Let's Talk About Hell

Lulav · May 17, 2010

Duckybill said:
Has anyone who doesn't believe in eternal punishment in Hell Fire said where the wicked will spend eternity?

Those without faith and unbelieving will spend eternity with Satan in the Lake of Fire.

Lulav · May 17, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
I just must say that I am blessed to see the growth that I sense and read in this!

Amen!

Not only do I believe that one will objectively experience the wrath of God, I think that bitterness and rejection of God will be actualized in the soul . . . so that tho they are being tormented objectively, they are also being tormented subjectively in that tho they burn, they will still never choose to love God . . . EEKS . . . that is scary indeed.

My Pastor has said, in addition to the physicality of hell, that he could not imagine a more hellish reality to spend eternity seeing what your life here and in bliss with Jesus could have been like! WOW!

There will be people that aren't tossed in the Lake of Fire that will experience that too, that is called 'outer darkness'.

Mathetes the kerux · May 17, 2010

Lulav said:
There will be people that aren't tossed in the Lake of Fire that will experience that too, that is called 'outer darkness'.

I think outerdarkness is also the lake of fire . . . for the lake is where all whose names are not in the Book of Life will reside. So unless those in outerdarkness have their names in the Book (which really cannot be because those in the Book get into the Kingdom of Light) they are in the Lake too.

I believe outerdarkness refers not to a literal dark place, but is outer darkness because it is not in the "light" of Gods favor and grace. It is akin to the Kingdom of Light vs the Kingdom of Darkness . . . the Kingdom of Darkness is not called that because it is dark, as if it is deviod of any luminescence, but because it stands in opposition to the Kingdom which is THE LIGHT. IMO.

Lulav · May 18, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
I think outerdarkness is also the lake of fire . . . for the lake is where all whose names are not in the Book of Life will reside. So unless those in outerdarkness have their names in the Book (which really cannot be because those in the Book get into the Kingdom of Light) they are in the Lake too.

I believe outerdarkness refers not to a literal dark place, but is outer darkness because it is not in the "light" of Gods favor and grace. It is akin to the Kingdom of Light vs the Kingdom of Darkness . . . the Kingdom of Darkness is not called that because it is dark, as if it is deviod of any luminescence, but because it stands in opposition to the Kingdom which is THE LIGHT. IMO.

But in the very end there is only one kingdom left. There is the New Earth and on that New Earth the eternal city of Light, the New Jerusalem where G-d and the Lamb reside and those who are found in the lambs book. There is no more sun or moon or planets or stars. The L-RD is the only light source. The city is a walled city and is filled with light but out side the city there is no source of light.

Now we think about heaven as the eternal happy place, like the garden of Eden, paradise and nothing bad there. But we read in Revelation 22 this:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Mathetes the kerux · May 18, 2010

Lulav said:
But in the very end there is only one kingdom left. There is the New Earth and on that New Earth the eternal city of Light, the New Jerusalem where G-d and the Lamb reside and those who are found in the lambs book. There is no more sun or moon or planets or stars. The L-RD is the only light source. The city is a walled city and is filled with light but out side the city there is no source of light.

Now we think about heaven as the eternal happy place, like the garden of Eden, paradise and nothing bad there. But we read in Revelation 22 this:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

But in the very end there is only one kingdom left.

Truly, but this is beside the point. I was referring to the usage of "darkness" as an antipathy to light and not literal lack of luminescence.

There is the New Earth and on that New Earth the eternal city of Light, the New Jerusalem where G-d and the Lamb reside and those who are found in the lambs book. There is no more sun or moon or planets or stars. The L-RD is the only light source. The city is a walled city and is filled with light but out side the city there is no source of light.

Amen

Now we think about heaven as the eternal happy place, like the garden of Eden, paradise and nothing bad there. But we read in Revelation 22 this:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

Indeed, but I have to factor in the symbology of Revelation and the other statements made in the book. Like this:

Rev 21:7-8
8 " But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NASU

They cannot enter because they are in the Lake of Fire; and because they are NOT in the city where the Lamb is the light, they are thus in outerdarkness.

