LDS LDS---YIKES!

He is the way · Sep 3, 2019

mmksparbud said:
It is you who does not understand the bible! But then, it is not your primary source of knowledge about God. Perhaps, just for one minute you could lay down the science fiction and read the actual, real bible without your preconceived false ideas of what it says you would understand the gospel better.
Act_20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Yes I do understand the Bible and the grace of God. Just because we are under grace, (the atonement) does not mean that we can sin:
(New Testament | Romans 6:12 - 16)

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ?

(New Testament | John 14:12)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What about those who return to sin?

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

ALL of this is Biblical.

dzheremi · Sep 3, 2019

Did you mean your reply as a response to mine, twin.spin? Because just in case it is not clear, I agree with what you have written; that's why I wrote to our Mormon friend that it would be better to go with John 3:16 as an encapsulation of the gospel than to extract a less Christ-specific message from some random picking from an epistle (in the sense that any religion could say "Love God and obey him", but that would not mean that they were necessarily preaching the Good news of Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection, and the restoration and transformation of all creation that follows from it; only Christianity does this). And yes, of course to reduce this wondrous, time-rending event to "obey the commandments" is not of God...we know that He Who has fulfilled the commandments has come!

Would that the Mormons, Muslims, Jews, and all others of the command-based religions would likewise recognize this. Lord have mercy.

He is the way · Sep 3, 2019

mmksparbud said:
2Co_4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Yes I understand what the gospel is and what it is not.

dzheremi · Sep 3, 2019

He is the way said:
Yes I understand what the gospel is and what it is not.

If this were the case, you would flee from Mormonism as quickly as possible.

He is the way · Sep 3, 2019

dzheremi said:
The Gospels are the four of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John. The other NT writings are the Pauline epistles (Galatians, Romans, etc.), the Catholic Epistles (James, I & II Peter, I John, Jude), the Acts of the Apostles, and the Revelation (a.k.a. the Apocalypse of St. John).

When you call things that aren't Gospels gospels it makes it seem like you don't know anything about the Bible. It'd be like if I called St. Paul's epistle "the Gospel to the Epehsians", even though it is mostly not a retelling of Christ's life, but instead concerns how to run the Church, how to treat one another, the diverse gifts given to believers, and other similar things that do not belong in a Gospel text.

I assume that you mean it in the singular, in the sense of "good news", and while the Pauline epistles certainly contain that, it is inappropriate to call their content 'the gospel' because the gospel is the good news of Christ, not the reminder to love God. It's not that it is not important (indeed, Christ Himself tells us that this is one of the two things on which hang all the laws of the prophets), but it's not a summary of the gospel. The gospel is that the Son of God, the Savior, has come in the form of a servant, and saved us through His voluntary death for us sinners and His glorious and mysterious resurrection, so that we may be freed from the chains of sin and death. He is risen and He will raise us up on the last day, to judgment and (God-willing) acceptance into His kingdom.

Loving God and following His commandments are of course very important, but if that was the gospel entire, then what is all this other stuff about this Jesus guy that we see in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? You know, all the stuff that isn't the one sentence you've taken from the Pauline epistle?

I suppose it's tempting to (want to) reduce everything to something you can fit on a coffee cup or something, but if that's the goal, then at least go with something from the Gospels, like John 3:16. Because Christ is the message. Not the generic "love God and do what he says", which is something that any religion could say.

Gospel means "good news" meaning that through repentance and the atonement Jesus Christ made it possible for us to be saved. He said:

(New Testament | John 16:33)

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

This is the good news. I LOVE the rest of the Bible because we can learn from it. There is nothing more inconstant in the Bible than that showing us the need to keep the commandments.

dzheremi · Sep 3, 2019

I know what the word gospel means, and I know what Christ said, but you are the one who repeats like a drum beat "follow the commandments". Now you seem to be focusing on Christ's overcoming the world (because I chided you for focusing on other things to the absolute exclusion of this, or is this just a big coincidence that you've suddenly rediscovered this Christ-centered approach to the scriptures?), which is good but is a noticeable shift from what we have consistently seen from you, which is all commandment-based, as though Christ never came and fulfilled the law in the first place.

