Let's try it this way-SDAs & Sunrise Services

Jimlarmore · Mar 19, 2007

gloryseven said:
I hope you all have a blessed celebration of Jesus Christ's resurrection from the dead. We have LOTs of spring flowers at mass. Its wonderful, especially compared to Lent, where now all we have are stick branches in vases. It is a time of sacrifice and repentance and drawing close to God in doing kindness and service to others. Jesus is alive and well. I pray that celebrating this special day will bring renewed hope and joy about His soon coming return for the church. God be with you all, bless you, comfort you and give you peace. Amen.

Praise God for your love and kindness. May God richly bless you in your life and continue to fill your heart with love and joy.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Aceybee · Mar 19, 2007

thecountrydoc said:
I must make one anaology now however. If one is married, it would be a mistake of collossal proportions to tell your spouse that you have decided honor her birthday by taking her/him out to dinner on the birth date of a former girlfriend or boyfriend. THINK ABOUT IT.

Do you only take your wife out to dinner one day a year? Going out to dinner on her birthday is really special, but you aren't limited to doing special things for her only on her birthday..

DrStupid_Ben · Mar 19, 2007

what if you wanted to take your wife out to dinner on valentines, but your ex-girlfriends birthday happens to be on the same day

truthmagnet · Mar 20, 2007

truthmagnet said:
last sabbath there was a flyer in our bulletin that advertised an easter sunrise service with special music provided by our local church! the ad said worship music was provided by some local band, special music provided by the seventh day adventist church and the message by some pastor from a non-denominational church. it's going to be held out on the edge of a famous gorge here in colorado at 6:30am. my husband and i are appauled and dumfounded. we have only lived in this area for 6 months. we've never attended a church that participated in such paganism. we've heard there has been a split in this church and another church formed nearby and there is still discord in this church however we don't really know why. we sure didn't want to get into the drama preferring to be the peacemakers but we will speak up if neccessary, we're not whimps. experience has showed us that most of these inner-church squabbles are truly petty, however we don't think participating in pagan rituals is petty. has anyone else experienced this?

anyway, it is historical fact that all the ecutriments that embody this ceremony are of pagan origin. sunrise service is of pagan origin. bunnys laying eggs, etc. etc. are of pagan origin. that's just history. apparently not as many as i thought have studied this or even understood what i was saying. this is the 2nd time i've attempted to get an idea of how other SDAs think on the subject and both times it got way off topic. so i will see where it goes for the next week. is there a way to just do the poll and not have comments. lol maybe i should just let this delicate dog die for now. thanks for your thoughts none the less.

thecountrydoc · Mar 22, 2007

Hello to all once again,

"I must make one analogy now however. If one is married, it would be a mistake of collossal proportions to tell your spouse that you have decided honor her birthday by taking her/him out to dinner on the birth date of a former girlfriend or boyfriend. THINK ABOUT IT."

Click to expand...

It seems that there is need of an explaination for the analogy since it is quite obvious that the point has been missed.

Certainly a husband would take his wife out to dinner more that one day a year. BUT, if he took her out on the birth date of a former girlfriend IN THE PLACE OF taking out on the correct date for HER birth date, I can assure you that the wife would not be pleased. In fact I would go so far as to say that any woman I know would be insulted!

How do you think God must feel when we observe Satan's counterfits, His holy day, and do it in conjunction with the counterfit for the Son (sun), under the guise of worship when we know full well why the time and date were originally chosen?

As for Valentine's day I think it is safe to say there would be no connection between Feb. 14th and anyone else's birth date. The same can not be said however for "Easter Sunday."

It should also be noted that birth dates as well as Valentine's day all have a fixed date. They never change. The day of the week for your birth date, as well as Valentine's Day, does rotate each year because of the odd number of days in the yearly calender. For that matter the resurection date for Jesus Christ can be traced historicaly and it too falls on the same date every year. The date for "Easter Sunday" however is determined (falls on), by the first Sunday after the vernal equnox. The change of the phaseof the moon.

It would be my hope that each who read, or post to this thread, can clearly understand the the analogy made in my earlier post.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

DrStupid_Ben · Mar 22, 2007

That works for a person who had actually previously celebrated the birthday of the ex-partner (that is, someone who actually celebrated easter as a pagan ritual) however, most people in this time are so divorced from the context of what easter would have originally meant. The point here is context. However, there is a flip side to my opinions on this subject.

