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The nonauthoritative, noncanonical book of the Protoevangelion of James says NOTHING about how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born (if at all). It does not confirm that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex Ever.
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=mrmccormo;58270568]Actually, sir, I currently attend a WELS Lutheran church with my wife and I was raised in a non-denominational Evangelical church. So I can assure you that the virginity of Mary was never a part of my dotrine. I was taught - as I'm sure you were - that it was a silly doctrine.
However, as a Christian who is trying to humble himself before our God, I make it a point to challenge doctrines that I once held as true. It's...refreshing to admit you're wrong. You hold the stance "Mary had sex", which obviously makes the stance "Mary remained a virgin" false in your eyes
However, what evidence do you have that Mary had sex?
I mean, you clearly believe that she didn't remain a virgin. What evidence leads you to make that conclusion?
I'm not sure if believing in Mary's virginity is a salvific issue. And I don't know if those who teach Mary's virginity (like the Catholics and Orthodox) view it as a salvific issue, either.
But here is the thing: when you say "Mary did not remain a virgin",
then you're disagreeing with hundreds of years of early church history.
You're not simply saying "Mary did not remain a virgin".
You're also saying "...and my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, who were filled with the same Holy Spirit I am, who I am going to see in Heaven for hundreds of years were believing the wrong thing."
You are holding up your own opinion against hundreds of years of Christianity.
Now, I'm not saying "majority rules", but I think if you are going to make such a bold claim that flies in the face of hundreds of years of Christian history, you might want to quantify your position.
The burden of proof rests on you and anyone else who says "Mary did not remain a virgin".
Your turn.
Again, did you read Mary's life and Anna's before the "pledge"? Did you think why she and Joseph (who was nearly twice her age) were betrothed? Think backt to the "stoning" part of the Jewish tradition at that time. That'll help you out.
We already have ad nauseum. You choose not believe it as Truth.
Thank you (FINALLY) for the honesty.
1. There is NO substantiation for the point here that Mary made a vow and the exact content of said vow. Nothing.
There is - the passages in Luke, if we trust that what Luke wrote was accurate, and we take Mary at her word (ie if we agree that Mary was not lying).2. There is NO substantiation for it being a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER. Nothing.
Your point is ENTIRELY irrelevant. Your apologetic that ("it can't be proved to the highest level possible that She ever DID have sex!") is not permitted in any debate and is entirely irrelevant. It's also an apologetic YOU don't accept thus cannot ask others to accept an apologetic you reject. Can you prove that Joseph Smith didn't find those plates? Can you prove that Mary didn't have other children? Can you prove that Mary was not 8 feet tall, had pink hair, lived almost entirely on fish tacos? I'm SURE you know that your whole argument here is baseless and is one YOU reject - thus, we must too.
But you are very wrong on one point:
Luke does NOT state that Mary had no INTENTION to EVER have sex. Not that intention = dogmatic evidence, but Luke says NOTHING about Her intention (and I think you know that).
So, we're right back to "square one." There are two (maybe 3) denominations out of the 50,000+ some Catholics insist exist that insist that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER - and yet they have nothing to support it other than that those centuries later who said it was said that it was true. Nothing about why the frequency of sex among couples is a matter of highest importance, nothing to document that Mary never once had sex. Nothing. Then why is this dogma? Why is it taught? Does truth not matter vis-a-vis the most esteemed and revered human in history? Does truth not matter when spreading such a very personal (and potentially embarrassing and hurtful) issue about a person? Does truth not matter, even in DOGMA? I think those are importance questions but I KNOW they won't be addressed or considered.
And there is no indication that her clearly stated intention to not ever know a man was not the result of a vow.
There is - the passages in Luke, if we trust that what Luke wrote was accurate, and we take Mary at her word (ie if we agree that Mary was not lying).
The scan of the text on its own clearly supports that Mary did not ever intend to engage in sexual relations.
I see, so you buy hook, line, and sinker all stuff that is documented in US history, but you don't bother to believe the Church's history.You have given opinion... not PROOF.
It is your job to defend your Dogma's is it not? If you didn't have such dogma's, no one would be challenging you. It isn't about disagreements... it is about producing evidence.
My belief? I could care less if Mary had sex or not. It doesn't effect my salvation in the least. The biblical norm is for a man and woman to come together and become one, to multiply if physically possible.
What I do care about is truth. If you got it, show it. But alas, you can't.
1. Let's say there is no indication that you can prove that Columbus ever ate fish during his historic journey westward, does that prove that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that he ate exactly 14.5 ounces of fish per day during that journey? Do you see the "problem" of your apologetic? What "indications" do you have that Joseph Smith didn't find those plates? If you have nothing of consequence (even to the degree that you have for Mary had no sex ever), is that confirmation to the highest level possible that it is a matter of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that he did?
2. What "clearly stated intention?" How is her intention confirmation of it's fulfullment (even if you have ANYTHING to indicate such a vow, which has not yet been provided)?
Luke says NOTHING of Her status in this regard at the moment of Her death ( or was it undeath - what is the EO teaching there?). It may well be that Luke was written before Her death. Luke says NOTHING about Her sex life after Jesus was born.