twin.spin · Sep 3, 2019

dzheremi said:
Did you mean your reply as a response to mine, twin.spin? Because just in case it is not clear, I agree with what you have written; that's why I wrote to our Mormon friend that it would be better to go with John 3:16 as an encapsulation of the gospel than to extract a less Christ-specific message from some random picking from an epistle (in the sense that any religion could say "Love God and obey him", but that would not mean that they were necessarily preaching the Good news of Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection, and the restoration and transformation of all creation that follows from it; only Christianity does this). And yes, of course to reduce this wondrous, time-rending event to "obey the commandments" is not of God...we know that He Who has fulfilled the commandments has come!

Would that the Mormons, Muslims, Jews, and all others of the command-based religions would likewise recognize this. Lord have mercy.

My reply can also be intended for you also.

God revealed in Scriptures just how much in opposition the message as the gospel being obedience to the law:

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21

Who does God reveal as being someone that would promote something so devilish that would essentially make "Christ died for nothing!" ?

"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:" Philippians 3:18

And that is Mormonism when the gospel is obedience to the commandments … LDS are enemies of the cross of Christ.

He is the way · Sep 3, 2019

twin.spin said:
The Gospel is summed up by Jesus in Jn 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This is message Paul preached as first importance: 1Corinthians_15:3

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

Any message resembling that obedience to the commandments is the Gospel … is the lie of demons, straight from the dungeons of hell.

Well, from what Jesus Christ taught, disobedience to the commandments will cause people to go straight to the dungeons of hell:

(New Testament | Luke 6:46)

46 ¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

(New Testament | Ephesians 5:1 - 6)

1 BE ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

(New Testament | James 1:22)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

(New Testament | 2 John 1:6)

6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

(New Testament | James 1:13 - 15)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

He is the way · Sep 3, 2019

dzheremi said:
I know what the word gospel means, and I know what Christ said, but you are the one who repeats like a drum beat "follow the commandments". Now you seem to be focusing on Christ's overcoming the world (because I chided you for focusing on other things to the absolute exclusion of this, or is this just a big coincidence that you've suddenly rediscovered this Christ-centered approach to the scriptures?), which is good but is a noticeable shift from what we have consistently seen from you, which is all commandment-based, as though Christ never came and fulfilled the law in the first place.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of sacrifice, He was the sacrifice. He no longer accepts sacrifice by the shedding of blood. He did not do away with the law. He gave us the higher law.

He is the way · Sep 3, 2019

twin.spin said:
My reply can also be intended for you also.

God revealed in Scriptures just how much in opposition the message as the gospel being obedience to the law:

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:21

Who does God reveal as being someone that would promote something so devilish that would essentially make "Christ died for nothing!" ?

"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:" Philippians 3:18

And that is Mormonism when the gospel is obedience to the commandments … LDS are enemies of the cross of Christ.

We are saved by grace after all we can do. Dead faith will not save us.

dzheremi · Sep 3, 2019

He is the way said:
Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of sacrifice, He was the sacrifice. He no longer accepts sacrifice by the shedding of blood. He did not do away with the law. He gave us the higher law.

The Psalmist likewise tells us that the sacrifice to God is a broken spirit, as God does not delight in burnt offerings. This was before Christ's incarnation.

I think it is rather myopic and ultimately wrong to carve up the law in this and that way so as to say that Christ fulfilled this aspect of it, when He Himself said that He fulfilled it without specifying only one aspect. Rather the opposite is obviously stated throughout the Beatitudes and elsewhere, when He preaches the correct way to approach the various precepts that had been established among the Jews of that time. Those are in no way limited to only this or that aspect of the law. Christ fulfilled the law completely, and also reminded the Pharisees that to neglect its spirit in favor of a soulless adherence to it is to leave it at best half-done, as in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone"

If we were to apply this to the actions of the Mormon religion, for instance, we could say that tithing is not bad in itself, but that it is to be done with the right understanding (not to get a 'temple recommend', but to give to God from your first fruits, cf. Deuteronomy 26); similarly, to make covenants is not bad, but that is to be done with the right understanding, and so on.

