LDS LDS, The Father, and the Trinity

Back to the original discussion here;

Job 19
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another;

Matt 5 “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God”

Either Jesus was lying or God is seeable.

The word translated ‘invisible’ in the New Testament does not mean un-see-able but simply unseen. While all the pagans around them had gods made of stone which they could see and worship their Father God was unseen. He had been ‘unseen’ by man from the point Adam left the Garden until Jesus rose from the grave and parted the curtain.

Acts 7: 55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Stephen saw him.

Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John:6:45-46 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Because of his righteousness Enoch was the exception to the rule and is a good example of this idea of the Father making his abode with someone.

“And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”

“Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.’

I’ll go back to John

“… the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is not a thesis on the physical nature of God but on how to truly worship God. An important element is truth. When one has the fullness of the Gospel and the Gift of the Holy there is a spiritual communication which begins to takes place. When we have reached a point in our “walk with God” that we hear his voice and he will come and sup with us. We call this having your calling and election made sure. It doesn’t happen often during this earth life but on occasion like Enoch some people reach this point in their walk with God.

It is felt Bruce R. McConkie is one of these people. Two weeks before he died and he knew he was dieing he gave his final witness of the Savior.


Joseph Smith was an exception to the rule in that he had not gone through I suppose that ‘refiners fire’ being young in age but so was Samuel. Joseph was called of God before he was born as was Jeremiah and all of the prophets of God.
There are several different accounts of his experience just as Paul’s story has several different accounts.

In the most complete account he talks about the struggle he had with the powers of darkness “the power of some actual being from the unseen world” which tried to prevent him from saying his prayer. As he began to pray he says;

“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.”

This is the Light of Christ which dispelled the evil and made it possible for “…the Son (to)….reveal him/Father”

He suffered a great deal of persecution for telling mankind the heavens were now open again, some people as in the days of Jesus find it frightening.

Joseph wrote;
I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

withwonderingawe said:

Joseph Smith was an exception to the rule in that he had not gone through I suppose that ‘refiners fire’ being young in age but so was Samuel. Joseph was called of God before he was born as was Jeremiah and all of the prophets of God.
There are several different accounts of his experience just as Paul’s story has several different accounts.

In the most complete account he talks about the struggle he had with the powers of darkness “the power of some actual being from the unseen world” which tried to prevent him from saying his prayer. As he began to pray he says;

“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.”

This is the Light of Christ which dispelled the evil and made it possible for “…the Son (to)….reveal him/Father”

He suffered a great deal of persecution for telling mankind the heavens were now open again, some people as in the days of Jesus find it frightening.

Joseph wrote;
I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

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None of God's messengers ever confused them with a dark power or unknown being. No one has seen God and lived. Satan can disguise as an angel of light. Joseph saw either Satan or an angel of darkness, but certainly not a heavenly being.

BigDaddy4 said:

None of God's messengers ever confused them with a dark power or unknown being. No one has seen God and lived. Satan can disguise as an angel of light. Joseph saw either Satan or an angel of darkness, but certainly not a heavenly being.

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Please read what I write a little more closely; "the powers of darkness" , Joseph was paraphrasing Col 1:12-13

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son'

“the power of some actual being from the unseen world”

He's once again paraphrasing the Bible;
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high place" Eph 6:12

It was Satan trying to prevent him from offering up that first prayer and I said the light which came upon him dispelled the darkness.

I think that it rather sad that you deny God the ability and desire to speak to man again.

withwonderingawe said:

Please read what I write a little more closely; "the powers of darkness" , Joseph was paraphrasing Col 1:12-13

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son'

“the power of some actual being from the unseen world”

He's once again paraphrasing the Bible;
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high place" Eph 6:12

It was Satan trying to prevent him from offering up that first prayer and I said the light which came upon him dispelled the darkness.

I think that it rather sad that you deny God the ability and desire to speak to man again.

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"Thick darkness gathered around me..." is not the entrance of a heavenly being. Neither is "some power" or "some being". God is light, and his messangers appear as light.

ToBeLoved said:

Then you need to talk to your mom or mom brother since he's the one who's talking all this unmovable mover that's not a Christian philosophy at all that's a Mormon thing that your brother Peter brought up

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You would need to quote my post to prove that statement. I am positive I have never used the words
"unmovable mover" ever. So show me the post.

