Let's talk about fat.

Yes, there might be some loose skin - I have some as well, but it's worth it for the loss.

On a social level, I think there are a few things to look at. Socially, it's not okay to be overweight and thin people have no problem judging those who are heavy. People who are heavy want two things: they want acceptance, and many want to lose weight (typically). So do we stay heavy and fight for equal social treatment, or do we lose the weight and get the "congrats" from the skinny crowd - then hope to God we never gain it back.

ValleyGal said:

Yes, there might be some loose skin - I have some as well, but it's worth it for the loss.

On a social level, I think there are a few things to look at. Socially, it's not okay to be overweight and thin people have no problem judging those who are heavy. People who are heavy want two things: they want acceptance, and many want to lose weight (typically). So do we stay heavy and fight for equal social treatment, or do we lose the weight and get the "congrats" from the skinny crowd - then hope to God we never gain it back.

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But that's not true.

It's more accurate to say that people judge those that are heavier than they are.

110 lb people look at 200 lb people and go "how could they let themselves go that badly?"

200 lb people look at 300 lb people and go "How could they let themselves go that badly?"

300 lb people look at 600 lb people and go "what the heck? How could they let themselves go that badly?"

...

...and that's the point. There is no "thin" - there is no "fat". There's simply "fatter than me" - and by that standard - everyone behaves about the same way.

EZoo, I think they slam women about their weight because they know that's a sensitive issue for the woman, not because the men are not attracted to it. That's what people do - they slam each other where they are vulnerable. I know my husband's sensitive buttons, and if I wanted to hurt him, I'd know where to push, whether it's something I'm attracted to or not. That's what the men do to heavy women....they don't attack them with weight because they are not attracted, but because they know it's where she's vulnerable....and men like that do not deserve these BBWs - or anyone until they get their head and heart screwed on straight and can treat people respectfully.

EZoolander said:

But that's not true.

It's more accurate to say that people judge those that are heavier than they are.

110 lb people look at 200 lb people and go "how could they let themselves go that badly?"

200 lb people look at 300 lb people and go "How could they let themselves go that badly?"

300 lb people look at 600 lb people and go "what the heck? How could they let themselves go that badly?"

...

...and that's the point. There is no "thin" - there is no "fat". There's simply "fatter than me" - and by that standard - everyone behaves about the same way.

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Good point, but that would mean there is no one at all ever who would accept or not judge a morbidly obese person because they are the heaviest. And there would be no one for the heaviest person to judge. Yet even I will judge someone for being too thin. But I will absolutely not judge someone who has gotten heavy...at least not since I started having the weight struggle myself. My heart aches for those who are heavier than I am, but believe me, I know how they got there.....

ETA, I've been thinking about this....and it would actually suggest to me that people in general simply have critical hearts when it comes to appearance. If the thin person criticizes a heavier person, it is likely about their own insecurity/fear of "becoming like them." For a heavier person judging someone who is even heavier, same thing....it's their own issue they are judging, but projecting it onto someone else who has it worse.

For a thin person, chances are they look at other thin people and find something about them to judge. It's likely a way for all of us to accommodate our own insecurity of our own appearance. I read an interview from Shania Twain where she said she did not like what her legs looked like. Meanwhile I'm thinking she better never see MY legs or she'd be totally grossed beyond belief! People will always find something about their own body and about others' bodies that they are not happy with or would change. But the truth is, some people simply have it easier than others in the appearance department - including weight. Some of us struggle terribly and can't even think about eating rum balls at Christmas or a milkshake in the summer without gaining 10 lbs. Others can eat and exercise to their hearts' content and never gain an ounce, even while being a couch potato.

You can't judge health by weight.

I agree on the point about the heaviest person around. It sucks to be them. Everyone looks at them with disdain, and there's nobody for them to look upon with disdain. Sucks to be at the end of that spectrum.

Having your heart ache for them is great and shows compassion... But let's say you were unmarried - and single. Would you long for the physical affections of a 600 lb man? Would you want to see that naked?

That's what we're talking about. It's not a compassion issue. It's an issue of wanting to be desired. People want that. People crave that. People wish they had that. Life is more fulfilling if that's a part of your reality - or at least a good possibility.

...and that's what they're denied.

To advise them about how they're fighting the good fight against the superficiality of the world (which is just nonsense anyhow) - puts them in a bad place. Let them be whole. Let them experience everything. In the end - they'll be happier.