Like the Pharisees of old, the correction is not "Stop doing the thing altogether", but "Don't do the the thing 'because it is following the commandment, and that is what we have to do based on our reading of X', but because you have a deep understanding of what it is to follow what has been established for us in Christ, who has freed us from such soulless legalism." It is only in Christ that doing anything has the meaning that it is supposed to have, which is the meaning that He has given it (see again the Beatitudes, but also His baptism, the Lord's prayer, the transfiguration, the last supper, of course the crucifixion, etc.), and so those who misappropriate Christ or follow after false Christs perform any and all ritual or action to no good end, because it is not rooted in the true God. (cf. Matthew 15:13)

mmksparbud · Sep 3, 2019

dzheremi said:
I think it is rather myopic and ultimately wrong to carve up the law in this and that way so as to say that Christ fulfilled this aspect of it, when He Himself said that He fulfilled it without specifying only one aspect. Rather the opposite is obviously stated throughout the Beatitudes and elsewhere, when He preaches the correct way to approach the various precepts that had been established among the Jews of that time. Those are in no way limited to only this or that aspect of the law. Christ fulfilled the law completely, and also reminded the Pharisees that to neglect its spirit in favor of a soulless adherence to it is to leave it at best half-done, as in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone"

Here I have to disagree. It is God that made the distinction between the ceremonial laws and the law of the testimony---the 10. God wrote the 10 on stone with His own finger and had them stored in the earthly ark in the earthly sanctuary. The ceremonial laws, God dictated to Moses, who wrote them on parchment and the were placed outside the ark. The earthly sanctuary was patterned after the heavenly sanctuary. The heavenly sanctuary contains the ark---it is called the ark of the testimony---containing the 10. They are eternal.
Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
The ceremonial laws pointing to Jesus as the Sacrificial Lamb are, indeed, what was crucified. They would be a slap in the face of God to continue animal sacrifices when He tore the veil between the Holy and Most Holy place and made it clear---the temple services were over. It took the Jews until the Romans tore the temple down for them to get the message. But they were done with.
Keeping the 10 will not save you, it is the grace of God. Breaking them, will get you lost if you do not repent. We keep the 10 not to be saved but because we are saved. They are written in the heart, but still written by God. It is not a matter of doing all we can and God does the rest--we can never do enough--we can not save ourselves. It is God's grace, His love that covers our sins and that love will be expressed by doing all that He asks. It is His righteousness that the Father sees when He sees us, not our own filthy rags.
Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Christ did not die so we can do all we can and He fills in the blanks---His power, grace, blood and love enables us to do all that He asks.

dzheremi · Sep 3, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Christ did not die so we can do all we can and He fills in the blanks---His power, grace, blood and love enables us to do all that He asks.

I'm sorry, but where did I suggest otherwise?

mmksparbud · Sep 3, 2019

dzheremi said:
I'm sorry, but where did I suggest otherwise?

I didn't disagree with that part---just beginning of my statement.

dzheremi · Sep 3, 2019

Okay then.

He is the way · Sep 3, 2019

dzheremi said:
The Psalmist likewise tells us that the sacrifice to God is a broken spirit, as God does not delight in burnt offerings. This was before Christ's incarnation.

I think it is rather myopic and ultimately wrong to carve up the law in this and that way so as to say that Christ fulfilled this aspect of it, when He Himself said that He fulfilled it without specifying only one aspect. Rather the opposite is obviously stated throughout the Beatitudes and elsewhere, when He preaches the correct way to approach the various precepts that had been established among the Jews of that time. Those are in no way limited to only this or that aspect of the law. Christ fulfilled the law completely, and also reminded the Pharisees that to neglect its spirit in favor of a soulless adherence to it is to leave it at best half-done, as in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone"

If we were to apply this to the actions of the Mormon religion, for instance, we could say that tithing is not bad in itself, but that it is to be done with the right understanding (not to get a 'temple recommend', but to give to God from your first fruits, cf. Deuteronomy 26); similarly, to make covenants is not bad, but that is to be done with the right understanding, and so on.