BigDaddy4 said:

"Thick darkness gathered around me..." is not the entrance of a heavenly being. Neither is "some power" or "some being". God is light, and his messangers appear as light.

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You are right BigDaddy4, it is not the entrance of a heavenly being, it is the presence of satan trying to stop JS from offering his prayer. satan had to try to stop that prayer, because JS was going to be instructed by Jesus and God the Father, on how to restore the true church of Jesus Christ back to the earth, and satan would like to have stopped it.

However, God and Jesus had other plans. So just as JS was ready to die from the dark presence of satan, he saw a pillar of light exactly over his head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended until it fell upon him. No sooner had this light appeared than he found himself delivered from satan which had bound him. Now that is an entrance of Heavenly Beings.

In this moment JS could now be a witness of both the light and the dark side of the unseen world. He experienced the awful state that satan and his angels were in. He also felt the exilarating light and effulgent love of the Holy Trinity as They cast out satan and appeared before him to tell him glorious information about the work They were ready to do for mankind again on the earth.

BigDaddy4 said: ↑

None of God's messengers ever confused them with a dark power or unknown being. No one has seen God and lived. Satan can disguise as an angel of light. Joseph saw either Satan or an angel of darkness, but certainly not a heavenly being.
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BigDaddy4 says:
None of God's messengers ever confused them with a dark power or unknown being.

You are certainly right about this, accept satan is not one of God's messengers.

BigDaddy4 says:
No one has seen God and lived.

Now on this statement, you are just plain wrong. You really need to update yourself on this topic. Read post #61, withwonderingawe did a good job to introduce bible scripture concerning this very topic.

BigDaddy4 says:
Joseph saw either Satan or an angel of darkness, but certainly not a heavenly being.

Again, you are just plain wrong. You really need to reread the JS testimony about his first encounter with The Holy Trinity. He was almost overpowered by satan, but was saved by God and Jesus. It was certainly a heavenly experience with Heavenly Beings.

It is a rare occasion in scripture when the Trinity are all together at the same time and the same place, but it did happen several times, so the JS encounter was a rare occasion but not the only accasion that the Trinity showed themsel

BigDaddy4 said:

"Thick darkness gathered around me..." is not the entrance of a heavenly being. Neither is "some power" or "some being". God is light, and his messangers appear as light.

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The scriptures describe God's messengers not as just light, but as brilliant men. Gabriel for instance to Mary. Jesus for instance to Paul. Moses and Elijah for instance to Jesus. An man angel for instance to Hagar. All brilliant men.

There could be instances in the scripture when a human looked up and only saw brilliant light and heard a voice, but I didn't take the time to look.

Peter1000 said:

You are right BigDaddy4, it is not the entrance of a heavenly being, it is the presence of satan trying to stop JS from offering his prayer. satan had to try to stop that prayer, because JS was going to be instructed by Jesus and God the Father, on how to restore the true church of Jesus Christ back to the earth, and satan would like to have stopped it.

However, God and Jesus had other plans. So just as JS was ready to die from the dark presence of satan, he saw a pillar of light exactly over his head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended until it fell upon him. No sooner had this light appeared than he found himself delivered from satan which had bound him. Now that is an entrance of Heavenly Beings.

In this moment JS could now be a witness of both the light and the dark side of the unseen world. He experienced the awful state that satan and his angels were in. He also felt the exilarating light and effulgent love of the Holy Trinity as They cast out satan and appeared before him to tell him glorious information about the work They were ready to do for mankind again on the earth.

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No, that was Satan disguised as an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15:
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

How did Joseph Smith's life end? What his actions deserved.

Peter1000 said:

BigDaddy4 said: ↑

None of God's messengers ever confused them with a dark power or unknown being. No one has seen God and lived. Satan can disguise as an angel of light. Joseph saw either Satan or an angel of darkness, but certainly not a heavenly being.
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BigDaddy4 says:
None of God's messengers ever confused them with a dark power or unknown being.

You are certainly right about this, accept satan is not one of God's messengers.

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No he's not a messenger of God. However, he does disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11), which is what Joseph saw. He is an imitator, not the Creator.

BigDaddy4 says:
No one has seen God and lived.

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Now on this statement, you are just plain wrong. You really need to update yourself on this topic. Read post #61, withwonderingawe did a good job to introduce bible scripture concerning this very topic.

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You saying I'm wrong does not prove I'm wrong. Appealing to the errors of post #61 does not support your position. In effect, withwonderingawe is calling Jesus a liar, and that is not a good position to be in.