Lulav · May 18, 2010

Yes, Rev 21 has the list of those who do not enter. These do burn in the lake of fire.

But for the
cowardly (lacking faith)
and unbelieving
and abominable
and murderers
and immoral persons
and sorcerers
and idolaters
and all liars,

"their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Rev 22 has a very similar list

"Outside are the
dogs
and the sorcerers
and the immoral persons
and the murderers
and the idolaters,
and everyone who loves and practices lying"

The first group it plainly states they will have their part in the lake of fire.

The second group does not say that and two from the first group are missing, those that didn't have faith and the unbelieving, those are burning in the lake of fire.

Where do you suppose this other (second) group resides? They are not in the Holy city they are said to be 'without'.

ShermanN · May 18, 2010

Pardon me for interrupting, but I too do not believe in Hell for several reasons, the primary one being that not one word in the Hebrew or Greek correctly translates as "Hell". Have you noticed that the word "Hell" is progressively being illiminated from English versions. The 1610 Catholic Douay Rheims version had the word Hell in it 110 times, the KJV 64 times, the NKJV 32 times, NIV and other modern versions only 12-14 times, and some correctly do not have the word Hell in them at all. To me, if endless conscious torment was a valid threat it would be repeatedly and clearly stated in scripture, especially in the OT; but it's not.

The 4 words mistranslated as "Hell" in the KJV are Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartaroo. Sheol (Hebrew) simply means grave or the realm of the dead. Hades (Greek) also means realm of the dead and was used to translate Sheol in the LXX. Tartaroo, a torturous realm in Hades, is only used once in scripture and speaks of sinning angels being held there until judgment - not for humans and not endless. And Gehenna (Greek transliteration of Ga Hinnom, which is Hebrew for the valley of Hinnom) would best be interpreted the city's (Jerusalem's) trash dump where trash and dead flesh is consumed, where there was a continuous and no shortage of maggots. 1st Century Pharisees spoke of Gehenna primarily as a place of Remedial Punishment in the after-life, though they argued over what would happen to the especially wicked - annihilation or conscious torment of an undermined long length. As noted though, for most people, Gehenna was a place/event of Remedial punishment; it was believed that loved ones were surely purified in Gehenna, there less than 12 months, and then rose to Ga Eden (Paradise). Thus even the metaphor Gehenna did not speak specifically of Hell. For most people, it would best be interpreted as Purgatory.

The threat concerning sin is "death", not "conscious unending torment", not "Hell". "The soul that sins it shall die." "In the day you eat of it you shall die." The wages of sin is death."

Der Alte · May 18, 2010

ShermanN said:
Pardon me for interrupting, but I too do not believe in Hell for several reasons, the primary one being that not one word in the Hebrew or Greek correctly translates as "Hell". Have you noticed that the word "Hell" is progressively being illiminated from English versions. The 1610 Catholic Douay Rheims version had the word Hell in it 110 times, the KJV 64 times, the NKJV 32 times, NIV and other modern versions only 12-14 times, and some correctly do not have the word Hell in them at all. To me, if endless conscious torment was a valid threat it would be repeatedly and clearly stated in scripture, especially in the OT; but it's not.

This has been posted in this thread several times. This argument is basically irrelevant "Hell" was a convenient word. The concept definitely appears in scripture.

The 4 words mistranslated as "Hell" in the KJV are Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartaroo. Sheol (Hebrew) simply means grave or the realm of the dead. Hades (Greek) also means realm of the dead and was used to translate Sheol in the LXX. Tartaroo, a torturous realm in Hades, is only used once in scripture and speaks of sinning angels being held there until judgment - not for humans and not endless. And Gehenna (Greek transliteration of Ga Hinnom, which is Hebrew for the valley of Hinnom) would best be interpreted the city's (Jerusalem's) trash dump where trash and dead flesh is consumed, where there was a continuous and no shortage of maggots.

