."

shinbits said:
So this pic is just some utterly false representation of how the Ark of the Covenant was actually treated.

I'd love to see some sources.

shinbits · Jun 1, 2010

narnia59 said:
In your view, is the Protestant woman in this photo clearly disobeying God? While you can't see it in the picture, she and a group of woman evidently have gathered around an American flag to pray.

Kneeling down to lift nation up: National Day of Prayer celebrated on Fort McPherson

The woman isn't praying to a flag, nor does she regard the flag as any kind of being or entity that can respond to prayer.

How about this one:

Free, Public Domain Image: American Soldiers Paying Their Respects To Fallen Soldiers Stock Photography - Acclaim Stock Photography

These guys aren't praying to dead soldiers, unlike Catholics who pray to people who have died.

Honestly, we don't know what the soldiers in the pic are thinking; but, we DO know that how many Catholics feel about Mary, and what Catholics have written about Mary. So when we see them kneeling and praying to Mary, it's incomparable to seeing men kneel before their fallen comrades, and assume it's merely out of respect, and NOT because they believe the soldiers have some godlike status.

I can't find the one I used to have of people kneeling to pray at the ten commandments monument that was being removed in Alabama. Ironic isn't it? A graven image of the ten commandments, and there were people bowing down to it in prayer.

I'm sure you see all of these examples to be just as clearly against the Bible, correct?

If they are bowing TO the image of the Ten Commandments, rather than bowing to God in prayer and simply being next to the image, then it's a sin.

shinbits · Jun 1, 2010

narnia59 said:
Don't forget the bronze serpent Moses constructed in the desert to lift up before the people, whereby they could gaze on it and be healed. Per God's instruction I believe -- construct this graven image and use for their healing, of course as a shadow of the ultimate source of healing -- Christ on the cross.

Of course, later instead of using it as instructed and for the purpose God intended, they began to actually worship it, and it had to be destroyed.

But it would seem a clear example of a graven image being used for both the glory of God and an idol. A graven image in the form of a serpent used to point to Christ and healing. An idol worshipped as a false god. All in the same image. One would think people could understand that intent plays a role in what the 'difference' is.

EXACTLY.

shinbits · Jun 1, 2010

laconicstudent said:
That man is worshiping Queen Elizabeth II.

As mentioned before, it's the intent. If this man sees the Queen as some sort of Divine figure (like how Catholics see Mary), then he's sinning.

lionroar0 · Jun 1, 2010

shinbits said:
As mentioned before, it's the intent. If this man sees the Queen as some sort of Divine figure (like how Catholics see Mary), then he's sinning.

Just because u see Catholics as making Mary divine does not make it so.

narnia59 · Jun 1, 2010

shinbits said:
The woman isn't praying to a flag, nor does she regard the flag as any kind of being or entity that can respond to prayer.

These guys aren't praying to dead soldiers, unlike Catholics who pray to people who have died.

Honestly, we don't know what the soldiers in the pic are thinking; but, we DO know that how many Catholics feel about Mary, and what Catholics have written about Mary. So when we see them kneeling and praying to Mary, it's incomparable to seeing men kneel before their fallen comrades, and assume it's merely out of respect, and NOT because they believe the soldiers have some godlike status.

If they are bowing TO the image of the Ten Commandments, rather than bowing to God in prayer and simply being next to the image, then it's a sin.

So let me summarize here:

1) You say "The woman isn't praying to a flag, nor does she regard the flag as any kind of being or entity that can respond to prayer" with all certainty of her intent, but cannot fathom that Catholics do not regard the statue as being an entity that can actual respond to prayer anymore than this woman thinks that of the flag. Perhaps your insight is a little 'biased and limited'?

2) Are they kneeling and praying to Mary or to the statue? Which is it you deduce is going on? Because if it's Mary and not the statue (which is only an image representing her like the dead solider's grave represents him), then we're no longer talking about the 'graven image' and idol issue, are we? A totally different topic -- the role of the communion of saints.

3) So you're certain it's possible for some to bow to God in the presence of an image, but not Catholics? When it's a Catholic you automatically know it's the image that is being 'bowed down to' and therefore in violation of the commandment, but it's possible for someone else to merely be bowing to God in the presence of an image that has some symbolic meaning? Have I got that right?

narnia59 · Jun 1, 2010

narnia59 · Jun 1, 2010

shinbits said:
EXACTLY.