BigDaddy4 says:
Joseph saw either Satan or an angel of darkness, but certainly not a heavenly being.

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Again, you are just plain wrong. You really need to reread the JS testimony about his first encounter with The Holy Trinity. He was almost overpowered by satan, but was saved by God and Jesus. It was certainly a heavenly experience with Heavenly Beings.

It is a rare occasion in scripture when the Trinity are all together at the same time and the same place, but it did happen several times, so the JS encounter was a rare occasion but not the only accasion that the Trinity showed themsel

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I know, it would go against your whole lds background to admit to such a thing, but it was Satan imitating God. God the Father has never been seen by any man, save for Jesus, who is God himself.

While the "official" account of the first vision says God and Jesus, other accounts have various beings described in this encounter. In addition, other details are not consistant in each of these accounts, including his age and purpose for inquiry. Joseph was confused, and God is not the author of confusion.

Also, why are you referencing the Trinity? Other lds have denied such a thing exists. Odd that you would claim it as evidence to support your position.

BigDaddy4 said:

No, that was Satan disguised as an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15:
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

How did Joseph Smith's life end? What his actions deserved.

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You really must re-read the JS testimony. JS testified that he saw the Father and the Son. So there were 2 heavenly beings in front of him not just 1. So, probably not satan (1) as an angel of light. 2 satans disquised as 2 angels of light would be unbiblical, so you probably do not want to take that position.

On the other hand, God and His Son Jesus Christ standing side by side and being seen by a man is biblical. See Acts 7:56
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Stephen, the first Christian killed in the Christian Era, testified that he looked into the heavens and the heavens were opened and he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God.
If you read further, the Jews could not stand that he testified that Jesus and God were standing side by side that they rushed upon him and killed him. You see the Jews live and die on God being montheistic. Stephen, the first Christian martyr testified to them that God was not monotheistic, but was really 2 distinct individuals, and he saw 2 of Them standing side by side. They couldn't stand it and covered their ears and rushed upon him and slew him.

So why did God and Jesus show themselves standing side by side to Stephen?

It is because They wanted to make sure the word got out that They were not a 3 in 1 God, (or else when Stephen looked into the heavens, he would have only seen 1 God standing there). They accomplished their task, because his tesitmony was written and included in the bible. Stephen saw 2, not 1.

I have wanted to paint a picture of Stephen looking up into the heavens and seeing Jesus standing side by side with God. Then take that picture to any local Christian church and see what they thought. My guess is that they would be disgusted, thinking it was a picture of JS seeing Jesus and God standing side by side above him in the air. What would you do if you saw a picture of Stephen and Jesus and God, would you forbid it from being hung somewhere in the church?

Now let's go forward to JS. In his day, the majority of Christian churches believed in the Nicean tradition and not the NT tradition. God is 3 in 1. So when JS comes out of the grove of trees and testifies that he saw Jesus standing side by side with God, IOW he saw 2, he literally a few years later was killed for that testimony, just like Stephen was killed almost 2,000 years ago.

As for the death of Joseph Smith, he was murdered by the same men that were engaged in protecting him. The Governor of the state of Illinois made JS a promise that he would be safely guarded by the Carthage Greys, a military unit, called out by the order of the Gov. to protect JS, who had voluntarily given himself up to answer questions about a printing shop that had caught fire and was destroyed. June 27, 1844 was a black day for Illinois, as many men in the unit rushed up the stairs, broke down the door of his jail and shot him many times. JS also had a weapon smuggled into him for fear that this would happen. When the door was about to burst open, and his brother had been shot and killed, JS shot back and wounded a couple of the mob. It did not stop them and they finished their dark task.

Stephen in the bible testifies there are 2, Joseph Smith testifies there are 2, and they are both murdered for their testimonies.

Peter1000 said:

You really must re-read the JS testimony. JS testified that he saw the Father and the Son. So there were 2 heavenly beings in front of him not just 1. So, probably not satan (1) as an angel of light. 2 satans disquised as 2 angels of light would be unbiblical, so you probably do not want to take that position.

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You must really re-read all of his accounts, not just the official one. Smith has claimed he saw a spirit, an angel, 2 angels, many angels, Jesus, Jesus and God. Seems like he's confused to me. Regardless, satan could have appeared with one or more of his minions, or Smith could have made the whole thing up. An actual heavenly encounter? Nope. Doesn't pass the Scripture sniff test like the Bereans (Acts 17:11).