You are only giving part of the story. Please read the post at this link posted earlier in this thread for the facts about Gehenna in the Jewish Encyclopedia

1st Century Pharisees spoke of Gehenna primarily as a place of Remedial Punishment in the after-life, though they argued over what would happen to the especially wicked - annihilation or conscious torment of an undermined long length. As noted though, for most people, Gehenna was a place/event of Remedial punishment; it was believed that loved ones were surely purified in Gehenna, there less than 12 months, and then rose to Ga Eden (Paradise). Thus even the metaphor Gehenna did not speak specifically of Hell. For most people, it would best be interpreted as Purgatory.

I don't see any evidence for this. Here, from the Talmud, are the teachings of the two major Rabbinical schools, Shammai and Hillel, in Jerusalem before the time of Jesus. Both taught eternal punishment for some.

Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."

We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." p. 27

[paragraph continues] Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].
Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The threat concerning sin is "death", not "conscious unending torment", not "Hell". "The soul that sins it shall die." "In the day you eat of it you shall die." The wages of sin is death."

If you ignore the vss. which clearly show eternal, unending punishment, in flames, called variously Gehenna, Hades, and the Lake of Fire.

Mathetes the kerux · May 19, 2010

ShermanN said:
Pardon me for interrupting, but I too do not believe in Hell for several reasons, the primary one being that not one word in the Hebrew or Greek correctly translates as "Hell". Have you noticed that the word "Hell" is progressively being illiminated from English versions. The 1610 Catholic Douay Rheims version had the word Hell in it 110 times, the KJV 64 times, the NKJV 32 times, NIV and other modern versions only 12-14 times, and some correctly do not have the word Hell in them at all. To me, if endless conscious torment was a valid threat it would be repeatedly and clearly stated in scripture, especially in the OT; but it's not.

The 4 words mistranslated as "Hell" in the KJV are Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartaroo. Sheol (Hebrew) simply means grave or the realm of the dead. Hades (Greek) also means realm of the dead and was used to translate Sheol in the LXX. Tartaroo, a torturous realm in Hades, is only used once in scripture and speaks of sinning angels being held there until judgment - not for humans and not endless. And Gehenna (Greek transliteration of Ga Hinnom, which is Hebrew for the valley of Hinnom) would best be interpreted the city's (Jerusalem's) trash dump where trash and dead flesh is consumed, where there was a continuous and no shortage of maggots. 1st Century Pharisees spoke of Gehenna primarily as a place of Remedial Punishment in the after-life, though they argued over what would happen to the especially wicked - annihilation or conscious torment of an undermined long length. As noted though, for most people, Gehenna was a place/event of Remedial punishment; it was believed that loved ones were surely purified in Gehenna, there less than 12 months, and then rose to Ga Eden (Paradise). Thus even the metaphor Gehenna did not speak specifically of Hell. For most people, it would best be interpreted as Purgatory.

The threat concerning sin is "death", not "conscious unending torment", not "Hell". "The soul that sins it shall die." "In the day you eat of it you shall die." The wages of sin is death."

K, here is a thoroughly Biblical term: LAKE OF FIRE

and two passages have PEOPLE there for ETERNITY Matt 25 and Rev 14. The old "soul that sins shall die" falls because of 2 things:
1. A proper systematic that integrates all relevant verses in which the two cited above factor
2. Death is commonly a metaphor, as in Eph 2 where those who are dead are still actually LIVING and needs to be seen in its proper context, NOT as cessation of consciousness or existence, but as OVER AND AGAINST THE REWARD OF THE RIGHTEOUS WHICH IS LIFE WITH THE ONE WHO IS LIFE (namely Jesus), so that death is seen as a lack of life with Christ.

Sorry.

ShermanN · May 19, 2010

Der Alter said:
This has been posted in this thread several times. This argument is basically irrelevant "Hell" was a convenient word. The concept definitely appears in scripture.