Like the Pharisees of old, the correction is not "Stop doing the thing altogether", but "Don't do the the thing 'because it is following the commandment, and that is what we have to do based on our reading of X', but because you have a deep understanding of what it is to follow what has been established for us in Christ, who has freed us from such soulless legalism." It is only in Christ that doing anything has the meaning that it is supposed to have, which is the meaning that He has given it (see again the Beatitudes, but also His baptism, the Lord's prayer, the transfiguration, the last supper, of course the crucifixion, etc.), and so those who misappropriate Christ or follow after false Christs perform any and all ritual or action to no good end, because it is not rooted in the true God. (cf. Matthew 15:13)

Yes I do agree with you on this. The Pharisees left out the main ingredient of the commandments which is LOVE. That is why Jesus stated that LOVING God and LOVING our neighbor as our self are the two great commandments. Unfortunately the Pharisees loved themselves and were self serving. Everything we do affects others either in a positive or negative way, and like a ripple in a pond it is far reaching. I like the song lyrics, what the world needs now is LOVE sweet LOVE, no not just for some, but for everyone. Little things that we do can make a big difference. We need to be tolerant, kind, and charitable.

dzheremi · Sep 4, 2019

He is the way said:
Yes I do agree with you on this. The Pharisees left out the main ingredient of the commandments which is LOVE. That is why Jesus stated that LOVING God and LOVING our neighbor as our self are the two great commandments. Unfortunately the Pharisees loved themselves and were self serving. Everything we do affects others either in a positive or negative way, and like a ripple in a pond it is far reaching. I like the song lyrics, what the world needs now is LOVE sweet LOVE, no not just for some, but for everyone. Little things that we do can make a big difference. We need to be tolerant, kind, and charitable.

Hmm. I'm glad you got something out of it, but at the same time I cannot help but feel like I have failed, because maybe I was too subtle or sounded too conciliatory (I'm really trying to be less sarcastic/caustic). I think I have even been misunderstood as saying that there can be no division between the ten commandments written by the finger of God and the law more generally, even though that was not my intent, either. But just so we are clear, "Those who misappropriate Christ" and "follow after false Christs" are all those in non-Christian religions, including Mormonism.

Doesn't the fact that we can agree on the paramount importance of love in everything we do (e.g., in our approach to our own religions, and those in other religions) tell you that love in itself cannot be a substitute for sound theology? After all, our religions could not be further apart in theology, since we openly deny that you (Mormons; the 'general you' again) worship God at all.

I remember having this same conversation a few years ago on here with someone who presented loving ones neighbor as being greater than having correct belief in Christ. There too I would invoke Christ our God's reminder that "these too you should have done, without leaving the others undone", which is applicable to more than the details of following the law.

The point in everything is to lead back to Christ, because it is only in Christ that we can truly understand anything. "In Your light, we see light." (Ps. 36:9) To love is of course the basis of the two greatest commandments upon which hang all the law and all the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40), but one cannot simply be exchanged for the other, as though being loving towards one's neighbor substitutes for loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind, which our fathers have always interpreted as strict fidelity to God alone (hence, no to all false doctrines and religions), as when St. Justin Martyr (+165) says in his dialogue with Trypho:

And hence I think that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ spoke well when He summed up all righteousness and piety in two commandments. They are these: 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy strength, and thy neighbour as thyself.' For the man who loves God with all the heart, and with all the strength, being filled with a God-fearing mind, will reverence no other god

And St. Cyprian of Carthage (+ 258) a little bit later places the worship of God as the second point of his exhortation to martyrdom addressed to Fornatus (the first being that idols are not God, and the elements are not to be worshiped in place of God), and explicitly ties the two great commandments to this foundational principle in his argument:

2. That God alone must be worshipped.

"As it is written, Thou shall worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Also in Exodus: "Thou shalt have none other gods beside me."17 Also in Deuteronomy: "See ye, see ye that I am He, and that there is no God beside me. I will kill, and will make alive; I will smite, and I will heal; and there is none who can deliver out of mine hands." In the Apocalypse, moreover: "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach over the earth, and over all nations, and tribes, and tongues, and peoples, saying with a loud voice, Fear God rather, and give glory to Him: for the hour of His judgment is come; and worship Him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that therein is." So also the Lord, in His Gospel, makes mention of the first and second commandment, saying, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord thy God is one God; " and, "Thou shalt love thy Lord with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength. This is the first; and the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." And once more: "And this is life eternal, that they may know Thee, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."

