LDS LDS, The Father, and the Trinity

rockytopva said:

"The Omnipotent Father, with his thunder made Olympus to tremble" - Ovid

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No the immovable mover of all things, that immaterial mind of nothing which controls the universe by simply thinking.

Most of you Trinity people have no idea where the idea came from.

withwonderingawe said:

No the immovable mover of all things, that immaterial mind of nothing which controls the universe by simply thinking.

Most of you Trinity people have no idea where the idea came from.

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You have no idea where it came from because you don't listen and you don't understand where in the Bible it came from that's not our fault if the Mormons were more into the Bible and do what the Bible said that they would know where it's coming from.

So which member of the Trinity do you doubt is that the father is that the sun is that the Holy Spirit is it all three is a two out of three you've never really made your case for what you people believe

ToBeLoved said:

You have no idea where it came from because you don't listen and you don't understand where in the Bible it came from that's not our fault if the Mormons were more into the Bible and do what the Bible said that they would know where it's coming from

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The "immovable mover" is a concept originating in pagan Greek philosophy, not the Bible.

"The unmoved mover (Ancient Greek: ὃ οὐ κινούμενος κινεῖ,[1]ho ou kinoúmenos kineî, "that which moves without being moved") or prime mover(Latin: primum movens) is a monotheistic concept advanced by Aristotle, a polytheist,[2][3] as a primary cause or "mover" of all the motion in the universe.[4] As is implicit in the name, the "unmoved mover" moves other things, but is not itself moved by any prior action. In Book 12 (Greek "Λ") of his Metaphysics, Aristotle describes the unmoved mover as being perfectly beautiful, indivisible, and contemplating only the perfect contemplation: itself contemplating. He equates this concept also with the Active Intellect. This Aristotelian concept had its roots in cosmological speculations of the earliest Greek "Pre-Socratic" philosophers and became highly influential and widely drawn upon in medieval philosophy and theology. St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, elaborated on the Unmoved Mover in the Quinque vice."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

Jane_Doe said:

The "immovable mover" is a concept originating in pagan Greek philosophy, not the Bible.

"The unmoved mover (Ancient Greek: ὃ οὐ κινούμενος κινεῖ,[1]ho ou kinoúmenos kineî, "that which moves without being moved") or prime mover(Latin: primum movens) is a monotheistic concept advanced by Aristotle, a polytheist,[2][3] as a primary cause or "mover" of all the motion in the universe.[4] As is implicit in the name, the "unmoved mover" moves other things, but is not itself moved by any prior action. In Book 12 (Greek "Λ") of his Metaphysics, Aristotle describes the unmoved mover as being perfectly beautiful, indivisible, and contemplating only the perfect contemplation: itself contemplating. He equates this concept also with the Active Intellect. This Aristotelian concept had its roots in cosmological speculations of the earliest Greek "Pre-Socratic" philosophers and became highly influential and widely drawn upon in medieval philosophy and theology. St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, elaborated on the Unmoved Mover in the Quinque vice."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

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Then you need to talk to your mom or mom brother since he's the one who's talking all this unmovable mover that's not a Christian philosophy at all that's a Mormon thing that your brother Peter brought up

ToBeLoved said:

Then you need to talk to your mom or mom brother since he's the one who's talking all this unmovable mover that's not a Christian philosophy at all that's a Mormon thing that your brother Peter brought up

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Actually, the "unmovable mover" isn't Mormon theology at all, by mainstream Christianity. This originally came up as an example of how mainstream Christianity is heavily rooted in pagan ideas.

Jane_Doe said:

Actually, the "unmovable mover" isn't Mormon theology at all, by mainstream Christianity. This originally came up as an example of how mainstream Christianity is heavily rooted in pagan ideas.

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Well. Someone is lying to you.

A lot of things are said by Mormonism about Christianity that is not true.

Maybe you guys should be researching the stuff your church tells you.

ToBeLoved said:

Well. Someone is lying to you.

A lot of things are said by Mormonism about Christianity that is not true.

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Actually, my assessment about mainstream Christianity using the concept the the "immovable mover" comes from first-hand talking with dozens of mainstream Christians who champion this idea and frequently call me a "non-Christian" for not believing it.

It's entirely possible that you (TBL) don't champion this idea, nor your congregation. There is much variety of beliefs in the Christian umbrella of beliefs.

