Let's try it this way-SDAs & Sunrise Services

Hello once again to all who have posted here as well as to those who have/will read this thread.

Before I get into the points I would like to offer for your consideration, I would first like to address a coulpe of responses made to some of my previous post.

Quote: Originally Posted by thecountrydoc

Hi Sophia7,

I realize that your last post was directed to Truthmagnet but I would like to ask you a question. Which do you belive originated first? Was it The God of heaven and creation? Or was it paganisim? Only the original can be counerfited.

If your answer is the God of creation, then you would do well to grasp correct concepts of Him. The genuine must be well studied before the counterfit can be detected. For example; By studying the $100 dollar bill first, the errors and mistakes of the counterfit will seen by those who are looking to tell which is which. It would do no good to study the counterfit first because the standard would not have been established.

The Creator God has no reason to counterfit the countrfit. Satan on the other hand has tried to find counterfits for everything that is of God since his fall from grace in heaven. It is Satan's desire to rob us of our salvation in any way that he can.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

"Doc, I hope you understand that I do not believe that the Bible has pagan origins. I mentioned what pagans say about Christianity in order to show that we can't just accept at face value what someone says about the origin of something.

You are still making the assumption, however, that if two things share some similarities, one must be a counterfeit of the other or be derived from the other.

You are also making the assumption that if pagans follow certain practices or use certain natural objects (things that God created) in their worship, that automatically renders these things evil and off-limits for Christians to use for different purposes, with no pagan connotations."

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No Sophia7, I really did not think that you thought the Bible had pagan origins. Rather I ask the question so that you would stop and think about not only the origin of the Bible, but also about the inspirition of the Bible. If we are to accept the Scriptures as the inspired Word of God, then we must also accept who Satan is and his desire to be like God. The conflict between Christ and Satan really comes down to who is to be worshiped. In addition we must accept the account of creation, the fall of Adam and Eve, the death and degration that followed, and how it resulted in the flood, the turning away from God by Noah's decendents and their return to paganism as evidenced by the building of the tower of Bable.

When we combine the forgoing information from the Bible with archeology and then follow the evidence right down to modern times, we begin to get a pretty clear picture of how and why paganism came into existance and there is very little left to assumption. It was, and is, Satan's method of putting a counterfit form of worship over God's genuine form of worship. I will address this further a little later on.

Doc wrote questioning RC_Newprotestants:

Quote:"So now I must the question; Is your knowledge of the Sabbath intelectual or theological?"

Your Response RC_N.P.:

"It is both, I can't even fathom why anyone would want to seperate the two concepts. But what can I expect you asserted you know the influences upon everyone who ever relayed information to you."

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I ask the above question because there are many who accept the Sabbath from an intelectual and historical position but do not accept it as a theological necssity for following Christ, and the theological concepts presented in the Scriptures.

I thank you for your answer as given in the first sentence of your reply. However your second sentence is unwarrented. I guess you might say that I'm from the old school. I have never accepted any teacher, or teaching on any subject at face value. If the idea being taught will not standup under logic and evidence, then the poatulation is rejected. If this approach is taken when any subject is studied, you will not only learn the subject well, but you will also find out a great deal about the instructor.

There is one more comment that needs to be made before going futher. OntheDL has given very good information from the SoP on Christmas. Many of those same statements also apply to Easter with one very great exception. That exception is the following of the very same dates, times, and object(the rising sun) as was/is used by the pagans. I trust each will draw the correct conclusions from what is presented.

I must say that this thread has wandered greatly from what the original post would seem to have indicated that the topic is, or should be. I’m going attempt to get the topic of this thread back on track and to address what would appear to have been the intent of the thread starter (Truthmagnet). I should also say that it is not, nor has it been, my intention to attempt prove any given point. What I will attempt do is cover, or recover, the historical origins of both Easter as well as historical facts that were also used to change the seventh-day Sabbath observance to the observance of the first-day, Sunday, by Roman Christians. Since there seems to be some disagreement concerning the actual origin of Easter, I would ask the reader go to page #7 of the Thread/Topics Index and read the post titled "Baptized Paganism." That threadwill give you a complete history of Easter so I will not re-enter that information here. I will also attempt to state some biblical concepts, from which we may draw biblical principles. And from those principals we may apply them to this subject.

The original post in this thread by truthmagnet:

"last sabbath there was a flyer in our bulletin that advertised an easter sunrise service with special music provided by our local church! the ad said worship music was provided by some local band, special music provided by the seventh day adventist church and the message by some pastor from a non-denominational church. it's going to be held out on the edge of a famous gorge here in colorado at 6:30am. my husband and i are appauled and dumfounded. we have only lived in this area for 6 months. we've never attended a church that participated in such paganism."