And there are many more of similar vintage, both fathers (e.g., Athenagoras of Athens, Clement of Alexandria, etc.) and non (e.g., Origen, Tertullian, etc.), who have written similarly. I only chose these two for the purposes of illustration.

So for the Church it is and always has been a theological principle, not just a behavioral guide, such that if we do not share the same theology (and when it comes to Mormonism and Christianity, we do not), then we may recognize you -- if there is some reason to do so (as I am currently doing, so as to clarify my position) -- as at best fulfilling one out of two of the great commandments given by Christ, and then only by the desire to be really nice (which is of God, lest anyone think otherwise), rather than out of true communion with God and His indwelling in you, because He is rejected in your religious system in favor of other things.

In other words, as all good inclinations come from the transformative power of God, which has affected all creation (both those in harmony with Him and those in rebellion), even the openly godless atheist who feeds the poor and loves their neighbor is showing forth God's light by his action, even as he denies God with his mouth. Such is the power of God that no one may extinguish Him by their will, though they may reject Him by the same, as that is the double-edged sword that is 'free will'. Hence Mormons are free to follow after other gods even while claiming not to, and all Christians who believe in One God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- must remain firm that it is not enough to simply 'claim' God and speak of love, as all religions do, but to explain and defend in truth that which differentiates the worship of the true God from the gods of other religions.

I just wanted to clear that up, because again the one-two punch of disagreement from a Christian (though I don't know much about the SDA as an organization, mmksparkbud has written many things I do find myself agreeing with, either wholly or in part) and agreement from a Mormon makes me think I must've seriously 'misspoke' at some point, and I don't want to just leave that be.

I love you, Mormons, but I don't agree with you, and not because I have personally made that decision of my own accord, but because my faith tells me not to, and if it comes down to appearing 'loving' to those who equate that with agreement (and theological disagreement with hate, being 'anti' whatever they are as in the epithets 'anti-Mormon', 'Islamophobic', etc.) or following my faith, then my faith must win if I am to be said to be following it at all.

And when you examine that, you will find that you don't agree with it, no matter how often you may invoke love, and God, and Christ the Savior, and so on.

From the Agpeya, the Coptic Orthodox book of daily prayers, Prime hour (sunrise):

THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.

+++

I have put in bold the portion that I know from having spent many hours talking to Mormons on CF (particularly Peter1000 and the sadly missed by me Jane_Doe) you both do not understand and vehemently disagree with. No matter. This is the faith which we have been given by God, so any and all can go away with their objections.

I hope everything is clear now, and I'm sorry if I have confused anyone.

He is the way · Sep 4, 2019

dzheremi said:
Hmm. I'm glad you got something out of it, but at the same time I cannot help but feel like I have failed, because maybe I was too subtle or sounded too conciliatory (I'm really trying to be less sarcastic/caustic). I think I have even been misunderstood as saying that there can be no division between the ten commandments written by the finger of God and the law more generally, even though that was not my intent, either. But just so we are clear, "Those who misappropriate Christ" and "follow after false Christs" are all those in non-Christian religions, including Mormonism.

Doesn't the fact that we can agree on the paramount importance of love in everything we do (e.g., in our approach to our own religions, and those in other religions) tell you that love in itself cannot be a substitute for sound theology? After all, our religions could not be further apart in theology, since we openly deny that you (Mormons; the 'general you' again) worship God at all.

I remember having this same conversation a few years ago on here with someone who presented loving ones neighbor as being greater than having correct belief in Christ. There too I would invoke Christ our God's reminder that "these too you should have done, without leaving the others undone", which is applicable to more than the details of following the law.

