He is the way
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We do know that the plates were hidden in a hill near Manchester, New York.
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We do know that the plates were hidden in a hill near Manchester, New York.Is this your speculation or has the lds church made an official declaration of where the BOM takes place? Last I heard, the lds church had no official statement on the location of Hill Cumorah.
You said: "But it's not interesting. It's heresy. Very old heresy, at that. It's boring to have to deal with things that Mormons think are brand new, but are really just the repackaging of ancient heretical ideas with some new verbiage."I didn't say it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. I said that such speculation, or rather, the codification of it, has no support in the history of Christianity. You don't find the great saints like HH St. Irenaeus, HH St. Ignatius, HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St. Ephrem the Syrian, HH St. Cyril, St. Basil, St. Gegory, the three Macarii, and so on, writing about the 'makeup' of the Holy Spirit. If you knew Christian history, you know that 'pneumatology' or whatever you'd call it was defined to the extent that it needed to be to deal with the Pneumatomachi, the 'Spirit Fighters' (obviously not a name they gave to themselves) a.k.a. Macedonians of the late fourth, early fifth century who gathered in large numbers in Antioch and Alexandria. These groups were anti-Nicene (against the Creed), so-called 'Semi-Arian', and were called 'Spirit Fighters' because they denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit. This heresy is why the 381 version of the Creed adopted by the first Council of Constantinople was expanded to include explicit affirmations of the Holy Spirit's Godhood: "And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is [equally] worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets." Please read HH St. Athanasius' Letter to Serapion and HG St. Basil of Caesarea's On the Holy Spirit (both mentioned at the link) for more on the orthodox Christian understanding of this topic. You will note that in these writings, just like in all others that answered the Macedonians, no one asserts anything about a physical makeup of the Holy Spirit, because such an idea is alien to Christianity.
But it's not interesting. It's heresy. Very old heresy, at that. It's boring to have to deal with things that Mormons think are brand new, but are really just the repackaging of ancient heretical ideas with some new verbiage.
Nobody may have said that exact thing, but so what? It's not like there were never any people who held heretical views about the Holy Spirit before. Joseph Smith and his theology does not deserve serious consideration for apply ancient heretical ideas in new ways or to new things. It's still heresy.
Do whatever you want, but it's wasting your time and poising yourself with heretical teachings. There are definitely better things to do. I know if I were to study Joseph Smith's views, I would want to compare them to the historical Christian views even if I didn't believe in those already, because of course Mormonism claims to be a restoration of the Church, including its original 'pre-apostasy' theology. So I would want to see that same view espoused in the earliest Church fathers...and I would have to conclude that Mormonism is not what it says it is, because the fathers who we have from before Nicaea do not write that the Holy Spirit is made out of matter.
'Pompous statement'? For one thing, I didn't write the Creed, for another thing, I'm not the one asserting something that is in contradiction to the entire history of Christianity based on supposed 'revelations' given to me from God that no one is allowed to question.
So who's really pompous here, Peter? This isn't even the pot calling the kettle black, because you didn't invent Joseph Smith's theology, either (read: Joseph Smith is the pompous one here; you are simply repeating his assertions because Mormonism doesn't allow you to do anything else), but to call anyone who doesn't adhere to your latter-day revelations 'pompous' for continuing to keep to traditional Christian teachings on this subject instead is certainly not in line with humility, which I would hope anyone calling someone else 'pompous' would display in their own conduct, so as to not seem like a gigantic hypocrite.
You said: "But it's not interesting. It's heresy. Very old heresy, at that. It's boring to have to deal with things that Mormons think are brand new, but are really just the repackaging of ancient heretical ideas with some new verbiage."
While Jesus Christ was on the earth people took His sayings to be heretical or blasphemous. It is no different today when He reveals something new.
People automatically take the opposing view even when it makes no sense at all.
If spirits were nothing they would not exist, but they do exist, therefore they are something.
Spiritual resurrected bodies war made of flesh and bone
(New Testament | Luke 24:39)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Yet we can not always see them:
(New Testament | Luke 24:36 - 37)
36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
(New Testament | Matthew 18:20)
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
So whether you believe it or not, I know that spirits are indeed made out of matter.
I also know that our spirits look like us and we will recognize members of our family when we go to the spirit world. Other beliefs are heretical.
