Let's Talk About Hell (6)

he-man said:

I would not want to be in the grave with him because he was dead as a doornail until after the 3rd day when he made that remark,,,,,,

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funny remark for a dead as a doornail guy

gradyll said:

none of the well repected translations agree with you, nor have home in there twice. Only in the end.

secondly, home is mentioned else where no need to mention it here.

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I don't know about "need," I'm translating what the Greek says, and (like Timothew) recognising the two related words. Let's look at some commentaries by experts, shall we:

Paul Barnett, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians (Eerdmans, 1997, p.271) has "away from home, out of the body" so as to be "at home, with the Lord."

Murray J. Harris, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians: A Commentary on the Greek Text (Eerdmans, 2005, p. 399ff) notes the "away from home"/"at home" meaning, but prefers to translate: We are confident, I repeat, and prefer to depart from this body and take up residence with the Lord. (taking the aorists as ingressive)

Jan Lambrecht and Daniel J. Harrington, Second Corinthians (Liturgical Press, 2006, p. 85) render the ingressive aorists as "go away from the body and get home to the Lord," but highlight the wordplay with "at home or away from home" in verse 9 (where the same pair of verbs is used as present participles).

In terms of translations, the 1984 NIV manages to capture the "at home/away from home" wordplay between the two verses: We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Now all those translations are better than mine, but they all incorporate the same "at home/away from home" idea which Timothew had.

Timothew said:

Perhaps it could read: But we are of good courage preferring to be out of our city, out of this body, and in the city before the Lord.

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I can't find a single expert who brings cities into it. I think the noun refers more to country regions than to cities. See Wikipedia on demes.

Radagast said:

I can't find a single expert who brings cities into it. I think the noun refers more to country regions than to cities. See Wikipedia on demes.

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Well my preference was for "at home/away from home" like the rest of the experts say. But there are some who think this is mock-worthy. So, okay I can look at the greek word and see "at the demos/away from the demos". I think of ancient greece as a collection of "city-states" or demes. "A deme functioned to some degree as a polis in miniature, and indeed some demes, such as Eleusis and Acharnae, were in fact significant towns." There were no "greeks", there were citizens of Athens, Sparta, etc.

Since the demos is the ruling area, I said "city". Perhaps I should have said "township", but that would be an anachronism. At any rate, the meaning of the greek text is the greek, and not anyone's translation. I do better if I just ignore anything that gradyll or dollarsbill says. Have you seen the section on the Demos in the textbook Athenaze?

gradyll said:

home isn't in the greek either place. but can be implied (sort of) in the second instance.

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2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be to be away from the body also to be indigenous with regard to the Lord.
Parsing the word εκ "out of" and δοκουμεν "I think well" εκδημησαι εκδημεω to be away (abroad)
A. to be abroad, to be on one's travels, Hdt.1.30, S.OT114, etc.; to be in exile, Pl.Lg.864e; “εἰς πόλιν” PPetr.3p.76.
II. c. acc., travel through, “δύσιν καὶ ἀνατολήν” IG14.905.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon.

ενδημουντες ενδημησαι be endemic adj. native, local, indigenous
A. live at or in a place, Lys.9.5, IG12(5).534.6 (Ceos, ii B. C.); simply, stay, remain in a place, “μέχρις ἂν ἐνδημῶσιν οἱ πρέσβεις” Aen.Tact.10.11; ἐνδημῶν καὶ ἀποδημῶν Mitteis Chr.284.3 (ii B. C.), etc.: metaph., “ὁ θεὸς ἐνδεδήμηκεν εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ψυχήν” Charito6.3; ἐ. ἐν τῷ σώματι, πρὸς τὸν Κύριον, 2 Ep.Cor.5.6,8.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon

he-man said:

2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be to be away from the body also to be indigenous with regard to the Lord.
Parsing the word εκ "out of" and δοκουμεν "I think well" εκδημησαι εκδημεω to be away (abroad)
A. to be abroad, to be on one's travels, Hdt.1.30, S.OT114, etc.; to be in exile, Pl.Lg.864e; “εἰς πόλιν” PPetr.3p.76.
II. c. acc., travel through, “δύσιν καὶ ἀνατολήν” IG14.905.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon.