"Exactly" right. It is all about the "intent". So you have determined in your own mind that you know the "intent" of the people in these pictures, ignore the fact that people who practice such devotion explain to you that your understanding of the "intent is in error, and proceed merrily along with accusations. It's a pretty easy game to play when you make up all the rules, control the minds of all the people playing, and judge the outcome. A game limited to the confines of your own mind of course, but an easy one to play nonetheless.

lionroar0 · Jun 1, 2010

seashale76 said:
I can't believe the OP actually went to jesus-is-savior.com to copy and paste her pictures. It qualifies as a 'make it up if you don't actually know the facts' type of source. You lose serious cred with people if you're attempting to be serious.

The lay out of that web page is horrible. Looks like it was done by a second grader.

narnia59 · Jun 1, 2010

Originally Posted by shinbits

As mentioned before, it's the intent. If this man sees the Queen as some sort of Divine figure (like how Catholics see Mary), then he's sinning.

lionroar0 said:
Just because u see Catholics as making Mary divine does not make it so.

Making a proclamation that Mary is divine is actually a pretty good way to get excommunicated. Ask those nuns in Arkansas a few years back.

Of course, one has to actually understand what it means to be divine, and to worship. Not quite sure people have a grasp on that.

lionroar0 · Jun 1, 2010

narnia59 said:
Originally Posted by shinbits

As mentioned before, it's the intent. If this man sees the Queen as some sort of Divine figure (like how Catholics see Mary), then he's sinning.

Making a proclamation that Mary is divine is actually a pretty good way to get excommunicated. Ask those nuns in Arkansas a few years back.

Of course, one has to actually understand what it means to be divine, and to worship. Not quite sure people have a grasp on that.

I think it's just a logical progression. When one takes away the grace of the sacrament from worship. Not only that but take away the Scriptural way of worship as it is done in Revelations. One is left with a limited understanding and way to worship.

narnia59 · Jun 1, 2010

lionroar0 said:
The lay out of that web page is horrible. Looks like it was done by a second grader.

Not as bad as the content. I am amazed at those who have no hesitation to use his material. If you read along, you discover that his advice to women who are being physically abused by their husbands is that they have no grounds to leave them, and what's even better -- it's your fault for making him angry. If you were an obedient wife the way you should be, you wouldn't have these problems. You're driving him to do this you know -- it's your fault.

I don't think there's a little pukey emoticon or I'd use it.

laconicstudent · Jun 1, 2010

So basically, in summary, Shinbits thinks he knows the intents and perceptions of Roman Catholics better then Roman Catholics themselves?

narnia59 · Jun 1, 2010

laconicstudent said:
So basically, in summary, Shinbits thinks he knows the intents and perceptions of Roman Catholics better then Roman Catholics themselves?

Pretty well sums it up for me.

What the heck -- I got used to people telling me what I think when I had teenagers around.

lionroar0 · Jun 1, 2010

narnia59 said:
Pretty well sums it up for me.

What the heck -- I got used to people telling me what I think when I had teenagers around.

Wouldn't expect any less. As they know everything.

shinbits · Jun 1, 2010

narnia59 said:
So let me summarize here:

1) You say "The woman isn't praying to a flag, nor does she regard the flag as any kind of being or entity that can respond to prayer" with all certainty of her intent, but cannot fathom that Catholics do not regard the statue as being an entity that can actual respond to prayer anymore than this woman thinks that of the flag. Perhaps your insight is a little 'biased and limited'?

Who do you know that prays to a flag? I don't know of anyone. However, I know of millions (maybe billions) of people who pray to Mary. So assuming she's praying to a flag at this point, is rediculous.

2) Are they kneeling and praying to Mary or to the statue? Which is it you deduce is going on? Because if it's Mary and not the statue (which is only an image representing her like the dead solider's grave represents him), then we're no longer talking about the 'graven image' and idol issue, are we? A totally different topic -- the role of the communion of saints.

In the Bible, statues and images were used to represent false gods. It wasn't always that people thought the wood or stone itself was a god, but worshipped the stone (or used the stone) as an indirect worship of the god. Take the Ashera poles in the book of Kings, for examples. There are many others.

The Catholics in these pics are doing the same.

3) So you're certain it's possible for some to bow to God in the presence of an image, but not Catholics? When it's a Catholic you automatically know it's the image that is being 'bowed down to' and therefore in violation of the commandment, but it's possible for someone else to merely be bowing to God in the presence of an image that has some symbolic meaning? Have I got that right?

We KNOW that Catholics all over the world bow down TO statues of Mary, not just bow down while Mary statues just "happen" to be around. Sure, a FEW Catholics might not; but it's well known that many Catholics do bow down, SPECIFICALLY to statues of Mary.

Let's try this again

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