I said: "While Jesus Christ was on the earth people took His sayings to be heretical or blasphemous. It is no different today when He reveals something new. People automatically take the opposing view even when it makes no sense at all. If spirits were nothing they would not exist, but they do exist, therefore they are something. Spiritual resurrected bodies war made of flesh and bone:"Stop comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ our God. Joseph Smith is the one who came up with this particular heresy, and Joseph Smith is not Jesus, and Jesus did not reveal anything new to Joseph Smith, and has never revealed anything to any Mormon prophet.
You can mishandle the scriptures in any way you want to, but that does not make Joseph Smith's fantasies true revelations.
It doesn't make sense at all to say, a propos of nothing, that the Holy Spirit is made out of some kind of 'spirit matter'. Christ never said that, nor did any of his apostles and disciples, nor did any of the fathers, or any of the councils, or anyone in any Christian tradition at any time.
First of all, this relies on Mormon pseudo-philosophical ideas being true basically just because you want them to be. Secondly, it's entirely too vague to say "Therefore they are something". Okay. Everything is 'something', because 'something' can cover both material and immaterial things. The specific claim I am countering here is the claim that the Holy Spirit is made out of some sort of undefined and vague 'spirit matter', because Joseph Smith was too dense to understand anything at any level beyond the material. Your false prophet's intellectual limitations are not something non-Mormons should have to answer for.
That wasn't even the claim that I was originally responding to. Now you're trying to change what we're talking about because there's no basis in any form of Christianity to argue that the Holy Spirit is made of 'spirit matter'.
Gee...let's think about this real hard (and also put the verses back in order; I don't know why you're presenting them out of order here):
As they spoke, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them and said "Peace be unto you", which scared them because thought they must be seeing (SEEING) (SEEING) a spirit.
Yeah, I guess that passage that specifically talks about them seeing Him is saying "we can't always see them", isn't it?
Indeed. It is a common refrain in the Eastern Orthodox Church, for instance, to say in certain parts of the liturgy "Christ is in our midst!", and so many of our prayers are addressed directly to the Persons of the Holy Trinity in the Coptic Orthodox liturgy that it is impossible to escape the conclusion that we proclaim them to be among us. (In addition to the parts of the liturgy where we literally do so, just not in the same exact words as the Byzantines do.)
You don't know that; you believe it, and your basis for believing it is the esoteric theology of one guy, who was never an apostle of Christ, who never received anything from Him or from His apostles or disciples, whose views cannot be traced back to anything within the first few Christian centuries, and who (re)introduced a bunch of stuff that had already been roundly rejected by Christians for centuries at the time of its supposed 'restoration'.
How this adds up to knowing anything is beyond me! You know Joseph Smith, and the line of false prophets he established. That's it. And Joseph Smith is neither Christ nor one of His apostles.
Hahahaha. Quit trying throw 'church words' at me like you know what they mean. A Mormon claiming others are heretical. Good gracious. I thought this Labor Day, not Opposite Day.
Your church leadership disagrees. Are you sure you want to maintain your position?We do know that the plates were hidden in a hill near Manchester, New York.
I said: "While Jesus Christ was on the earth people took His sayings to be heretical or blasphemous. It is no different today when He reveals something new. People automatically take the opposing view even when it makes no sense at all. If spirits were nothing they would not exist, but they do exist, therefore they are something. Spiritual resurrected bodies war made of flesh and bone:"
You said: "Stop comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ our God. Joseph Smith is the one who came up with this particular heresy, and Joseph Smith is not Jesus, and Jesus did not reveal anything new to Joseph Smith, and has never revealed anything to any Mormon prophet.
You can mishandle the scriptures in any way you want to, but that does not make Joseph Smith's fantasies true revelations."
I was not comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ. I did not even mention Joseph Smith there.
Jesus Christ still speaks to us through His prophets even if you say He doesn't. Saying that He doesn't will not change the facts.
You said: "It doesn't make sense at all to say, a propos of nothing, that the Holy Spirit is made out of some kind of 'spirit matter'. Christ never said that, nor did any of his apostles and disciples, nor did any of the fathers, or any of the councils, or anyone in any Christian tradition at any time."
So?
You said: "First of all, this relies on Mormon pseudo-philosophical ideas being true basically just because you want them to be. Secondly, it's entirely too vague to say "Therefore they are something". Okay. Everything is 'something', because 'something' can cover both material and immaterial things. The specific claim I am countering here is the claim that the Holy Spirit is made out of some sort of undefined and vague 'spirit matter', because Joseph Smith was too dense to understand anything at any level beyond the material. Your false prophet's intellectual limitations are not something non-Mormons should have to answer for."
There is no such thing as immaterial (matter) things.