I personally think that it would be great if we acknowledged the passover date, however, for all the complaining, by conservative churches like SDA's, about Easter being inappropriate, we are not rushing out in droves to celebrate the passover date.

Ok, here is my moderate approach:
If I apply the principle of not being a stumbling block to my sister or brother, I have two situations.

1. Participating with the greater Christian community on Easter, one reason - so as not to place another divisive issue between us

2. recognise that those who object to Easter are valuable in their opinions and are entitled to their concerns

truthmagnet · Mar 22, 2007

DrStupid_Ben said:
That works for a person who had actually previously celebrated the birthday of the ex-partner (that is, someone who actually celebrated easter as a pagan ritual) however, most people in this time are so divorced from the context of what easter would have originally meant. The point here is context. However, there is a flip side to my opinions on this subject.

I personally think that it would be great if we acknowledged the passover date, however, for all the complaining, by conservative churches like SDA's, about Easter being inappropriate, we are not rushing out in droves to celebrate the passover date.

Ok, here is my moderate approach:
If I apply the principle of not being a stumbling block to my sister or brother, I have two situations.

1. Participating with the greater Christian community on Easter, one reason - so as not to place another divisive issue between us

2. recognise that those who object to Easter are valuable in their opinions and are entitled to their concerns

thank you for your input. you make some interesting points. I agree about acknowledging passover. I think that is the perfect time for communion as well. God bless

DrStupid_Ben · Mar 23, 2007

Here is a little side track about communion (a good one I hope)

Lately (last few months), I've been thinking that communion should most definately be taken more than once a quarter. I think it would be a big change in culture to run communion every week, so maybe a bit less than that. It is interesting to know why we only have it once a quarter. (the change came from either the Lutherans or the Methodists, I'm not exactly sure, I've heard both theories). Communion was such an integeral part of the early church, they even had it at every meal I believe.
Also, I grew up with communion being a solemn experience where we all sit and dwell on the pain and suffering of Christ. These days, I actually see that there is joy and blessing in taking communion.
I wonder what a church that took footwashing each week would end up like.

Perhaps in some cases it may loose it's importance, but I think that would depend on the congregation.

Anyway, just a little side track

RC_NewProtestants · Mar 23, 2007

truthmagnet wrote:

my husband and i are appauled and dumfounded. we have only lived in this area for 6 months. we've never attended a church that participated in such paganism.

You have assumed it is paganism, that is doubtful but why not go to the service and write down all the paganism ideas that you find. For instance if they mention worshiping some other God, or talk about worshiping the sun in the sky. If it is participating in paganism then you should be able to see and document the paganism. I would be interested in seeing your documentation after the event.

Sophia7 · Mar 23, 2007

DrStupid_Ben said:
Here is a little side track about communion (a good one I hope)

Lately (last few months), I've been thinking that communion should most definately be taken more than once a quarter. I think it would be a big change in culture to run communion every week, so maybe a bit less than that. It is interesting to know why we only have it once a quarter. (the change came from either the Lutherans or the Methodists, I'm not exactly sure, I've heard both theories). Communion was such an integeral part of the early church, they even had it at every meal I believe.
Also, I grew up with communion being a solemn experience where we all sit and dwell on the pain and suffering of Christ. These days, I actually see that there is joy and blessing in taking communion.
I wonder what a church that took footwashing each week would end up like.

Perhaps in some cases it may loose it's importance, but I think that would depend on the congregation.

Anyway, just a little side track

Not sure where the Adventist practice of doing communion once every quarter came from (I would be in favor of doing it more often), but in my experience (my dad used to be a Lutheran, and I have attended several Lutheran churches), most if not all Lutheran churches have communion every week. Many Methodist churches do, also (sometimes even in a mid-week service rather than on Sunday), but even those that don't do it every week seem to do it more often than once per quarter (although that may be a fairly recent change from the quarterly model). Both Lutherans and Methodists also believe in some form of the "Real Presence" (not defined like the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation), rather than viewing the sacrament of the Lord's Supper as merely a memorial, as many other Protestants do.

truthmagnet · Mar 24, 2007

RC_NewProtestants said:
truthmagnet wrote:

You have assumed it is paganism, that is doubtful but why not go to the service and write down all the paganism ideas that you find. For instance if they mention worshiping some other God, or talk about worshiping the sun in the sky. If it is participating in paganism then you should be able to see and document the paganism. I would be interested in seeing your documentation after the event.

please see my post on march 20. the fact that it is a pagan ritual is historic fact. we are to worship the risen "SON" not the rising sun. God bless.