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From the foregoing, post/thread starter, it would seem to me that the real topic at hand was/is the promotion by an official SDA congregation, it’s members as a group, and [what one would take to be an ordained SDA minister], of what amounts to participation in an ongoing pagan tradition. I say ongoing because the original celebration started shortly after the flood, and the same method of fixing a date for that observance as well as the time of day is still used today.

While it is true that the pronounced reason for this festival time today is for the observance of Christ resurrection, it should be remembered how, and why, the combining of an ancient pagan festival with Christian worship took place.

The "christianizing" of Easter took place originally for socioeconomic and political reasons, not for any sacred purpose. It was simply a way for the Roman Emperor to attempt to placate both Christian and pagan in order to solidify his political power base. The same is true of the observance of Sunday in place of the seventh-day Sabbath. By combining the Christian’s observance of the seventh-day Sabbath with the first-day Sunday sun worship practiced by the pagans, it not only served the above noted reason, but it also eliminated the possibility of the population taking two days off per week for worship, thereby assuring more income via taxation for the government, and full production by the empire's workforce.

There is one other popular belief that is untrue that should be noted, and that is; Who proclaimed Christianity to be the official state religion of Rome; and when did it take place? This proclamation is most often credited to Constantine in the year A.D. 324, and thereby gave Christians the right to exist. In reality, it wasn’t Constantine at all, but Galerius, who as senior Emperor of the Tetrarchy, in April of 311, that ended the ‘Great Persecution’ of Christians with his ‘edict of toleration’, granting Christians the right to practice their religion, but not restoring seized property to them.

Constantine, together with his co-emperor, Licinius, in 313, issued the Edict of Milan, granting toleration of Christianity, removing penalties for Christians, and restoring seized church property. However, it did not make paganism illegal, nor did it make Christianity the state religion. That did not happen for another 77 years. (See quote below from Wikipedia.)

Quote: "Catholic Christianity, as opposed to Arianism and other heretical schismatic groups, became the official state religion of the Roman empire on Feb. 27, 380 through an edict issued by Emperor Theodosius I in Thessalonica and published in Constantinople. All cults save Christianity were prohibited in 391 by another edict of Theodosius I."

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I point all of this out in order to put the entire question of Easter, and it’s observance on Sunday, into proper full historical context.

It should also be noted that I have said in previous post, as well other contributors to this thread have said, that no opportunity, including Easter, should be missed to witness for Christ. Witnessing for Christ however does not, nor should not, include the participation in a service that is so directly tied to a pagan practice. (Gathering together to worship at the same time and on the same day as the pagans did to worship the sun god.)

It would seem that we can safely say that the first great concept that should be grasp is God's place in the universe as the creator. Next, that He, and only He, is worthy of our worship. The ultimate conflict between God and Satan was/is about our allegiance and worship. With these concepts firmly in our grasp, we can now see the biblical princpials that Satan wants to destroy.

He does not want us to worship our creator. He wants our allegiance instead of our giving it to God. To make it easier for us to do these things, he has offered a counterfit, a duplicate form of worship that is just as subtil in it's decit as was the serpent in the Garden of Eaden.

We on the other hand should do exactly as Jesus did when tempted; We should say "...get thee behind me Satan, for it is written..."

It is my prayer that each will see the correlation between when, where, and how we should worship the Lord Jesus Christ our Redeemer, and give thanks for His resurection and His grace that saves us from all unrightousness.

May God put Hisloving arms around you, the Holy Angels protect you, and the Holy Spitit guide and comfort you as we travel salvations highway to our heavenly home.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Here is a question for you doc? What is the first written account of a god? Now there may have been oral accounts but we don't know what they were until someone wrote them down. Do you actually believe that the historical and archaeological evidence is that the God of the Jews is the first presentation of a god. You stated: Which do you belive originated first? Was it The God of heaven and creation? Or was it paganisim?
The point here is that your belief of which occurred first is really irrelevant it is no more important then the belief that Easter means Ishtar, beliefs need to be based upon some evidence. The problem for most Christians is that they take the Genesis account as if it was actually written at the time of the events instead of thousands of years later. So those events are believed to have been actual history rather then stories meant to lay the foundation for the national identity of the nation of Israel. You of course can believe that or believe all the mythology about Nimrod but your belief does not make it so.