ενδημουντες ενδημησαι be endemic adj. native, local, indigenous
A. live at or in a place, Lys.9.5, IG12(5).534.6 (Ceos, ii B. C.); simply, stay, remain in a place, “μέχρις ἂν ἐνδημῶσιν οἱ πρέσβεις” Aen.Tact.10.11; ἐνδημῶν καὶ ἀποδημῶν Mitteis Chr.284.3 (ii B. C.), etc.: metaph., “ὁ θεὸς ἐνδεδήμηκεν εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ψυχήν” Charito6.3; ἐ. ἐν τῷ σώματι, πρὸς τὸν Κύριον, 2 Ep.Cor.5.6,8.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon

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right, it's not home that is being spoken of but locality.

Timothew said:

I think of ancient greece as a collection of "city-states" or demes. "A deme functioned to some degree as a polis in miniature, and indeed some demes, such as Eleusis and Acharnae, were in fact significant towns."

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But a demos wasn't a "ruling area," but one of many regions, villages, or neighbourhoods (including neighbourhoods within the city).

Timothew said:

I do better if I just ignore anything that gradyll or dollarsbill says.

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Perhaps. I suspect you know more Greek than they do.

Timothew said:

Have you seen the section on the Demos in the textbook Athenaze?

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No, sorry.

Radagast said:

I don't know about "need," I'm translating what the Greek says, and (like Timothew) recognising the two related words. Let's look at some commentaries by experts, shall we:

Paul Barnett, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians (Eerdmans, 1997, p.271) has "away from home, out of the body" so as to be "at home, with the Lord."

Murray J. Harris, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians: A Commentary on the Greek Text (Eerdmans, 2005, p. 399ff) notes the "away from home"/"at home" meaning, but prefers to translate: We are confident, I repeat, and prefer to depart from this body and take up residence with the Lord. (taking the aorists as ingressive)

Jan Lambrecht and Daniel J. Harrington, Second Corinthians (Liturgical Press, 2006, p. 85) render the ingressive aorists as "go away from the body and get home to the Lord," but highlight the wordplay with "at home or away from home" in verse 9 (where the same pair of verbs is used as present participles).

In terms of translations, the 1984 NIV manages to capture the "at home/away from home" wordplay between the two verses: We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Now all those translations are better than mine, but they all incorporate the same "at home/away from home" idea which Timothew had.

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not seminary level commentaries sorry, plus many commentaries are working off of the NIV which is a very liberal translation.

are those NIV commentaries?

gradyll said:

right, it's not home that is being spoken of but locality.

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Home locality. Which is why just about every translation has "at home with the Lord."

gradyll said:

not seminary level commentaries sorry

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What, Harris? You're kidding, right?

gradyll said:

plus many commentaries are working off of the NIV which is a very liberal translation.

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Again, you must be kidding. And no, those are not "NIV commentaries."

Radagast said:

Home locality. Which is why just about every translation has "at home with the Lord."

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thats right, many versions have home at that spot, but not every version. Hemans did not have home in it at all. timothews had home in it twice. Youngs literal has it twice, ESV has it once, KJV doesn't have it at all. Nasb has it once. So it's okay to say it is in it once. However remember it's actually not there in the greek AND the word for home is a DIFFERENT greek word. This greek word is used a few verses later. So the literal translations from the byzantine text seem to be the most literal in this occasion (as in most). Sorry to rain on your parade there.

Radagast said:

What, Harris? You're kidding, right?



Again, you must be kidding. And no, those are not "NIV commentaries."

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harris does seem to be popular.

but he supports the literal translations not the liberal translations

"We are confident, I repeat, and prefer to depart from this body and take up residence with the Lord. (taking the aorists as ingressive)"

no "home" there just "take up residence"

James 2:26& Revelations 6:9-11 also speak of the soul being without the body.

Radagast said:

Home locality. Which is why just about every translation has "at home with the Lord."