Tbh, when I was 100 lbs overweight, I was single and I desired love....and if I found that with a 600 lb man, so be it, even if it meant sexual issues because of it. My husband and I both put weight on since getting married, and he is just as attractive to me today as he was when we got married. I see him naked every day, and I appreciate his body. His weight does not affect my desire for him, or either of our need to be loved and to love.

It is true that I would have a harder time with someone who was so heavy he could not get out of the house and enjoy life. I like to be out in the community sometimes and I want my husband to participate in my life outside our home. But if he ever became so heavy or otherwise incapable, I would adapt to that....but if he became so heavy that he could not leave the house, I'd have to figure out whether there was something within me that was contributing to weight gain. Like I said, if you love someone, you will come alongside them as an ally, not beat them up with the fact they're heavy, but rather encourage them to walk with me, etc....stay active enough that the weight won't go so far as to prevent them leaving the home.

Ah, in the end they'll be happier.....how so? Happiness according to who? Happiness for you might be different than it is for a 600 lb person. Happiness for the 600 lb person might simply be one day on this earth without feeling the rest of the world judging them. It might be one good friend who will not desert them if they put on another 50 lbs. It might be losing 100 lbs or it might be losing 500 lbs. But you can't tell them what will make them happier.

What puts them in a bad place is hearing others judge, friends and loved ones deserting them, rejection after rejection based on nothing more than weight, having to pay for two airline seats rather than one, not being able to enjoy the theatre and having to order special clothes that can only be secured with velcro at the back rather than button down the front. What puts them in a bad place is being told they are not welcome in the world or community, and the perceptions that go along with that (like the one brought up earlier that heavy people are not intelligent).

Sometimes happiness is being told that they are fighting the good fight against superficiality - if it's the truth - because the truth is, we are superficial except when we find attractive people who are "normal" weight to get deep with. But when you do, those normal people's vulnerabilities come out too....the only difference is that heavy people don't hide their vulnerability; thin people can, and most do.

Heavy people are only denied romantic love because of the social construction of obesity.

I think you're mixing up issues and conflating things that ought not be lumped together. There is a huge difference between the loyalty between loving spouses that you're talking about - and what a person can expect when they're just another random face on the street. That is what we're talking about.

When an obese person bemoans lack of interest from others - he/she is saying that random people don't want them...so using the loyalty you have to your husband and willingness to stick with him whatever change may come isn't the same thing. To use that as an example to lead someone to believe he/she will receive that level of acceptance as a random is misleading and wrong IMHO.

Rather - what they'll experience is... "compassion/friend - sure. Lover - I'll keep waiting"

...and I'm not telling them what will make them happier. They're telling me. They want to be accepted. They want to be wanted. They want those normal things. I'm simply saying you ain't gonna get those things (as a random) if you remain obese.

Which, then, is worth more to you?

EZoolander said:

...and I'm not telling them what will make them happier. They're telling me. They want to be accepted. They want to be wanted. They want those normal things. I'm simply saying you ain't gonna get those things (as a random) if you remain obese.

Which, then, is worth more to you?

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When I struggled with being heavier when I was single, I would have dated an obese man. So it is not that they can't find love. They absolutely can, especially if they are working towards relational health.

You are saying no one is accepted as a lover because they are heavy. But I'm simply saying that single people who are obese absolutely can find love and they can be accepted, and they can be wanted....yes, you can get those things if you are obese. You might not get them from skinny judgemental people, but you can get them from others who struggle as well.

ValleyGal said:

When I struggled with being heavier when I was single, I would have dated an obese man. So it is not that they can't find love. They absolutely can, especially if they are working towards relational health.

You are saying no one is accepted as a lover because they are heavy. But I'm simply saying that single people who are obese absolutely can find love and they can be accepted, and they can be wanted....yes, you can get those things if you are obese. You might not get them from skinny judgemental people, but you can get them from others who struggle as well.

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Until you can find me the person who doesn't look at "fatter" people and think "what the hell" - I don't believe that.

I stick with my contention that everyone is exactly the same with their biases - the only difference being the position they come from. Everyone understands people up to about the level of fatness they are - and everyone holds in disdain people that are "fatter" - with the amount of disdain being proportionate to the amount of weight talked about.

Like I said - a 300 lb person feels EXACTLY the same way about a 600 lb person that a 100 lb person feels about them. The only difference is relative position. So - in a sense - it's all hypocritical. People want people to accept obesity - about up to where they are. After that - they completely understand the biases other people have.

I do think that's how the world works. Even you said that was fundamentally true...lol

...and realizing that is actually a great liberator. It's not some great big unfair social construct. It's just how people are. Just don't be the fattest one running around. Look around the room. If you're the fattest one in there - you've got some work to do unless you're prepared for the consequences of that role.