The point in everything is to lead back to Christ, because it is only in Christ that we can truly understand anything. "In Your light, we see light." (Ps. 36:9) To love is of course the basis of the two greatest commandments upon which hang all the law and all the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40), but one cannot simply be exchanged for the other, as though being loving towards one's neighbor substitutes for loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind, which our fathers have always interpreted as strict fidelity to God alone (hence, no to all false doctrines and religions), as when St. Justin Martyr (+165) says in his dialogue with Trypho:

And hence I think that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ spoke well when He summed up all righteousness and piety in two commandments. They are these: 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy strength, and thy neighbour as thyself.' For the man who loves God with all the heart, and with all the strength, being filled with a God-fearing mind, will reverence no other god

And St. Cyprian of Carthage (+ 258) a little bit later places the worship of God as the second point of his exhortation to martyrdom addressed to Fornatus (the first being that idols are not God, and the elements are not to be worshiped in place of God), and explicitly ties the two great commandments to this foundational principle in his argument:

2. That God alone must be worshipped.

"As it is written, Thou shall worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve." Also in Exodus: "Thou shalt have none other gods beside me."17 Also in Deuteronomy: "See ye, see ye that I am He, and that there is no God beside me. I will kill, and will make alive; I will smite, and I will heal; and there is none who can deliver out of mine hands." In the Apocalypse, moreover: "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach over the earth, and over all nations, and tribes, and tongues, and peoples, saying with a loud voice, Fear God rather, and give glory to Him: for the hour of His judgment is come; and worship Him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that therein is." So also the Lord, in His Gospel, makes mention of the first and second commandment, saying, "Hear, O Israel, The Lord thy God is one God; " and, "Thou shalt love thy Lord with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength. This is the first; and the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." And once more: "And this is life eternal, that they may know Thee, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."

And there are many more of similar vintage, both fathers (e.g., Athenagoras of Athens, Clement of Alexandria, etc.) and non (e.g., Origen, Tertullian, etc.), who have written similarly. I only chose these two for the purposes of illustration.

So for the Church it is and always has been a theological principle, not just a behavioral guide, such that if we do not share the same theology (and when it comes to Mormonism and Christianity, we do not), then we may recognize you -- if there is some reason to do so (as I am currently doing, so as to clarify my position) -- as at best fulfilling one out of two of the great commandments given by Christ, and then only by the desire to be really nice (which is of God, lest anyone think otherwise), rather than out of true communion with God and His indwelling in you, because He is rejected in your religious system in favor of other things.

In other words, as all good inclinations come from the transformative power of God, which has affected all creation (both those in harmony with Him and those in rebellion), even the openly godless atheist who feeds the poor and loves their neighbor is showing forth God's light by his action, even as he denies God with his mouth. Such is the power of God that no one may extinguish Him by their will, though they may reject Him by the same, as that is the double-edged sword that is 'free will'. Hence Mormons are free to follow after other gods even while claiming not to, and all Christians who believe in One God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- must remain firm that it is not enough to simply 'claim' God and speak of love, as all religions do, but to explain and defend in truth that which differentiates the worship of the true God from the gods of other religions.

I just wanted to clear that up, because again the one-two punch of disagreement from a Christian (though I don't know much about the SDA as an organization, mmksparkbud has written many things I do find myself agreeing with, either wholly or in part) and agreement from a Mormon makes me think I must've seriously 'misspoke' at some point, and I don't want to just leave that be.

I love you, Mormons, but I don't agree with you, and not because I have personally made that decision of my own accord, but because my faith tells me not to, and if it comes down to appearing 'loving' to those who equate that with agreement (and theological disagreement with hate, being 'anti' whatever they are as in the epithets 'anti-Mormon', 'Islamophobic', etc.) or following my faith, then my faith must win if I am to be said to be following it at all.

And when you examine that, you will find that you don't agree with it, no matter how often you may invoke love, and God, and Christ the Savior, and so on.

From the Agpeya, the Coptic Orthodox book of daily prayers, Prime hour (sunrise):

THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.

+++

I have put in bold the portion that I know from having spent many hours talking to Mormons on CF (particularly Peter1000 and the sadly missed by me Jane_Doe) you both do not understand and vehemently disagree with. No matter. This is the faith which we have been given by God, so any and all can go away with their objections.