Doc said:
If we are to accept the Scriptures as the inspired Word of God
by the way I posted a thread on the definition of the word of God
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33743763&postcount=1
and I notice that you did not answer, as did none of the TSDA's which I find interesting. It is kind of typical of the understanding of many Christians who only have circular reasoning for their beliefs. The Bible is the word of God because the word of God is the holy scriptures. At least when you ask them the definition of the Bible they are able to define the various books that make up the Bible, ask them what the word of God is and the silence is deafening.

I do have a theory, they don't want to admit that the word of God are messages from God to man but they are time and place and context specific. The messages of God to ancient Israel is not the same message that God wants to give 21st century people. And admitting that simple fact destroys the whole fundamentalist concepts about God and the Bible.

truthmagnet said:

Thank you DL for the contribution. Unfortunately, I have heard many people twist and turn what SOP says to their own liking. If they were to read it again, they would see that what they are actually expending most of their time and money and energy on has more to do with what the world does than what SOP suggests for us here. I do appreciate you taking the time to post this here though. I think it's very important that we re-evaluate what we are actually doing or pretending we are doing versus what we should be doing.

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Hi,

Humans have tendency and weakness to compromise and go with flow. On Christmas, some well meaning people will give gifts to our 4 year old daughter. We feel obeligated to give some gifts to their children. And we always tried to make them somewhat related to Christ: bibles, books... in addition to maybe some cloths. I guess that's what Ellen White's writings meant to say.

My friend never responded to my e-mail. I've seen her a few times since I sent it and apparently it's just going to be swept under the rug. I gave her food for thought though.

My husband and I were both baptized on December 25th. The year we were baptized it just happened to fall on a Sabbath. I thought it was so wonderful to celebrate Christ's birth in the Biblical way on the same day so many people have commercialized. It was a very special day for sure.

Hello once again RC_N.P.,

I must say that it would seem that either you don't accept the biblical concepts of God and the atributes accredited to Him, or you simply don't grasp, or understand, those concepts of God.

Lets take a look at your previous post and then I will attempt to share some basic theological concepts to answer your questions.

"Here is a question for you doc? What is the first written account of a god? Now there may have been oral accounts but we don't know what they were until someone wrote them down. Do you actually believe that the historical and archaeological evidence is that the God of the Jews is the first presentation of a god. You stated: Which do you belive originated first? Was it The God of heaven and creation? Or was it paganisim?
The point here is that your belief of which occurred first is really irrelevant it is no more important then the belief that Easter means Ishtar, beliefs need to be based upon some evidence. The problem for most Christians is that they take the Genesis account as if it was actually written at the time of the events instead of thousands of years later. So those events are believed to have been actual history rather then stories meant to lay the foundation for the national identity of the nation of Israel. You of course can believe that or believe all the mythology about Nimrod but your belief does not make it so."

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The first and greatest concept that you seem to have missed, and the one that would answer your first question, is to be found in Gen.1:1. "In the begining God created the heaven and the earth." From that point on the entire Bible is devoted to concepts of God, His abilites, including His creative abilites, His love for His creation, and His plan to redeem His entire creation (which includes us as His children). While it may be "irrelevent" to you as to which came first, "The God of heaven and creation? Or was it paganism?", itis a very relevent question that can only be answered one way. That is true of course only if one belives that there is a God of creation. The answer is also very relevent to the question of Ishtar as related to te observence of Easter.

It should also be noted that Adam and Eve were not Jews. Ergo the God that is first encountered in the Bible is not just the "God of the Jews," but rather He is the God of all mankind.

With that being said, it is clear that you must not accept the account of the creation of man in the exact image of God as stated in Gen.1:26, 27. If you did, you would also realize that the mental abilities of Adam and Eve, (who were not only created in the image of God but were created in a perfect world as perfect human beings), were far superior to our's today. That would also include memory. Even with the introduction of sin into the world Adam still lived to be 930yeas old. As we continue to follow the history of man as given in the Bible, we find that Noah lived to be 950 years of age. If Adam lived to be 930 years of age, and Noah lived to be 950 years of age, then it is quite obvious that their physical degeneation, due to age, had to be far less than ours today. Therefore it is quite reasonable to belive that man was able to give accurate repition of information that was given oraly from generation to generation. It is also quite reasonable that God, in His pefection, would not let man give an inaccuate account of His creation. So, yes I do accept what is written in Genesis to be the true account of this world's history as inspired by the Creator Himself.

As for establishing the idenity of the naton of Israel, may I suggest that you go to the New Testament and trace the ancestry of Jesus. You will find that you can follow his ancestry directly back to Adam and Eve, including the fact that there is a four hundred year gap in time between the last of the writing of the Old Testament and the writing of the New Testament. (If you are not well versed in biblical geneology it would be most helpful to study the subject.) It is also quite easy to trace the geneology of Nimrod as well as his progeny. Using these geneologies, combined with the study of ancient archaology and secular history, you will find the account of history as given in the Bible to be very correct. You are correct; It is not "my belief" that makes any of this true.