Concerning the NT, in Greek Tartaroo is the closest word to equating Hell. If Hell was a reality, then scripture would threaten Tartaroo at least once for the lost, but it doesn't.

And surely, if Hell was a real threat, the Hebrew would have a word that meant such, but it doesn't. And surely the Law even more so than the NT would repeatedly warn of conscious unending torment - but it doesn't. One has to really search OT scripture to find anything that can even be interpreted as such.

To me, if Hell was a viable threat then it would be specifically warned in scripture, using words that specifically mean such, but it's not.

You are only giving part of the story. Please read the post at this link posted earlier in this thread for the facts about Gehenna in the Jewish Encyclopedia

I don't see any evidence for this. Here, from the Talmud, are the teachings of the two major Rabbinical schools, Shammai and Hillel, in Jerusalem before the time of Jesus. Both taught eternal punishment for some.

Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."

We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." p. 27

[paragraph continues] Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].
Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

If you ignore the vss. which clearly show eternal, unending punishment, in flames, called variously Gehenna, Hades, and the Lake of Fire.

Note above that in your quote I highlighted in blue where even your quote speaks of Gehenna as a means of purification for "the average person". So for most people, the average person, the Jews thought of Gehenna as a place of Remedial Punishment from which people arose to Ga Eden, Paradise, after a period of time less than 12 months. Jewish mourning for dead loved ones is built upon this understanding.

As I stated in my previous post, Gehenna speaks "primarily" of Remedial Punishment, as in Purgatory not Hell, especially for loved ones, and would thus best be interpreted as Purgatory. When Jesus speaks of Gehenna it is in this cultural context with Gehenna being primarily thought of as a means of purification.

One question to ask is, Does anything Jesus say reveal whether or not He thought of Gehenna in terms of purification? Yes, He does. In Mark 9

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
49Everyone will be salted with fire.

Note that Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, and then notes that in fact, we shall all be "salted with fire". We all have things that we'll need purification/deliverance from. None of us are perfect, not one of us.

Also notice that the passages that speak of Gehenna consistantly are based on how we actually live our lives. Judgment is based on how we actually live our lives. This is Remedial Judgment where the fire of truth burns the wickedness from our lives. Such judgment is terrible, but necessary. The first step towards deliverance is recognizing that one needs deliverance, recognizing, admitting to ourselves just how evil our attitudes and actions are. On the other hand though, thankfully salvation is wholly based on grace, hallelujah!

ShermanN · May 19, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
K, here is a thoroughly Biblical term: LAKE OF FIRE

and two passages have PEOPLE there for ETERNITY Matt 25 and Rev 14. The old "soul that sins shall die" falls because of 2 things:
1. A proper systematic that integrates all relevant verses in which the two cited above factor
2. Death is commonly a metaphor, as in Eph 2 where those who are dead are still actually LIVING and needs to be seen in its proper context, NOT as cessation of consciousness or existence, but as OVER AND AGAINST THE REWARD OF THE RIGHTEOUS WHICH IS LIFE WITH THE ONE WHO IS LIFE (namely Jesus), so that death is seen as a lack of life with Christ.

Sorry.

First note that due to it being filled with metaphorical language John's Revelation is interpretted in the church at least 4 different ways - Preteristicly (speaking to the then current terrible times of suffering in the first century), historically (revealing the rise and fall of Roman rule historically), metaphorically (as revealing the constant struggle between good and evil in our lives and in our cultures), and futuristically (revealing what is yet to come). And even if one interprets Revelation futuristically, the Lake of Fire is still metaphorical language and should be interpreted metaphorically; so let's do so.

Note that Rev.14.10 highlights that the Lake of Fire is in the "Presence of the Lamb" and the "Presence of the Angels". The Lamb speaks metaphorically of the Atonement, and the Angels speak metaphorically of the Benevolent Provision of God. Also note that Fire in scripture speaks of God, the Holy Spirit, and purification (as in baptism of fire).