On the other hand, God and His Son Jesus Christ standing side by side and being seen by a man is biblical. See Acts 7:56
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Stephen, the first Christian killed in the Christian Era, testified that he looked into the heavens and the heavens were opened and he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God.
If you read further, the Jews could not stand that he testified that Jesus and God were standing side by side that they rushed upon him and killed him. You see the Jews live and die on God being montheistic. Stephen, the first Christian martyr testified to them that God was not monotheistic, but was really 2 distinct individuals, and he saw 2 of Them standing side by side. They couldn't stand it and covered their ears and rushed upon him and slew him.

So why did God and Jesus show themselves standing side by side to Stephen?

It is because They wanted to make sure the word got out that They were not a 3 in 1 God, (or else when Stephen looked into the heavens, he would have only seen 1 God standing there). They accomplished their task, because his tesitmony was written and included in the bible. Stephen saw 2, not 1.

I have wanted to paint a picture of Stephen looking up into the heavens and seeing Jesus standing side by side with God. Then take that picture to any local Christian church and see what they thought. My guess is that they would be disgusted, thinking it was a picture of JS seeing Jesus and God standing side by side above him in the air. What would you do if you saw a picture of Stephen and Jesus and God, would you forbid it from being hung somewhere in the church?

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Sniff, sniff. No one has seen God. (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16, Exodus 33:20, among others)

This is where your confusion lies. If you are correct, then Jesus, John, Paul, Moses, etc. are liars. What the verses you quote refer to is seeing Jesus AS God, not God the Father himself. Re-read Acts 7:56. It says Stephen saw Jesus, not God the Father. Verse 55 says Stephen saw "the glory of God", not God the Father's actual face, body, or otherwise.

But that would go against the lds narrative, so it may be difficult to accept.

Now let's go forward to JS. In his day, the majority of Christian churches believed in the Nicean tradition and not the NT tradition. God is 3 in 1. So when JS comes out of the grove of trees and testifies that he saw Jesus standing side by side with God, IOW he saw 2, he literally a few years later was killed for that testimony, just like Stephen was killed almost 2,000 years ago.

Joseph Smith was murdered by the same men that were engaged in protecting him. The Governor of the state of Illinois made JS a promise that he would be safely guarded by the Carthage Greys, a military unit, called out by the order of the Gov. to protect JS, who had voluntarily given himself up to answer questions about a printing shop that had caught fire and was destroyed. June 27, 1844 was a black day for Illinois, as many men in the unit rushed up the stairs, broke down the door of his jail and shot him many times. JS also had a weapon smuggled into him for fear that this would happen. When the door was about to burst open, and his brother had been shot and killed, JS shot back and wounded a couple of the mob. It did not stop them and they finished their dark task.

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All the more confirms Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. A true prophet of God relies on God, not himself or a gun to protect him.

BigDaddy4 said:

You must really re-read all of his accounts, not just the official one. Smith has claimed he saw a spirit, an angel, 2 angels, many angels, Jesus, Jesus and God. Seems like he's confused to me. Regardless, satan could have appeared with one or more of his minions, or Smith could have made the whole thing up. An actual heavenly encounter? Nope. Doesn't pass the Scripture sniff test like the Bereans (Acts 17:11).



Sniff, sniff. No one has seen God. (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16, Exodus 33:20, among others)

This is where your confusion lies. If you are correct, then Jesus, John, Paul, Moses, etc. are liars. What the verses you quote refer to is seeing Jesus AS God, not God the Father himself. Re-read Acts 7:56. It says Stephen saw Jesus, not God the Father. Verse 55 says Stephen saw "the glory of God", not God the Father's actual face, body, or otherwise.

But that would go against the lds narrative, so it may be difficult to accept.



All the more confirms Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. A true prophet of God relies on God, not himself or a gun to protect him.

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I guess God killed Goliath

fatboys said:

I guess God killed Goliath

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Huh? A non-sensical answer.

BigDaddy4 said:

Huh? A non-sensical answer.