DrStupid_Ben · Mar 24, 2007

Sophia7 said:
Not sure where the Adventist practice of doing communion once every quarter came from (I would be in favor of doing it more often), but in my experience (my dad used to be a Lutheran, and I have attended several Lutheran churches), most if not all Lutheran churches have communion every week. Many Methodist churches do, also (sometimes even in a mid-week service rather than on Sunday), but even those that don't do it every week seem to do it more often than once per quarter (although that may be a fairly recent change from the quarterly model). Both Lutherans and Methodists also believe in some form of the "Real Presence" (not defined like the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation), rather than viewing the sacrament of the Lord's Supper as merely a memorial, as many other Protestants do.

Well I would say you're right about current Lutherans and Methodists. The better version I heard was that early methodists limited communion due to a lack of pastors that had to travel to many churches and the preaching schedules they had to have, so therefor communion was less frequent, and adventists have a large methodist heritage. The version on the Lutherans i heard was that communion was limited via a ruling of the state to regulate festivals and the church calender, in the 17th century or something. I haven't done any research about it though, so take it as you will.

thecountrydoc · Mar 24, 2007

If you do your historical homework you will find that since there is no "THUS SAITH THE LORD" on the frequency that communion should be partaken of, many of the protestant denominational founders and orginizers frowned on observing communion every week. The reasoning was two fold.

First: Many precieved a weekly oberservance to be following the traditions of the RC church.

Second: If communion were held every week it might become thought of as common place. To use an old saying; Familarity breeds contempt.

In the case of the SDA once a quarter was the chosen interval. Not so infrequent as to be forgotten nor so often as to make it common place.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

freeindeed2 · Mar 24, 2007

thecountrydoc said:
If you do your historical homework you will find that since there is no "THUS SAITH THE LORD" on the frequency that communion should be partaken of, many of the protestant denominational founders and orginizers frowned on observing communion every week. The reasoning was two fold.

First: Many precieved a weekly oberservance to be following the traditions of the RC church.

Second: If communion were held every week it might become thought of as common place. To use an old saying; Familarity breeds contempt.

In the case of the SDA once a quarter was the chosen interval. Not so infrequent as to be forgotten nor so often as to make it common place.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Hi Doc. The sybols of wine and bread were very common symbols taken out of their diets. It's something they did every day. "As often as you do this (drink wine and eat bread) do it to remember Jesus." I believe it's not something reserved for a special church service once every 13 weeks. We remember him in our home every time we eat. Eating and drinking is common, and it should be common. We never forget to eat, and we shouldn't "forget to remember" Jesus as often as we eat bread or drink juice from the vine.

My 2 cents.

Respectfully, and also your brother in Christ,

thecountrydoc · Mar 25, 2007

Hi freeindeed2,

I agree with you 100% that we should think about Jesus Christ every day. In fact He should be in our thinking contionualy. And you are also correct that we think of Him everytime we ask God to bless the food we are to eat. However that being said there are some additional points that need consideration.

The partaking of communion is a rememberance of that Passover weekend so long ago when Christ paid the supreme sacrifice for us in the plan of salvation. That event took place only once in the history of mankind and that alone takes it out of the realm of the common place. Communion is an acknowledgement of that incomprehinsible sacrifice. Not only has it happened only once here on earth, but in the words of Christ Himself; "Take, eat This is my body. This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Mark 14:22,24,25.

Because of the place it holds in the plan of salvation it would seem that a special time and cirumstance would be justified and proper for it's observance.

There is another aspect that is often overlooked, and that is we should prepare for communion by my acknowledging the "second greatest commandment," to love our neighbor. Simply stated; We should ask forgiveness from those that we may have wronged in any way and make things right with them, whether they be Christian or nonchristian, and come before the Lord with a spirit of love for our fellow man.

I can not speak for anyone else, but as for me, I feel that I need to do some soul searching before partaking of the body and blood of Christ.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

RC_NewProtestants · Mar 25, 2007

please see my post on march 20. the fact that it is a pagan ritual is historic fact. we are to worship the risen "SON" not the rising sun. God bless.