No. I told you before that when I was single and overweight, I would have dated a single and overweight guy. It did not matter to me if he was 100 lbs overweight or 300 lbs overweight.

Btw, I never said it was "fundamentally true." What I did say is that they were good points. But certainly not fundamentally or universally true, since I do not fit into that box and not everyone does. But even if were fundamentally true, it means that a 600 lb woman could certainly find a 600 lb man. It also does not account for the thin men who really prefer a "curvaceous" woman. Believe me, they are out there....

Ehhh - I guess we just have differing perspectives on reality...lol

When I see a really obese guy - unless he was already married - he's single and he ain't getting any love. That's the simple fact of the matter. Going back to my story about the guy I knew that was 450 lbs - he's single to this day - and apart from the failed $1200 forray to a brothel based solely out of 30+ years of frustration (and the subsequent medical bills) he's never had a woman willing to have him touch her. He still has yet to get a "normal" date.

...and he's a nice guy.

Nobody is banging down his door...and nobody will be. He would be wise to accept my point of view...and I'd venture to say would be "happier" if he did.

But maybe - sure - keep fighting the "good fight" - envisioning himself as some sort of modern day Martin Luther King - and hoping that some day before he's 50 he'll find the mythical someone that wants to see him naked.

EZoolander said:

For example - I knew a guy that was like 450 lbs. Poor schmo was a social pariah on most levels...women wouldn't go out with him...etc. Sure he had his friends, but what real consolation is that when you know that every relationship in your life is predestined to be nothing but platonic?

So finally this poor guy at around 35 or so decided he wanted to finally lose his virginity - and he went off to the only place he could - some brothel out in Vegas. Well, without meaning to get too much into detail, things didn't work cuz he was nervous (I guess), the girl tried too hard out of frustration (I guess), and ended up injuring the guy. He spent the next day in the hospital getting some things attended to.

That guy's entire situation was a consequence of his weight... He was a virgin because of his weight. He was in the hospital as a consequence of his weight. Everyone knew it - but nobody would say anything to him. Instead - my friends offered him platitudes about how people were "so superficial" and "someday he'd find someone that recognized his inner beauty" blah blah. Ya know - they said all the things that we accept that we're supposed to say - even though we know it ain't in the slightest bit true.

I remember talking to one of my other buddies right after the hospital incident and asking "Do you really believe the nonsense that's spilling out of your mouth about how he'll find someone, someday, that looks past it?" His response was "Maybe he'll find a fat girl" (in other words - someone that's in no place to judge and therefore will settle). Then I asked "So you don't believe it, and you're not being honest?"

"It's not my job to be honest with him. It's my job to make him feel better."

...and that - I think - is the underlying problem. NOBODY is honest. Rather - everyone walks around playing these weird games about trying to obfuscate the issue in order to be "nice" - because not being "nice" is the ultimate sin.


So - yeah - it's a pretty messed up situation IMHO for fat people. Their friends mis-represent the world to them, tell them that the only thing that might motivate them is actually "selling out", send them off to fight battles we know they're not going to win (because it makes us feel good about ourselves to do so), and confuse them with vague nonsense about the concept of being "fat" in and of itself.

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First of all.......good to "see" you Ezoo

Now......would you have been willing to "fight the fight" with this friend in order to walk alongside him as he battled to lose weight? I ask that, because (like I've said earlier) it's often more than just "eating less" or "eating more sensibly". There are often changes that have been made that need to be reversed first (in order for the weight to come off). Until those issues are discovered (and remedied)......all the efforts will be in vain (and that's where a person hits the wall and sort of has to either accept where they are or die in despair). That may be where your friend has landed----he may believe he's tried what everyone has suggested, and it never "worked".

Unless a person is going to be a part of the solution (when the person *wants* a solution----like anything else)......I don't believe they have a right to "bare the truth" and try to change that person's perception.

What irritates me is that even medical professionals that should be a part of the solution (not all...but it is an overwhelming problem) don't have the nutritional knowledge to help (I'm not talking about just food nutrition....but hormonal....food sensitivities.....etc). It's just not what the focus is in medical school. Food isn't perceived as medicine (or how powerfully it can alter our bodies). That's why I wrote earlier that if a person gets the *right* information for them, they can be held responsible for their choices---often that's not the case.

A dear friend recently told me about a book by J.J. Virgin about 7 common foods that cause sensitivities. A lot of people don't even realize that what they're experiencing as weight gain has to do with specific foods (and a lot of them hide as what we see as "healthy" foods--like soy, corn, nuts).