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As is yours. Look you can conjure up all the reasons Joseph Smith was deceived. You are convinced he was. That doesn't mean your right. You don't want to believe he saw God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. I'm okay with that. I am saddened that you are so hardened in your heart that you cannot even think that it could be a possibility. That even though you believe that God appeared to Moses face to face as it says in the bible that it is no longer possible for it to happen today. With all the references given to you where the bibl teach he has appeared to man you have denied it. Making excuses as to why it really didn't happen. Is your heart so hard that you could deny that God could appear to a young boy? Why on earth would you deny what God can or cannot do? You know what I would really like to know s how you know what you believe is more correct than what I believe. Who told you it was? Did God come down and sit on the edge of your bed and say "well big daddy you are spot on". Just tell me how you are so sure your right. Now I Don't want to hear that because the bible says so. The bible is just a book written by men from oral traditions. Or he history of the bible and the stories can be proven by archeology. How do you know that stuff is right? Science has as many evidences that they are right. What does that tell you? Just tell me how you know.

BigDaddy4 said:

All the more confirms Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. A true prophet of God relies on God, not himself or a gun to protect him.

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This tells me you're not familiar with the full story.

Joseph, Hyrum, and their two visitors believed that the guards had gone for reinforcements, and so planned to simply bar the door with their walking sticks until help could arrive.

Instead, the mob forced the door open wide enough that they were able to get the barrels of several guns through the gap. Once the guns were through, they fired off a volley that killed Hyrum instantly.

This made it clear to the other three that the mob meant to kill everyone simply for being Mormon; they didn't care who was behind the door so long as someone died that day. It was only then that Joseph went for the pistols.

fatboys said:

As is yours. Look you can conjure up all the reasons Joseph Smith was deceived. You are convinced he was. That doesn't mean your right. You don't want to believe he saw God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. I'm okay with that. I am saddened that you are so hardened in your heart that you cannot even think that it could be a possibility. That even though you believe that God appeared to Moses face to face as it says in the bible that it is no longer possible for it to happen today. With all the references given to you where the bibl teach he has appeared to man you have denied it. Making excuses as to why it really didn't happen. Is your heart so hard that you could deny that God could appear to a young boy? Why on earth would you deny what God can or cannot do? You know what I would really like to know s how you know what you believe is more correct than what I believe. Who told you it was? Did God come down and sit on the edge of your bed and say "well big daddy you are spot on". Just tell me how you are so sure your right. Now I Don't want to hear that because the bible says so. The bible is just a book written by men from oral traditions. Or he history of the bible and the stories can be proven by archeology. How do you know that stuff is right? Science has as many evidences that they are right. What does that tell you? Just tell me how you know.

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If I were to agree with you then we would both be wrong and against what the Bible actually says, not what you want it to say. But by your words, you don't believe in the Bible as Gods word ("just a book"). Your choice, which you alone will have to account for.

If God the Father appeared to a man, either in the OT or the NT or 1820's or now, that would make God a liar.

Still waiting for you to actually provide scriptural references in your posts.

Ironhold said:

This tells me you're not familiar with the full story.

Joseph, Hyrum, and their two visitors believed that the guards had gone for reinforcements, and so planned to simply bar the door with their walking sticks until help could arrive.

Instead, the mob forced the door open wide enough that they were able to get the barrels of several guns through the gap. Once the guns were through, they fired off a volley that killed Hyrum instantly.

This made it clear to the other three that the mob meant to kill everyone simply for being Mormon; they didn't care who was behind the door so long as someone died that day. It was only then that Joseph went for the pistols.

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I am familiar with the full story and it does not change my position.

BigDaddy4 said:

You must really re-read all of his accounts, not just the official one. Smith has claimed he saw a spirit, an angel, 2 angels, many angels, Jesus, Jesus and God. Seems like he's confused to me. Regardless, satan could have appeared with one or more of his minions, or Smith could have made the whole thing up. An actual heavenly encounter? Nope. Doesn't pass the Scripture sniff test like the Bereans (Acts 17:11).



Sniff, sniff. No one has seen God. (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16, Exodus 33:20, among others)

This is where your confusion lies. If you are correct, then Jesus, John, Paul, Moses, etc. are liars. What the verses you quote refer to is seeing Jesus AS God, not God the Father himself. Re-read Acts 7:56. It says Stephen saw Jesus, not God the Father. Verse 55 says Stephen saw "the glory of God", not God the Father's actual face, body, or otherwise.

But that would go against the lds narrative, so it may be difficult to accept.



All the more confirms Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. A true prophet of God relies on God, not himself or a gun to protect him.

Click to expand...