I completely disagree. There is NOTHING in Luke - in this text or any other, that says Mary had no sex ever - or even that it was her INTENT to have no sex ever. There's NOTHING about Her at the moment of Her death (or was it undeath)?
Yes, AT THE ANNUNCIATION, Mary states that She IS (Present tense) a virgin. I'll state here and now, "I AM a virgin." A true statement. How does that confirm that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that I will remain such throughout and up to the second of my death (or undeath)? It doesn't.
Can you prove that Mary never made a vow ?
The analysis has been given repeatedly.
Why do you doubt Mary's word ?
You have also disregarded the actual order of the recorded exchange with Gabriel.
=Dorothea;58272619]I see, so you buy hook, line, and sinker all stuff that is documented in US history, but you don't bother to believe the Church's history.
I don't even know how you read the Bible without proper historical background and understanding the traditions of the time. It seems it would be awfully difficult and incomplete.
Scriptural proof was given by Thekla on countless occasions through Luke and the OT she talked about. Apparently that isn't good enough.
So, anyhow, you don't believe history when it comes to Church, but I'm betting you believe other history without any problem.
Again, I think it's your being brought up to be anti-Catholic because you seem to have brought that out to mr in your response to him, and bunch us Orthodox up with the Catholics, as if we're the same.
Again, some research on our beliefs and our whole holistic, ascetic, and spiritual mindset and doctrines/dogmas would see that we are different,
but we do share the belief in Mary because both Churches actually preserve and value the history of the Church.
Again, it's not good enough because you'd have to agree with a Catholic on something. Heaven forbid!
=Thekla;58272883]Do you have dogmatic beliefs ?
What is your standard for dogma ?
We have provided linguistic, Biblical (including the use of "types"), cultural and historical support for our belief on this matter.
The result of the textual analysis of the Lukan passages is clear.
Textual analysis is not opinion.
Since I have no position (much less DOGMA), I don't need to.
Can you prove that there are not 6.1 billion cute furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor? IF not, does that confirmed that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that there is?
I know. However creative. But so far, nothing to indicate that She made a vow, what was the content of said vow, and that at the moment of Her death (or was it undeath, what is the EO view there?) She was a virgin; that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER.
I don't. Where did she say, "I had no sex ever?" Or even "It is my intention to have no sex ever?" We both know, She didn't.
No.
I'm simply noting what was said and not said.
And, yes, I'm viewing it via the ancient Catholic (is it also EO?) Tradition that embraces that the Annunciation and the Incarnation happened ON THE SAME DAY. If this tradition is true, then Mary's reply in the present tense makes perfect sense. In any case, my saying "I am a virgin" is not confirmation that I'm a perpetual virgin - that at the moment of my death (or undeath), I WILL BE a virgin. I think you know that.
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Since I have no position (much less DOGMA), I don't need to.
Her stated intention may or may not have been a vow.
Can you prove that Mary never made a vow ?
You have never described your standard for confirming dogma.Can you prove that there are not 6.1 billion cute furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor? IF not, does that confirmed that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that there is?
I know. However creative. But so far, nothing to indicate that She made a vow, what was the content of said vow, and that at the moment of Her death (or was it undeath, what is the EO view there?) She was a virgin; that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary Had No Sex EVER.
The present is not a tense of time, but state -- you have mistaken "present tense" for the English present tense. They are not the same. Her statement is further supported by the ordinal flow of the passages as concepts are revealed one at a time (as is typical in conversations where each speaker's statements are brief) and she responds to each.I don't. Where did she say, "I had no sex ever?" Or even "It is my intention to have no sex ever?" We both know, She didn't.
Actually, perhaps you are not accustomed to really deeply reading and analyzing text, as your opinion does not demonstrate an understanding of the logical progression of the conversation.No.
I'm simply noting what was said and not said.
Present tense is not a time, but a statement of what is ongoing.And, yes, I'm viewing it via the ancient Catholic (is it also EO?) Tradition that embraces that the Annunciation and the Incarnation happened ON THE SAME DAY. If this tradition is true, then Mary's reply in the present tense makes perfect sense. In any case, my saying "I am a virgin" is not confirmation that I'm a perpetual virgin - that at the moment of my death (or undeath), I WILL BE a virgin. I think you know that.
LOL...... textual analysis doesn't say that she made a vow to be an ever virgin nor does it say that she never had sex.
Do you have dogmatic beliefs ?
What is your standard for dogma ?
We have provided linguistic, Biblical (including the use of "types"), cultural and historical support for our belief on this matter.
The result of the textual analysis of the Lukan passages is clear.
=Thekla;58274192]You are correct; it does not demonstrate a vow.
One may see that a vow is implied, or not.
It does demonstrate that she did not intend to engage in sexual relations in marriage.
Here then, one must assume that Mary was or was not reliable in her statements.
I think she was reliable in her statements.
Firstly, I have no reason to doubt what she said of her own intention;
secondly, she is known to have heard and kept the word of God, resulting in the birth of Jesus Christ.
Yep, but they keep saying the same thing over and over, ignoring the support we give them. Blinders on, I say.
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