I hope everything is clear now, and I'm sorry if I have confused anyone.

Thank you. I also think it should be noted what Jesus Christ said concerning LOVING our neighbor just so we do not get confused that the two great commandments might be at odds with one another. The first commandment is to LOVE the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength. And the second thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself. To correlate the two commandments Jesus said:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

It is important that we LOVE everyone, even our enemy. Here is another scripture to solidify these truths:

(New Testament | 1 John 4:20 - 21)

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

It is my hope that people will learn the importance of LOVE.

dzheremi · Sep 4, 2019

Is not being willing to compromise on Christian theology so as to commune with godless people (i.e., let Christianity be whatever Mormons or Muslims or whoever want it to be) somehow unloving, or is it being loving to God, as the two greatest commandments given to us by Christ tell us to be? Because again, I won't substitute one for the other, as Christ paired them for a reason.

Peter1000 · Sep 4, 2019

dzheremi said:
I didn't say it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. I said that such speculation, or rather, the codification of it, has no support in the history of Christianity. You don't find the great saints like HH St. Irenaeus, HH St. Ignatius, HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St. Ephrem the Syrian, HH St. Cyril, St. Basil, St. Gegory, the three Macarii, and so on, writing about the 'makeup' of the Holy Spirit. If you knew Christian history, you know that 'pneumatology' or whatever you'd call it was defined to the extent that it needed to be to deal with the Pneumatomachi, the 'Spirit Fighters' (obviously not a name they gave to themselves) a.k.a. Macedonians of the late fourth, early fifth century who gathered in large numbers in Antioch and Alexandria. These groups were anti-Nicene (against the Creed), so-called 'Semi-Arian', and were called 'Spirit Fighters' because they denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit. This heresy is why the 381 version of the Creed adopted by the first Council of Constantinople was expanded to include explicit affirmations of the Holy Spirit's Godhood: "And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is [equally] worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets." Please read HH St. Athanasius' Letter to Serapion and HG St. Basil of Caesarea's On the Holy Spirit (both mentioned at the link) for more on the orthodox Christian understanding of this topic. You will note that in these writings, just like in all others that answered the Macedonians, no one asserts anything about a physical makeup of the Holy Spirit, because such an idea is alien to Christianity.

I am not only talking about the Holy Spirit, but any spirit being. There are many spirit beings, right? JS says that spirit is made of 'refined matter', hence it cannot be seen by our normal mortal eyes.

But it's not interesting. It's heresy. Very old heresy, at that. It's boring to have to deal with things that Mormons think are brand new, but are really just the repackaging of ancient heretical ideas with some new verbiage.

How old is the heresy that says spirit is made up of 'refined matter'? What heretical doctrine is repackaged in spirit is made up of 'refined matter'?

because the fathers who we have from before Nicaea do not write that the Holy Spirit is made out of matter.

Neither does JS. His teaching is that all spirit (including the Holy Spirit) is made out of a
'refined matter', not just matter. If spirit was made out of matter, it could be seen by mortal eyes, so we know it is not made of just plain old matter. It is a 'refined matter', so refined that the mortal eye cannot see it.

'Pompous statement'? For one thing, I didn't write the Creed, for another thing, I'm not the one asserting something that is in contradiction to the entire history of Christianity based on supposed 'revelations' given to me from God that no one is allowed to question.

Yes, pompous. JS says X and you pompously state that he is a liar, and there is not truth to the idea that a spirit is made of of 'refined matter'.

It is pompous because if you think JS doesn't know anything about the make up of the spirit, neither do you. So to so emphatically call him a liar, when you have no idea either, is a rather pompous position.

but to call anyone who doesn't adhere to your latter-day revelations 'pompous'

You need not adhere to our latter-day revelations, but to call them lies about a subject you have no idea about, and present an alternative as if it is the absolute truth, is a pompous position.

It would not be pompous if you said, well, I have never heard of what the spirit is made up of, and so I will have to pass on this subject or I will study this out further and let you know what I think. That would be a humble attitude. You did not approach my post that way.

LDS LDS---YIKES!

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