BigDaddy4:
Smith has claimed he saw a spirit, an angel, 2 angels, many angels, Jesus, Jesus and God. Seems like he's confused to me.

The reason JS wrote his history, which included the first vision, was because so many erroneous reports were flying around the country as to what had happened. You have to believe the excitement in the air, when a young man steps forward and says that he saw God and that he was told the true church of Jesus Christ was not on the earth at the time. Wow, what a sensational story, right? Well, you know that was not going to sit well with the well established churches of the day and so many interesting and false stories started to circulate.

But it is true that JS saw God and Jesus, he also saw many angels, he also saw resurrected angels and spirit beings, but it was not confusing except if one tries hard to make it confusing. The heavens were again communicating with earth in a direct manner and bringing the true church of Jesus Christ back to the earth. For instance, one of the reasons I am a Mormon is because when JS was translating the BOM, he translated an event where priests were baptizing people, and it came to his mind that this could be a possibility with his situation, but he knew he had never been to a pastor school and had not been trained for the ministry, so he felt like he was not authorized to baptize. So he and his friend that was helping him translate went to pray about these things, and while they were praying John the Baptist appeared to them and gave them the authority to baptize. (The Aaronic Priesthood), then a few months later, Peter, James, and John, the 3 pillars of the church at Jesus's time, appeared to them and layed their hands on their heads and gave them the Melchisedec Priesthood and the same keys that Peter received from Jesus himself. If this doesn't happen, I am not a Mormon. If JS does not see God and Jesus and other angels, I am not a Mormon. It is because of these things, that I am a Mormon.


BigDaddy4:
An actual heavenly encounter? Nope. Doesn't pass the Scripture sniff test like the Bereans (Acts 17:11).

So you say it doesn't pass the scripture sniff test and then you refer us to Acts 17:11? These are people reading the scriptures, but only the OT because the NT didn't even exist yet. I'm not sure how that supports one way or the other that the first vision of Joseph Smith passes a scripture sniff test.

Maybe you should have referred us to Moses, when he first saw God, but all he saw was a burning bush and out of the burning bush words entered his mind and he knew the mind and will of God. Now if you had compared Moses's vision to Joseph Smith's vision then you could have said, hey, wait a minute, Joseph didn't say anything about a burning bush, so this couldn't have been a true vision because it doesn't pass the Moses-vision-scripture-sniff-test. Now, I have a pretty good idea why you didn't refer us to Moses, and it is because then in order for any prophet's vision of God to pass the scripture sniff test, there would have had to be a burning bush present, and we know that didn't happen ever again, so you referred us to people reading the OT. Acts 17:11 doesn't claim they were seeing a vision of God or anything of the sorts, so can you explain to me why JS's first vision did not pass the scripture sniff test per Acts 17:11?

BigDaddy4:
Sniff, sniff. No one has seen God. (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12, John 5:37, 1 Timothy 6:16, Exodus 33:20, among others)

How many scriptures can I quote you where God the Father has been seen by men? I can think of 2.
So who is lying? We are both using the bible. So who is lying?
Let's take a closer look at Acts 7:55-56
55 But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man (Jesus) standing on the right hand of God.

So in 55 Stephen not only sees the glory of God the Father, but also sees Jesus standing on the right hand of God the Father. In 56 Stephen then tells the Jews what he sees, and it is that he sees Jesus standing on the right side of God the Father. It must have been important to God the Father and Jesus to make sure the 2 of them were seen together, side by side, because the same thing is said twice in 2 verses in the bible, one after the other, for emphasis. God the Father did that so the Christian world would know Him and that He, in His glory, had been seen, and that He and His Son Jesus are 2 separate and distinct individuals.

Good scripture to support fundamental nature of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Also now, at least 1 man has seen God the Father and Jesus together.

The second man to see Him is John, the Relvelator.
See Rev. 4:2-3
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne (God the Father).
3 And he that sat (God the Father) was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

See also Rev. 5:5 & 7 to show that God the Father and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals:
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, (Jesus) hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
7 And he (Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne (God the Father).

Clearly, this is the second man to see God the Father and Jesus together.

BigDaddy4
All the more confirms Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. A true prophet of God relies on God, not himself or a gun to protect him.

All of the apostles of Jesus Christ died horribly, I guess if they had been true apostles, God would have protected them. This is a silly statement, just like yours. Sometimes God allows his servants to be murdered so as to seal their testimonies with their blood. JS sealed his testimony with his blood.