Next note that the word Brimstone, theon , means "divine fire" - fire not created by man, - geological fire (volcanoes, lava, lightening). All of which have the smell of burning sulfur, and thus sulfur came to be called theon, brimstone. And it's significant to note that the Greeks burnt sulfur as insence for both "spiritual purification" and medicinally for "physical healing". And the natural hot sulfur springs were well known for their medicinal value. And of course, even today sulfur, brimstone, is the foundation of many healing drugs. Purification and healing.

When one considers these facts noted above, to me the metaphor of the lake of fire and brimstone would best be understood in terms of Remedial Judgment that brings purification and healing. The Lake of Fire and Brimstone = The Volcanic lake of the presence of God revealed in the Atonement and Benevolent provision of God that purifies and heals.

chingchang · May 19, 2010

Lulav said:
Those without faith and unbelieving will spend eternity with Satan in the Lake of Fire.

Now we know what you think...which is nice...but the Bible says that the unbelieving will be destroyed...hence 'eternal destruction'. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what will happen to the wicked. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? They were destroyed. What happened when God had enough in Noah's time...total destruction. What happened when God commanded Israel to kill its enemies...women/children/elderly/infants/ox/etc. and burn everything to the ground? Utter and complete destruction.

How about this?..

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why tell us God as the ability to destroy BOTH body and soul in hell if that is not what he intends to do?

What is left of the chaff after harvest time and it is thrown into the fire? It is destroyed...nothing left.

'Destroy'. Look it up in a dictionary...

CC

Der Alte · May 19, 2010

ShermanN said:
Concerning the NT, in Greek Tartaroo is the closest word to equating Hell. If Hell was a reality, then scripture would threaten Tartaroo at least once for the lost, but it doesn't.

And surely, if Hell was a real threat, the Hebrew would have a word that meant such, but it doesn't. And surely the Law even more so than the NT would repeatedly warn of conscious unending torment - but it doesn't. One has to really search OT scripture to find anything that can even be interpreted as such.

I notice you have ignored my post from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, which shows that for the ancient Jews Gehenna was what "Hell" is for most English speakers. Had you bothered to read the post you would have seen at least 39 scripture upon which the ancient Jews based their belief in a place of eternal punishment which they called Gehenna. Evidently there was enough warning in the O.T. for the ancient Jews.

To me, if Hell was a viable threat then it would be specifically warned in scripture, using words that specifically mean such, but it's not.

"To me," IOW based on your assumptions/presuppositions, you don't think there are enough warnings in the Bible about Hell.

Note above that in your quote I highlighted in blue where even your quote speaks of Gehenna as a means of purification for "the average person". So for most people, the average person, the Jews thought of Gehenna as a place of Remedial Punishment from which people arose to Ga Eden, Paradise, after a period of time less than 12 months. Jewish mourning for dead loved ones is built upon this understanding.

Yes, I noted that you ignored most of the post and found 1-2 sentences which you think support your argument. Where do you get that "for most people Gehenna would be a place of remedial punishment?"

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As I stated in my previous post, Gehenna speaks "primarily" of Remedial Punishment, as in Purgatory not Hell, especially for loved ones, and would thus best be interpreted as Purgatory. When Jesus speaks of Gehenna it is in this cultural context with Gehenna being primarily thought of as a means of purification.

Ignoring everything which proves you wrong! Never once does Jesus state or imply that those in Hell will be purified and released. If fact Jesus clearly states the opposite! Here are two back to back posts listing 28 passages, in the order they occur in the N.T., Jesus speaking on the fate of the unrighteous. Here! and Here! Please show me where Jesus ever stated or implied that any punishment was remedial?

One question to ask is, Does anything Jesus say reveal whether or not He thought of Gehenna in terms of purification? Yes, He does. In Mark 9

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
49Everyone will be salted with fire.

Note that Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, and then notes that in fact, we shall all be "salted with fire". We all have things that we'll need purification/deliverance from. None of us are perfect, not one of us.