But it is also an historical fact that it is a celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus. There are resurrection myths that preceeded Jesus should we say that Jesus' resurrection is based upon a pagan myth? The symbol of the cross has a pagan meaning before Christ also. You have to learn that it is up to you to choose your focus and you have to learn to accept the focus of others is not necessarily yours.

truthmagnet · Mar 30, 2007

have you done any research on this? sunrise service, as a Christian celebration, started in the church of rome during the time that they compromised with the pagans by bringing the pagan statues and pagan rituals into the roman church that church put new Christian names on these pagan statues and ritituals. they are still pagan rituals and statues whether people who worship them or celebrate them call themselves Christian or not; whether they have Christian names on them or not. just because it has become traditional to mainstream Christianity doesn't make it good and holy. most of Christianity has no awareness of where these ideas come from. they are just like the world, celebrating these holidays like lemmings and giving it any thought. please read Ezekiel 8:13 and onward. man cannot make something wicked holy just by saying so.

DrStupid_Ben · Mar 30, 2007

There is nothing inherently bad about something like a sunrise service. When pagans used it to worship their deity, or to worship nature, then they are placing meaning on that service. Just like when Christians gather for a sunrise service, they are placing an alternate meaning on that same thing.

This is a case of having competing meanings placed on an event, or symbol. Take for example the symbol of trains. Trains reunite friends, lovers, and families, but they also carried the Jews to the concentration camps. This does not make trains inherently evil, or good. (In fact, trains are used even more now.)

It is meaning that is given to a symbol which makes it good or bad, not the symbol itself.

honorthesabbath · Apr 1, 2007

thecountrydoc said:
Hello to all once again,

It seems that there is need of an explaination for the analogy since it is quite obvious that the point has been missed.

Certainly a husband would take his wife out to dinner more that one day a year. BUT, if he took her out on the birth date of a former girlfriend IN THE PLACE OF taking out on the correct date for HER birth date, I can assure you that the wife would not be pleased. In fact I would go so far as to say that any woman I know would be insulted!

How do you think God must feel when we observe Satan's counterfits, His holy day, and do it in conjunction with the counterfit for the Son (sun), under the guise of worship when we know full well why the time and date were originally chosen?

As for Valentine's day I think it is safe to say there would be no connection between Feb. 14th and anyone else's birth date. The same can not be said however for "Easter Sunday."

It should also be noted that birth dates as well as Valentine's day all have a fixed date. They never change. The day of the week for your birth date, as well as Valentine's Day, does rotate each year because of the odd number of days in the yearly calender. For that matter the resurection date for Jesus Christ can be traced historicaly and it too falls on the same date every year. The date for "Easter Sunday" however is determined (falls on), by the first Sunday after the vernal equnox. The change of the phaseof the moon.

It would be my hope that each who read, or post to this thread, can clearly understand the the analogy made in my earlier post.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Hi Doc--I am really tickled about this. When I read your example of taking the spouse out to dinner on the ex's birthdates--I 'got' it immediately! I thought it was an excellent example of combining truth with error and paganism with Christianity. It cracked me up when I saw the 2 responses to it. It was like--ZING--right over the head! Too funny!

RC_NewProtestants · Apr 1, 2007

doc wrote:

How do you think God must feel when we observe Satan's counterfits, His holy day, and do it in conjunction with the counterfit for the Son (sun), under the guise of worship when we know full well why the time and date were originally chosen?

So Jesus rose from the dead on Satan's holy day? It that the point of this. This is all such nonsense, the calendar does not give exact days for any kind of remembrance. It did not in Israel's calendar or anyone else's. They inserted intercalary dates into the calendar which would change the day just as much as our method which makes a date fall on a different named day of the week. So the church after a good long battle determined what they thought was logical choice and maintained at least the named day of the week to be the same.

And now that day is Satan's holy day. Why, well not because Satan said so or God said so, no it is merely the tradition of people foolish enough to think that the stuff in Alexander Hislop's the Two Babylons is accurate.

Here is a good article on that book from someone who used it to write his own book and then found out just how wrong it was.

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology

By Ralph Woodrow

This article can be found in the Christian Research Journal Volume22/ Issue 2 2000 Book Reviews 54-56

http://newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm

Let's try it this way-SDAs & Sunrise Services

Should Christians that know the truth and origins of "holidays" participate in them?

Things have changed and the tradition overrides the pagan history

I don't see any harm in it.

The dilution of the truth is sad. How do we re-enlighten the church on these issues.

I'm appauled too. What are they thinking?

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