Let's talk about the Trinity and Free Will.

We do make choices. And we can experience making our own choices. But God's word says that in sin we were being worked by Satan's evil spirit >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience ." (in Ephesians 2:2)

So, were we really making our own choices, then, while in sin and in Satan's kingdom?

If you have a free will . . . does this mean you have total control of your choices?

And if you control what you choose, does this mean you are in total separation from God so you control your own self?

And if your will is in full separation from God, how much ability do you have to make a good choice . . . in total separation from God who "is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16) and the only Being who is good?

"No one is good but One, that is, God." (in Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19)

"without Me you can do nothing" (in John 15:5)

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5)

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Nowhere does the New Testament say we work our own wills to do what God wants.

The glory is to God, if we ever do what He really wants . . . what He really means by His word. We must not give glory to our own wills for doing anything really right. God is so better than we are. He alone works us to will and do what is truly good; it is a miracle, then, if at any time, we ever do what He desires.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

But are we good enough and able to get our own selves to submit to God?

Or, does He speak this and then bring to pass what He knows He means?

Isaiah 55:11 says God's word accomplishes what He desires . . . what He means, I understand. It is like how God spoke for there to be Adam, and then God did what He spoke.

Our Apostle Paul says the word of God "effectively works in you who believe." (in 1 Thessalonians 2:13) His word in us does all which He means by His word . . . how He works this in us.

But in separation from God who is love, our wills are love-dead. What love choice, then, can a person make if the person is not alive in God's love??

I see why, then, Jesus says, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me," in Luke 9:23.

If I deny my self, my self includes my own human and created will, does it not? And how can a person's love-dead self do this how God means?

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

If I was a slave of sin, how free was my will . . . while I was being worked-in by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience"? (in Ephesians 2:2)

According to this scripture, someone disobedient to God is being worked-in by Satan's evil spirit. So, how free is that person's will . . . in slavery to Satan?

In Jesus we have been made alive in God's love so we have the character to make love's choices. Before Jesus our wills had a different character.

rodm1974 said:

Actually the commands were given NOT to follow, but to condemn us all, causing us to have to look to grace, that is what Paul says in Romans. My paraphrase of course.

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Actually, Jesus speaks of rewards and consequences depending on whether or not we obey His commandments, living our lives by how He led His. It's by His Grace in cooperation with our will to want to obey Him that we succeed in obeying. So, you must've misunderstood what Paul was saying.

Maria Billingsley said:

When one claims God has control over everything, that includes the darkness of sin. This is why Calviniism, when logically concluded, is in great error.

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rodm1974 said:

I think you need to take this up with God, not me: SEE this verse.... I am the LORD, and there is none else. [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Various English translations of that verse (Isaiah 45:7) use the term ‘calamity’ or ‘disaster’ instead of ‘evil’.

The evil spoken of in this context is not about moral evil, in the sense of wickedness, but instead “calamity” in the sense of disaster from divine judgment, in which Amos 3:5-6, Haggai 1:7-11 and Jeremiah 18:11 also speak of “calamity” in similar context.

For example, there’s no truth in God “creating the devil” as R.C. Sproul claimed. God created a good angel, Lucifer, and he chose evil, freely. Certainly, God allowed it, but His simple permission no more created the devil than the father of the prodigal son created a disobedient son, simply by allowing him to leave. People make their own choices.

rodm1974 said:

When Adam was created did, he get to choose via his mighty free will? Nope

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I don't know what you're getting at, but no one is arguing against the fact that there are many things that we have no choice over.

rodm1974 said:

When Jonah Said No, I'm not going to Ninevah, God said, OK sorry I bothered you, I mean I can't coherse you, and make you go, I'll just drop the whole thing, then God walks away sulking, sad He couldn't accomplish His will.

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The Ninevites killed many of Jonah's countrymen, and understandably Jonah decided to flee from his assignment (Jonah 4:1-3). God chose to use extreme measures to coerce Jonah to go to Nineveh. I don't see any problem there.

There are several references to “freewill” that occur in the Bible, as found in the King James translation of the Bible. Here are some examples:


Here are additional variations to free-will, as found in the New American Standard translation:

rodm1974 said:

The scriptures are full of verses that do not make free will, the king / big dog on the block, but instead talk about Gods Sovereignty. Let me just give one example, Paul says the following in

Romans CH 9
"16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

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Paul is talking about God shifting His covenant over to the Gentiles “who did not pursue righteousness but attained righteousness thru faith”.

”What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭30‬-‭33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Gentiles were not chosen because of their will or desire to be saved nor were they chosen because of their works, they were chosen because God decided to show mercy on them. That’s what Paul is talking about in Romans 9 the covenant shift from the Israelites to the Gentiles. He mentions it again in chapter 11.

Water and Fire said:

Free will is abouslutely not a thing. God is in complete control.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

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God did declare the end from the beginning when He wrote the book of life containing the names of everyone who would be saved. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have free will. Luke 13:6-9 is a great example of free will as well as Romans 2:4-5 and 2 Timothy 2:12.

”And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain because the tree itself has to decide to either cooperate or not.

”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that despite God leading them to repentance they still refuse and are storing up God’s wrath upon themselves.