Doc said:
"If we are to accept the Scriptures as the inspired Word of God..."

"by the way I posted a thread on the definition of the word of God
http://www.christianforums.com/showp...63&postcount=1
and I notice that you did not answer, as did none of the TSDA's which I find interesting. It is kind of typical of the understanding of many Christians who only have circular reasoning for their beliefs. The Bible is the word of God because the word of God is the holy scriptures. At least when you ask them the definition of the Bible they are able to define the various books that make up the Bible, ask them what the word of God is and the silence is deafening.

I do have a theory, they don't want to admit that the word of God are messages from God to man but they are time and place and context specific. The messages of God to ancient Israel is not the same message that God wants to give 21st century people. And admitting that simple fact destroys the whole fundamentalist concepts about God and the Bible."

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Now for your statement that I did not post your other thread. I will tell you that I have now posted to your other thread. I trust that you will read it.

The topic of your other thread would seem to be somewhat self serving as explained in my post there. I can't speak for any others here in this forum, but I can safely tell you that you will have a very hard time showing "circular reasoning" by accepting what the Bible and history have to say. I hope that you are wearing ear plugs so that the "deafening silence" won't be painfull.

To debunk your "theory" of "fundalmentalist concepts about God and the Bible," beyond what I have stated here, as well as what I posted in your other thread, requires more time and energy than I have at the moment.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

The God of heaven and creation? Or was it paganism?", itis a very relevent question that can only be answered one way. That is true of course only if one belives that there is a God of creation. The answer is also very relevent to the question of Ishtar as related to te observence of Easter.

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You have only one answer because you don't even consider other possibilities. Hence you believe the first chapters of Genesis are meant to establish the literal history of what happened. which of course leads to numerous problems. You have to say as our lesson study for the Genesis quarterly that we don't understand what occurred on the 4th day of creation we will have to wait till we are in heaven to understand it. Because the scientific evidence is incontrovertible that the sun moon and stars have to be older then 6 thousand year history that the genesis genealogies provide.

the subject matter of the early Genesis stories are not necessarily meant to be literal, snakes don't talk, now maybe you think that in the perfect world of which no man can even gather a conception of (we eat which destroys cells, can life exist without decomposition, soon the world would be so full of life that nothing could move) the story explains the world that was viewed at the time of the writing. that is 1500 years after the event assuming a 6000 year scenario. What does the Adam and Eve story teach, it teaches obedience which was the major emphasis of the laws of moses and the foundation of the new nation. There is nothing in the story about Satan, nothing about God telling them how to understand God or life or anything. Nothing about the need for sacrifices. It is why most Christians rewrite the stories to try and fill in the multitude of gaps in the story. They want to make it into a literal history instead of using it as it is.

If you want to hold to the Genesis story as literal go ahead, but at least realize that there are other views. It is based upon assumptions which when examined don't really work. It restricts the Bible in ways that don't make sense either. Fundamentalism says here is the one and only way you can interpret this and even if it does not make sense we will hold to it and we will say we follow this Bible as the literal word of God and we obey it even though they don't at all. Because it has so many commands that are no longer applicable. Fundamentalists don't want to examine time and context and who the message is given to. But those are essential things to consider.

Ishtar has nothing to do with Easter, it is merely a word similarity between English words. The churches which founded the observance of Easter did not use the word Easter, it was a derivative of passover. The English use of Easter was not a reference to Ishtar as that would not have even been one of the gods of that region. And the Biblical genealogy and account of Nimrod have nothing in common with the mythology of Nimrod popularized by Hislop and having little in common with even the Nimrod of other myths.

Well, TM, I knew we would get to discuss this one soon! LOL!! My thoughts are simple. The first thing I would like to say is that it is apparent that you may have never atteneded a Sunrise Service. I assure that the Resurrection of the Son, is the only observing going on at them. There are no pagan rituals, it is church service outside, early in the morning.