I have read over 50 books from people who have experienced the spirit world.
I have listened to people who have experienced the spirit world. I understand the scriptures related to the spirit world.
Your church leadership disagrees. Are you sure you want to maintain your position?
Book of Mormon geography/Statements/First Presidency Letter/Second letter scan - FairMormon
Yes we do know that the plates were hidden in a hill near Manchester, New York. It may not have been the hill Cumorah, but we do know that Joseph Smith did not go all the way to south America to get the plates. They were hidden near where he lived.
Mark 3:25 - 26)
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
If my saying it doesn't happen doesn't make that a fact, then how does your saying that it doessomehow make that a fact? Are you opinions somehow more factual than mine, particularly when you're the one trying to sell us on a novel religion?
You have your opinion, but it is not fact.
So this is a Christian website, and these are our traditional sources for determining the truth of any subsequent 'revelation'. If it doesn't match up with what we have already received (and Mormonism definitely doesn't), then we are to reject it. What else do you think all of those warnings in the NT that say exactly that are about? "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach to you any other gospel than what we have preached, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8)
Many of the things you believe do not match up with the Bible.
Jesus describes faith as having a size.
He also said "God is LOVE". Although this may be symbolic the spirit is not. It is matter.
I.A.N.D.S. is a reputable international organization that has been around for many years. I have attended their meetings and met many of those who have experienced the spirit world. They are not lying about this.
Do you believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?
He is the way said:I had to edit my post it was missing parts.
You said: "How is that an answer to Mormonism directly contradicting Galatians 1:8? It's like you zoom in on whatever it is you want to whether or not it's actually related to what I've posted."
Another inconsistency in the BOM fairy tale.Yes we do know that the plates were hidden in a hill near Manchester, New York. It may not have been the hill Cumorah, but we do know that Joseph Smith did not go all the way to south America to get the plates. They were hidden near where he lived.
For the umpteenth time, you are misunderstanding what the Gospel is or means. There is no "Gospel of Ecclesiastes", but somehow you keep quoting it as your gospel reference.You misunderstand what the gospel is. This is the gospel:
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)
13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
What is your problem with the Bible? Why do you NOT understand the whole duty of man? While it is true that Jesus Christ took upon Himself the sins of those who truly repent and cease from sin, we know that He LOVES those who keep the commandments:For the umpteenth time, you are misunderstanding what the Gospel is or means. There is no "Gospel of Ecclesiastes", but somehow you keep quoting it as your gospel reference.
What is your problem with the Bible? Why do you NOT understand the whole duty of man? While it is true that Jesus Christ took upon Himself the sins of those who truly repent and cease from sin, we know that He LOVES those who keep the commandments:
(New Testament | John 14:24)
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
What is your problem with the Bible?
The Gospel is summed up by Jesus in Jn 3:16The Gospels are the four of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John. The other NT writings are the Pauline epistles (Galatians, Romans, etc.), the Catholic Epistles (James, I & II Peter, I John, Jude), the Acts of the Apostles, and the Revelation (a.k.a. the Apocalypse of St. John).
When you call things that aren't Gospels gospels it makes it seem like you don't know anything about the Bible. It'd be like if I called St. Paul's epistle "the Gospel to the Epehsians", even though it is mostly not a retelling of Christ's life, but instead concerns how to run the Church, how to treat one another, the diverse gifts given to believers, and other similar things that do not belong in a Gospel text.
I assume that you mean it in the singular, in the sense of "good news", and while the Pauline epistles certainly contain that, it is inappropriate to call their content 'the gospel' because the gospel is the good news of Christ, not the reminder to love God. It's not that it is not important (indeed, Christ Himself tells us that this is one of the two things on which hang all the laws of the prophets), but it's not a summary of the gospel. The gospel is that the Son of God, the Savior, has come in the form of a servant, and saved us through His voluntary death for us sinners and His glorious and mysterious resurrection, so that we may be freed from the chains of sin and death. He is risen and He will raise us up on the last day, to judgment and (God-willing) acceptance into His kingdom.
Loving God and following His commandments are of course very important, but if that was the gospel entire, then what is all this other stuff about this Jesus guy that we see in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? You know, all the stuff that isn't the one sentence you've taken from the Pauline epistle?
I suppose it's tempting to (want to) reduce everything to something you can fit on a coffee cup or something, but if that's the goal, then at least go with something from the Gospels, like John 3:16. Because Christ is the message. Not the generic "love God and do what he says", which is something that any religion could say.
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