”It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.“
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that even tho Paul and Timothy are believers and followers of Christ they are still capable of denying Him which will result in Christ denying them.

Maria Billingsley said:

First , it has been universally understood that the Message Bible is a borderline dangerous translation so you may consider setting it aside.

As far as Romans 9, one must read in full context what Paul is saying. God had a purpose and He clearly states it in Exodus 33..

"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

This is not to be twisted into thinking that we are blameless for our sin. This is not our Father nor His Gospel of His Kingdom. This is a corruption invented by false teachers.

Additionally, the Trinity is difficult for many to understand however to say
"Has God ever been flesh? Nope!" is not the Christian world view. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God in the flesh. We can not deny what was foretold by the Prophet Isaiah ....

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Blessings

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I agree I would advise to stay away from bibles that contain commentary especially for people who are just learning. The word of God is sufficient.

rodm1974 said:

You might have missed this part:
The scriptures also declare God and Jesus are "ONE"... How so?

Has God ever been flesh? Nope!

Has Jesus ever been totally flesh, absent of Spirit? Nope!

So they are one in Spirit, that is their common denominator.

So we have God, who is Spirit, Jesus who was born in the flesh, via a virgin, without sin, full of Gods Spirit, without measure, they are 2 and yet in Spirit they are one.

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They are One God with 3 distinct personalities. I’m not seeing the third personality in your explanation of the Trinity. In this explanation I only see two personalities. The Holy Spirit is a third personality of the Trinity.

rodm1974 said:

I think you need to take this up with God, not me: SEE this verse.... I am the LORD, and there is none else. [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Did God cause Aaron to make the golden calf? Did God cause Cain to kill Able? Did God cause Ananias and Saphira to lie to the Holy Spirit then kill them for doing so? You need to think more about what “all things” encompasses.

rodm1974 said:

That is very true. I'm not even so sure Calvin was in error. Says who?

I mean IF Calvin stated, what the scriptures plainly say, would Calvin be in error, just because you say so, or your church says so, or your denomination says so, or because your doctrines say so ?

Strange how the universal church in the book of Acts had no doctrines other than Christ, and what the 12 spoke to them, and in some cases the 12 weren't even needed as God was speaking to the individual members of the body.

Also don't forget the Bible (Which I love) is a new phenomenon.

It wasn't until the 1400's that we had the printing press. So did God's word fail all those believers in the dark ages, before the 1400's, did God leave them as if they were orphans?

Possibly "OUR" current definition of "THE WORD" is wrong. Just something to ponder.

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John Calvin is probably one of the very worst theologians who ever lived. I wish I could’ve been there to set him straight because he was so far off it’s ridiculous. He’s a 16th century theologian, why on earth would anyone hold his theology in such high regard? His teachings were refuted 1300 years before he was even born by Iranaeus. If you want to know what the apostles taught and how they intended the New Testament to be interpreted I would take the advice of a 2nd century theologian who was actually taught by a follower of the apostles over a 16th century theologian any day.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the gloryof God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the causeof imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all goodthings with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all goodthings, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternaldarkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the causeof [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

BNR32FAN said:

God did declare the end from the beginning when He wrote the book of life containing the names of everyone who would be saved. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have free will. Luke 13:6-9 is a great example of free will as well as Romans 2:4-5 and 2 Timothy 2:12.

”And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain because the tree itself has to decide to either cooperate or not.

”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that despite God leading them to repentance they still refuse and are storing up God’s wrath upon themselves.

”It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.“
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that even tho Paul and Timothy are believers and followers of Christ they are still capable of denying Him which will result in Christ denying them.

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Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.


How exactly is God sending the Assyrians against Israel, in this verse? Did he ask them to go against Israel as punishment?
The Assyrians don't worship the God of the Jews, how exactly is he making that happen? Free will is nothing more than Christian heresay, and is not supported anywhere in scripture.

How exactly does the following rhetorical question support the idea of free will?


Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.


There is nothing there that supports free will either.


Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.


What about that verse... does that support the idea of free will?
....The answer is no it doesn't, and you have to do some pretty spectacular mental gymnastics to gel with the idea of man having a will that free.

Water and Fire said:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.


How exactly is God sending the Assyrians against Israel, in this verse? Did he ask them to go against Israel as punishment?
The Assyrians don't worship the God of the Jews, how exactly is he making that happen? Free will is nothing more than Christian heresay, and is not supported anywhere in scripture.

How exactly does the following rhetorical question support the idea of free will?


Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.


There is nothing there that supports free will either.


Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.


What about that verse... does that support the idea of free will?
....The answer is no it doesn't, and you have to do some pretty spectacular mental gymnastics to gel with the idea of man having a will that free.

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God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to make an example of him because Pharaoh was a wicked man. I never said that God does not use people as His instruments from time to time.

So what about the verses I quoted? Can you please explain how these are not examples of free will?

BNR32FAN said:

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to make an example of him because Pharaoh was a wicked man. I never said that God does not use people as His instruments from time to time.

So what about the verses I quoted? Can you please explain how these are not examples of free will?

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I do believe your argument was that if God gives us commands, then that must mean we have free will, correct?