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it's not a big difference either way, the point is that when we die, we are at home, or present with Jesus.

other verses speaking of disembodied spirits/souls
Ja +*2:26. Re *6:9-11.

gradyll said:

it's not a big difference either way, the point is that when we die, we are at home, or present with Jesus.

other verses speaking of disembodied spirits/souls
Ja +*2:26. Re *6:9-11.

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Correction, when we die we are in the grave awaiting the resurrection, which is where all souls go and the spirit, which is the breath of Life, returns to God, who gave it until, and IF, He chooses to restore it.

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.
38 And the curtain of the temple was split in two, from above to below.
39 But the centurion, who stood opposite before him just as he breathed out, seeing that, said, "Truly this Man was the Son of God!"

Those who die believing in Christ are asleep waiting to be awakened, just as Abraham and all the others are asleep[in bosom].
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

he-man said:

Correction, when we die we are in the grave awaiting the resurrection, which is where all souls go and the spirit, which is the breath of Life, returns to God, who gave it until, and IF, He chooses to restore it.

Mr 15:37 And letting go in a great voice, Jesus breathed out.
38 And the curtain of the temple was split in two, from above to below.
39 But the centurion, who stood opposite before him just as he breathed out, seeing that, said, "Truly this Man was the Son of God!"

Those who die believing in Christ are asleep waiting to be awakened, just as Abraham and all the others are asleep[in bosom].
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

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Your verses speak of the death of the Body not the soul, there is not a single verse that speaks of the death of the soul.

The rest of your post you deal with soul sleep, which is a common misconception:

Soul Sleep problems
Problem Verses

There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead.

Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32 – Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31 – Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43 – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 – Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 – Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23 – Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11 – The souls of the dead are crying out to God.

Problem Definitions

Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.

Death does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

Body is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

Sleep never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.


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Norman Geisler....

GENESIS 2:7—Does this verse prove that human beings do not have a soul that survives death?

MISINTERPRETATION: Jehovah’s Witnesses cite this verse to prove that man does not have a soul that is distinct from the body. “Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys” (Mankind’s Search for God, 1990, 125). Hence, people are souls in the sense that they are living beings, not in the sense that they have an immaterial nature that survives death.

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: In Genesis 2:7 the Hebrew word for “soul” (nephesh) means “living being.” However, this Hebrew word is a rich one, carrying various nuances of meaning in different contexts. A fundamental mistake beginning Hebrew and Greek students sometimes make is to assume that, if a Hebrew or Greek word is used in a particular way in one verse, it must mean the same thing in all its other uses. But this is simply wrong. The fact is, Hebrew and Greek words can have different nuances of meaning in different contexts. The word nephesh is an example. While the word means “living being” in Genesis 2:7, the word refers to a soul or spirit as distinct from the body in Genesis 35:18.
Moreover, when we examine what the whole of Scripture teaches about the soul, it is clear that the Watchtower Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses) position is wrong. For example, Revelation 6:9–10 refers to disembodied souls under God’s altar (it would be nonsense to interpret the reference to “soul” in this verse as “living being”—“I saw underneath the altar the living beings of those who had been slain”). First Thessalonians 4:13–17 says Christ will bring with him the souls and spirits of those who are now with him in heaven and will reunite their spirits to resurrection bodies. In Philippians 1:21–23 Paul says it’s better to depart and be with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:6–8 Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. Clearly, the whole of Scripture teaches that each person has a soul that survives death.

Geisler, Norman L. ; Rhodes, Ron: When Cultists Ask : A Popular Handbook on Cultic Misinterpretations. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Books, 1997, S. 23
__________________

gradyll said:

harris does seem to be popular.

but he supports the literal translations not the liberal translations

"We are confident, I repeat, and prefer to depart from this body and take up residence with the Lord. (taking the aorists as ingressive)"

no "home" there just "take up residence"

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Read what Harris says, if you don't trust my paraphrase above. He says both verbs refer to "home." The second, he says, means "take up residence with" or "make our home with," while the first refers to leaving home or being exiled from home.

Harris also notes that the verbs are an antithetical pair, which Timothew's and my translation were highlighting.