I've dated men who were skinny toothpicks and men who were morbidly obese. I've always been a chunky girl. My husband is a big guy, has lost a lot of weight, wants to lose more, and since he's in his late 40's, he's got the saggy, baggy skin thing going on. I couldn't care LESS. He's the only man I want and desire. My plump self with my stretch marks and cellulite is the only woman he wants and desires. And it isn't because we have some kind of "fat person" fetish for each other lol. We fell in love with each others' souls. The body is just what carries those souls, and we appreciate and find beauty and sexiness in them because we love each other first and foremost, and because we choose to. Saying that people somehow cannot be sexually attracted to someone, or feel attractive, because they're overweight or have flab or stretch marks or what-have-you, is nonsense. I think people can make a conscious choice about how hung up to be on looks, or not to be, at least to a large extent that most people won't admit to simply because they're too selfish to try.

mkgal1 said:

First of all.......good to "see" you Ezoo

Now......would you have been willing to "fight the fight" with this friend in order to walk alongside him as he battled to lose weight? I ask that, because (like I've said earlier) it's often more than just "eating less" or "eating more sensibly". There are often changes that have been made that need to be reversed first (in order for the weight to come off). Until those issues are discovered (and remedied)......all the efforts will be in vain (and that's where a person hits the wall and sort of has to either accept where they are or die in despair). That may be where your friend has landed----he may believe he's tried what everyone has suggested, and it never "worked".

Unless a person is going to be a part of the solution (when the person *wants* a solution----like anything else)......I don't believe they have a right to "bare the truth" and try to change that person's perception.

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Absolutely - but with caveats. I'm not going to be a trainer, I'm not going to be a coach and I'm not going to be any sort of accountability partner. I'm not going to track the miles he's walked - and I'm not going to prod him to do an "extra" or "see if he has one more in him." In my worldview - everything needs to come from him.

However, if he wants a friend, a person to go along, to talk to, etc...all throughout the process...by all means. I would make time for him.

What irritates me is that even medical professionals that should be a part of the solution (not all...but it is an overwhelming problem) don't have the nutritional knowledge to help (I'm not talking about just food nutrition....but hormonal....food sensitivities.....etc). It's just not what the focus is in medical school. Food isn't perceived as medicine (or how powerfully it can alter our bodies). That's why I wrote earlier that if a person gets the *right* information for them, they can be held responsible for their choices---often that's not the case.

A dear friend recently told me about a book by J.J. Virgin about 7 common foods that cause sensitivities. A lot of people don't even realize that what they're experiencing as weight gain has to do with specific foods.

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To be honest, though, we have a pretty distorted perspective of what "food" actually is. We seem to think that "food" is anything that won't poison us immediately as it passes into our gut.

I would venture to say there are very few people who would get morbidly obese eating a diet consisting of nothing but fruits, vegetables and sparing lean meats.

and "hey!" - good to see you, too

Inkachu said:

Saying that people somehow cannot be sexually attracted to someone, or feel attractive, because they're overweight or have flab or stretch marks or what-have-you, is nonsense.

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Don't get me wrong - that's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that there's a discernible pattern you see in life - and that it's foolish to ignore it. People relate to that which best approximates where they are - and where they would like to be. People have a hard time understanding/respecting others that are drastically outside of their own realm.

Everyone knows the level of work required to be where they are - and everyone knows the level of sloth that got them to that place as well. Everyone to a degree is insecure about themselves. Everyone wishes they maybe had done more - or could be just a bit better.

With that in mind - when they see others that are drastically out of line with them - their natural reaction is "whoa - how the hell did they let THAT happen."

That's why you'll see people you consider to be overweight/fat watching REALLY fat people on Jerry Springer and going "whoa - how'd they let themselves go THAT badly?" That's generally how it works. Everything is a sliding scale - with everyone using themselves as the emotional mean. Everyone thinks they're somewhere near the "norm" - and judges everyone else according to that bar.

Therefore - there really is no "thin" or "fat" in society. Instead there's just the individual reactions of "fatter or thinner than me". As a result - it's best socially to be somewhere near the mean. Look around. If you're more fit than most you see - you're doing well in that realm. If you're fatter than most you see - you've got problems.

The fewer you see around your size - the more distant you will find people - and the more likely you are to receive the dreaded "friend" speeches.

That's just how I think the world works.

(((Ezoo)))

That was all.

(((hetta!)))

LOL......I love being a witness to those exchanges (the last two).