Secondly, the pagans were not the only ones doing something on Sunday morning. They gave the names we use to the days of the week, months of the years. What is your non-pagan alternative to Monday, April 16? If you are going with the pagan argument you must be consistent. The days of the week and months of the years cannot be ok, and Sunday morning a problem....pagan after all is pagan, right? Satan can only take what God has created anad use them or convince humans to use them for his purposes. He comes to kill, steal, and destroy. He is a thief. God made Sunday mroning, satan took it, every other day he could, and anything else created by God(which BTW, is the whole world, Remember,the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof?), to use for his purposes. When you catch a thief with the goods, you don't allow him to keep them. So what satan made up some people and a story, complete with rituals for Sunday morning. I'm sorry, but Jesus trumps Ishtar and her mythological family any day. We give satan more power than he has. He is already lost the war, he is just here trying to win a few battles by having us share his fate, and while he is at it trying to get us to give as little praise and honor to God as he can talk us out of. sunday does not belong to him, it belongs to God, Creator of ALL seven of them. Sunrise, doesn't belong to stan, it belongs to God, Creator of the sun. Praise and worship does not belong to satan, it belongs to God Creator of ALL, including satan.

So you can allow satan to tell you the that you can only worship the Creator of ALL on one day of the week, and the he owns Sunday morning, I know better.

truthmagnet said:

last sabbath there was a flyer in our bulletin that advertised an easter sunrise service with special music provided by our local church! the ad said worship music was provided by some local band, special music provided by the seventh day adventist church and the message by some pastor from a non-denominational church. it's going to be held out on the edge of a famous gorge here in colorado at 6:30am. my husband and i are appauled and dumfounded. we have only lived in this area for 6 months. we've never attended a church that participated in such paganism. we've heard there has been a split in this church and another church formed nearby and there is still discord in this church however we don't really know why. we sure didn't want to get into the drama preferring to be the peacemakers but we will speak up if neccessary, we're not whimps. experience has showed us that most of these inner-church squabbles are truly petty, however we don't think participating in pagan rituals is petty. has anyone else experienced this?

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Princessdi said:

Well, TM, I knew we would get to discuss this one soon! LOL!! My thoughts are simple. The first thing I would like to say is that it is apparent that you may have never atteneded a Sunrise Service. I assure that the Resurrection of the Son, is the only observing going on at them. There are no pagan rituals, it is church service outside, early in the morning.

Secondly, the pagans were not the only ones doing something on Sunday morning. They gave the names we use to the days of the week, months of the years. What is your non-pagan alternative to Monday, April 16? If you are going with the pagan argument you must be consistent. The days of the week and months of the years cannot be ok, and Sunday morning a problem....pagan after all is pagan, right? Satan can only take what God has created anad use them or convince humans to use them for his purposes. He comes to kill, steal, and destroy. He is a thief. God made Sunday mroning, satan took it, every other day he could, and anything else created by God(which BTW, is the whole world, Remember,the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof?), to use for his purposes. When you catch a thief with the goods, you don't allow him to keep them. So what satan made up some people and a story, complete with rituals for Sunday morning. I'm sorry, but Jesus trumps Ishtar and her mythological family any day. We give satan more power than he has. He is already lost the war, he is just here trying to win a few battles by having us share his fate, and while he is at it trying to get us to give as little praise and honor to God as he can talk us out of. sunday does not belong to him, it belongs to God, Creator of ALL seven of them. Sunrise, doesn't belong to stan, it belongs to God, Creator of the sun. Praise and worship does not belong to satan, it belongs to God Creator of ALL, including satan.

So you can allow satan to tell you the that you can only worship the Creator of ALL on one day of the week, and the he owns Sunday morning, I know better.

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I respectfully disagree. I think this is following the Catholic Church

Thank you Truthisholy for a very logical response.

Commom sense and logic are commodities that are not found in great supply in the world today.


Original posted by OntheDL:

"Humans have tendency and weakness to compromise and go with flow."

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Oh so true! Going with the flow is an external evidence that the backbone has the consistancy of water.


Your brother in Christ,
Doc

Lord put your arms around my sholders, and your hand over my mouth!

TIH and CD, where is the compromise? Did or did not God create the days, and the pagans name them? The pagans were worshipping gods other than the One True God. That is satan's doing. None of them ever saw the actual events told in the stories of their gods. It is made up. You would rather take the made up story and give it more power over the one you know to be true, the Resurrection of Christ?

So now believing that Go dhas already wond the battle by the Scrifice of Jesus Christ, the compromise, or is believing in God's ownership of this world a compromise. Which on of these do you consider a catholic teaching, and not a biblical one? Do we really have only a form a godliness, but deny the power thereof?

truthisholy said:

I respectfully disagree. I think this is following the Catholic Church

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See Post #73. BTW, Happy Birthday!!!

thecountrydoc said:

Thank you Truthisholy for a very logical response.

Commom sense and logic are commodities that are not found in great supply in the world today.


Original posted by OntheDL:

Oh so true! Going with the flow is an external evidence that the backbone has the consistancy of water.


Your brother in Christ,
Doc

Lord put your arms around my sholders, and your hand over my mouth!

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