In addition, Harris has a good discussion of the doctrinal implications of the verse.

And what's this nonsense about "liberal" translations? The NIV is not a "liberal" translation.

Radagast said:

Read what Harris says, if you don't trust my paraphrase above. He says both verbs refer to "home." The second, he says, means "take up residence with" or "make our home with," while the first refers to leaving home or being exiled from home.

Harris also notes that the verbs are an antithetical pair, which Timothew's and my translation were highlighting.

In addition, Harris has a good discussion of the doctrinal implications of the verse.

And what's this nonsense about "liberal" translations? The NIV is not a "liberal" translation.

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thats fine that He interprets the verse that way, at least he has the sense to translate accurately.

NIV comes from a two greek texts that very over 30,000 times with each other in the gospels alone. Not to mention dynamic equivelent is a liberal method!

The New International Version (NIV) is a completely original translation of the Bible developed by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
The initial vision for the project was provided by a single individual – an engineer working with General Electric in Seattle by the name of Howard Long. Long was a lifelong devotee of the King James Version, but when he shared it with his friends he was distressed to find that it just didn’t connect. Long saw the need for a translation that captured the truths he loved in the language that his contemporaries spoke.
For 10 years, Long and a growing group of like-minded supporters drove this idea. The passion of one man became the passion of a church, and ultimately the passion of a whole group of denominations. And finally, in 1965, after several years of preparatory study, a trans-denominational and international group of scholars met in Palos Heights, Illinois, and agreed to begin work on the project – determining to not simply adapt an existing English version of the Bible but to start from scratch with the best available manuscripts in the original languages. Their conclusion was endorsed by a large number of church leaders who met in Chicago in 1966.
A self-governing body of fifteen biblical scholars, the Committee on Bible Translation (CBT) was formed and charged with responsibility for the version, and in 1968 the New York Bible Society (which subsequently became the International Bible Society and then Biblica) generously undertook the financial sponsorship of the project. The translation of each book was assigned to translation teams, each made up of two lead translators, two translation consultants, and a stylistic consultant where necessary. The initial translations produced by these teams were carefully scrutinized and revised by intermediate editorial committees of five biblical scholars to check them against the source texts and assess them for comprehensibility. Each edited text was then submitted to a general committee of eight to twelve members before being distributed to selected outside critics and to all members of the CBT in preparation for a final review. Samples of the translation were tested for clarity and ease of reading with pastors, students, scholars, and lay people across the full breadth of the intended audience. Perhaps no other translation has undergone a more thorough process of review and revision. From the very start, the NIV sought to bring modern Bible readers as close as possible to the experience of the very first Bible readers: providing the best possible blend of transparency to the original documents and comprehension of the original meaning in every verse.

gradyll said:

Your verses speak of the death of the Body not the soul, there is not a single verse that speaks of the death of the soul.

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The soul is the body. The Spirit is not the body, the Spirit is the "BREATH of Life" which returns to God for the awakening when and if He so desires.

gradyll said:

The rest of your post you deal with soul sleep, which is a common misconception:
There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

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Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help my nephesh
had almost dwelt in silence.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

gradyll said:

Luke 23:43 – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

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Jesus was dead in the grave for 3 days so you think paradise is Hell?

gradyll said:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

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2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be away from the body also is to be indigenous with regard to the Lord.

he-man said:

The soul is the body. The Spirit is not the body, the Spirit is the "BREATH of Life" which returns to God for the awakening when and if He so desires.

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the soul is not the body, what about the souls under the altar that have been martyred for the cause of Christ in revelation?

revelation 6:9-11

Psa 31:17

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Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help my nephesh
had almost dwelt in silence.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

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so we have a contradiction, I just gave you ten verses or so.

Jesus was dead in the grave for 3 days so you think paradise is Hell?

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both were there separated by a abyss. the abyss is where satan is bound for a thousand years

2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be away from the body also is to be indigenous with regard to the Lord.

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[/QUOTE]still says if we are absent from the body in some form, and present with the lord in some form. So it doesn't matter both ways say the soul is not in locality (home) with the body and in locality (home) with Christ.