As with all post 19th century false religions you are adept at posting a few out-of-context proof texts. What does Jesus mean by salted with fire, for believers?

1Co 3:11-16
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

For believers, those who have built on the foundation of Christ, their work will be tried by fire.

Also notice that the passages that speak of Gehenna consistantly are based on how we actually live our lives. Judgment is based on how we actually live our lives. This is Remedial Judgment where the fire of truth burns the wickedness from our lives. Such judgment is terrible, but necessary. The first step towards deliverance is recognizing that one needs deliverance, recognizing, admitting to ourselves just how evil our attitudes and actions are. On the other hand though, thankfully salvation is wholly based on grace, hallelujah!

Please explain to me, after having been punished for their sins, in fire, for any length of time those who die not knowing, even cursing God, how they will suddenly be all loving, accepting, and appreciative of the same God, they previously cursed and rejected? Human nature being what it is, I'm certain they will be just like rapists, robbers, murderers, etc., in this life, they blame everybody in the world but themselves, and when released from prison the overwhelming majority return to the same life of crime as before.

Yab Yum · May 20, 2010

chingchang said:
Now we know what you think...which is nice...but the Bible says that the unbelieving will be destroyed...hence 'eternal destruction'. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what will happen to the wicked. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? They were destroyed. What happened when God had enough in Noah's time...total destruction. What happened when God commanded Israel to kill its enemies...women/children/elderly/infants/ox/etc. and burn everything to the ground? Utter and complete destruction.

How about this?..

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why tell us God as the ability to destroy BOTH body and soul in hell if that is not what he intends to do?

What is left of the chaff after harvest time and it is thrown into the fire? It is destroyed...nothing left.

'Destroy'. Look it up in a dictionary...

CC

Noone disputes that God can destroy his entire creation. But will he?

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

Yab Yum said:
chingchang said:

Now we know what you think...which is nice...but the Bible says that the unbelieving will be destroyed...hence 'eternal destruction'. Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example of what will happen to the wicked. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? They were destroyed. What happened when God had enough in Noah's time...total destruction. What happened when God commanded Israel to kill its enemies...women/children/elderly/infants/ox/etc. and burn everything to the ground? Utter and complete destruction.

How about this?..

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why tell us God as the ability to destroy BOTH body and soul in hell if that is not what he intends to do?

What is left of the chaff after harvest time and it is thrown into the fire? It is destroyed...nothing left.

'Destroy'. Look it up in a dictionary...

Click to expand...

Noone disputes that God can destroy his entire creation. But will he?

Many people like to quote Matt 10:28, out-of-context trying to prove their assumptions/presuppositions about annihilation, but they cannot produce one vs. which shows God actually destroying any souls.

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

ShermanN said:
First note that due to it being filled with metaphorical language John's Revelation is interpretted in the church at least 4 different ways - Preteristicly (speaking to the then current terrible times of suffering in the first century), historically (revealing the rise and fall of Roman rule historically), metaphorically (as revealing the constant struggle between good and evil in our lives and in our cultures), and futuristically (revealing what is yet to come). And even if one interprets Revelation futuristically, the Lake of Fire is still metaphorical language and should be interpreted metaphorically; so let's do so.

Note that Rev.14.10 highlights that the Lake of Fire is in the "Presence of the Lamb" and the "Presence of the Angels". The Lamb speaks metaphorically of the Atonement, and the Angels speak metaphorically of the Benevolent Provision of God.[ . . . ]

This is a common ploy used by virtually all false religious groups which came into existence in, or after, the late 19th century, e.g. JW, LDS, OP, UU, MJ, kristadelfian, etc., when ever scripture as written contradicts their teachings then it is dismissed as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative. There is a maxim of Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." The fact that some scripture can be shown to be figurative, is not license to willy-nilly call anything and everything figurative.

[ . . . ]Also note that Fire in scripture speaks of God, the Holy Spirit, and purification (as in baptism of fire).

Next note that the word Brimstone, theon , means "divine fire" - fire not created by man, - geological fire (volcanoes, lava, lightening). All of which have the smell of burning sulfur, and thus sulfur came to be called theon, brimstone. And it's significant to note that the Greeks burnt sulfur as insence for both "spiritual purification" and medicinally for "physical healing". And the natural hot sulfur springs were well known for their medicinal value. And of course, even today sulfur, brimstone, is the foundation of many healing drugs. Purification and healing.

The fact is that sulphur was named Theon, by pre-Christain pagan Greeks because they "thought" it had some properties of "Theos", such as purification and healing. But modern science has shown sulphur has no such properties. Sulphur is used primarily as a fungicide and pesticide. Its only current medical use,

Traditional medical role for elemental sulfur

In traditional medical skin treatment which predates modern era of scientific medicine, elemental sulfur has been used mainly as part of creams to alleviate various conditions such as psoriasis, eczema and acne. The mechanism of action is not known, although elemental sulfur does oxidize slowly to sulfurous acid, which in turn (through the action of sulfite) acts as a mild reducing and antibacterial agent.

Despite what the ancient Greeks thought sulphur has no purification and healing properties.

When one considers these facts noted above, to me the metaphor of the lake of fire and brimstone would best be understood in terms of Remedial Judgment that brings purification and healing. The Lake of Fire and Brimstone = The Volcanic lake of the presence of God revealed in the Atonement and Benevolent provision of God that purifies and heals.

When one makes up "facts" or repeats such made up "facts" from other sources it is possible to come to all kinds of wrong conclusions.

The Penitent Man · May 20, 2010

Do you believe in an eternal heaven?

chingchang · May 20, 2010

Yab Yum said:
Noone disputes that God can destroy his entire creation. But will he?

If we use the OT to learn about the God we worship...and how he operates...then YES! HE absolutely will destroy souls in hell. Why would he not? If the parable of the wheat and chaff tells us anything about God...then YES! He absolutely will destroy souls in hell. If you go back and study the history of the false doctrine of an eternal torture in hell you will see the obvious...it is a Catholic invention for the purpose of motivating "conversion"...which means more money to Rome.

Sad but true.

CC

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

chingchang said:
If we use the OT to learn about the God we worship...and how he operates...then YES! HE absolutely will destroy souls in hell. Why would he not? If the parable of the wheat and chaff tells us anything about God...then YES! He absolutely will destroy souls in hell. If you go back and study the history of the false doctrine of an eternal torture in hell you will see the obvious...it is a Catholic invention for the purpose of motivating "conversion"...which means more money to Rome.

Sad but true.

CC

Sad but true many people just believe and repeat whatever lies they are told by their leaders such as "the false doctrine of an eternal torture in hell [ . . . ] is a Catholic invention for the purpose of motivating "conversion"...which means more money to Rome." We know that is a lie because the Jews believed in such a place over 2000 years before there was a "Roman Catholic Church."

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA

Der Alte · May 20, 2010

ShermanN said:
[ . . . ]As I stated in my previous post, Gehenna speaks "primarily" of Remedial Punishment, as in Purgatory not Hell, especially for loved ones, and would thus best be interpreted as Purgatory. When Jesus speaks of Gehenna it is in this cultural context with Gehenna being primarily thought of as a means of purification.

One question to ask is, Does anything Jesus say reveal whether or not He thought of Gehenna in terms of purification? Yes, He does. In Mark 9
[ . . . ]
Note that Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, and then notes that in fact, we shall all be "salted with fire". We all have things that we'll need purification/deliverance from. None of us are perfect, not one of us.[ . . . ]

Bumping up these two posts because I doubt very seriously that you will read them otherwise. Some of us have studied this for ourselves, and when studied systematically we find the Biblical truth that the unrighteous will be punished eternally in a place of God's choosing, whatever name you choose to call it.

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Passages list, Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.[/b

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].
In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. cursed.

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will Gods unchanging word, Jesus, still say, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Continued in next post)

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