ToBeLoved said:

Then you need to talk to your mom or mom brother since he's the one who's talking all this unmovable mover that's not a Christian philosophy at all that's a Mormon thing that your brother Peter brought up

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Beloved you really don’t know do you, it's one of those secrets about Christianity you'll never learn from your minister.

Open up your mind and learn the truth about your god.

1, The word Greek word logos means to reason, if you do a math problem in your head then you are logos-ing. If you then teach that problem to a class of kids you are showing the logos-ing or reason of your mine. John wrote

“Then went this saying/logos abroad ……” John 21

You could send out reasoning for others to comprehend or reason through themselves. That is the basic meaning of the word and how a Hebrew man like John would have understood it. Jesus and his atonement was the reason of God and he sent him into the world to give us the Father's message/logos.

2, However the Greeks loved reasoning, thy sat around in their schools trying to out reason each other. At some point “to reason” took on a will and personality of it's own as if reasoning was a being, reason became god.

In fact ‘to be’ was to exist and they reasoned that the only thing which really existed was God/theos all the rest was what he thought into existence or ‘not being’, it all gets very complicated, but at the heart of it was monotheism.

“from wik “ a monotheistic concept advanced by Aristotle, a polytheist, as a primary cause or "mover" of all the motion in the universe”

3, The Greeks reasoned that because they were physical beings and could not see into the next room let alone the other side of the world God could not be a physical being so they came up with this idea of pure mind. They believed reasoning could exist outside of outside of matter. This ‘immoveable mover’ would not move because that would imply imperfection.

4, They set up this system where this pure mind would logos/reason into being a lesser god like Jupiter or Diana for them to worship. This made it possible for there to be different gods in different countries and for these gods to act like silly children fighting between themselves.

5, The important point here is that every good little Roman boy was taught Greek philosophy, that God was pure mind without any material substances was just a given fact in their minds.

6, The first generation Christians were mostly made up of Jews with a few Romans and Greeks. Men like Saul were sent out to round them up to be killed. Between the Jews and the Roman persecution not many of them lasted beyond 100 ad. Add to that the false teachers which Paul warned of there weren’t any left to pass on the true teachings.

7, So the second and third generation Christian were converted Romans whose basic assumption about reality was that god was pure mind. The early apologist were trying to reason to other Romans the truth about their God and it didn’t take long to make the argument that God the Father was this pure mind of Greek philosophy and Jesus was his logos.

Ah-la the immaterial Trinity and the apostasy which Amos and many others prophesied would happen.

withwonderingawe do you know Greek?

it's one of those secrets about Christianity you'll never learn from your minister.

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And what does this mean?

ToBeLoved said:

Well. Someone is lying to you.

A lot of things are said by Mormonism about Christianity that is not true.

Maybe you guys should be researching the stuff your church tells you.

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Actually it wasn't "the Church" never even comes up in church, it came from a book I read written by a man who was a church member and he was quoting a lot of non Mormon scholars.

How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God

Maybe you should study a little more about what your leaders are telling you!

Jane_Doe said:

Actually, my assessment about mainstream Christianity using the concept the the "immovable mover" comes from first-hand talking with dozens of mainstream Christians who champion this idea and frequently call me a "non-Christian" for not believing it.

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I have been a pastor for forty years in several cities and I have not heard this term used except in my church history and philosophy classes. A few anecdotes do not prove anything.

withwonderingawe said:

Actually it wasn't "the Church" never even comes up in church, it came from a book I read written by a man who was a church member and he was quoting a lot of non Mormon scholars.

How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God

Maybe you should study a little more about what your leaders are telling you!

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29% give it one star.

Are these his credentials?

He was a lawyer for over twenty years in southern California.

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drstevej said:

withwonderingawe do you know Greek?



And what does this mean?

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It’s a tit for tat


I’m taking this from an article at Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy called History of Trinitarian Doctrines.

This quote is found right in the introduction,

“….Justin Martyr (d. ca. 165) describes the origin of the logos (= the pre-human Jesus) from God using three metaphors (light from the sun, fire from fire, speaker and his speech), each of which is found in either Philo or Numenius (Gaston 2007, 53). Accepting the Philonic thesis that Plato and other Greek philosophers received their wisdom from Moses, he holds that Plato in his dialogue Timaeus discussed the Son (logos), as, Justin says, “the power next to the first God”. And in Plato's second letter, Justin finds a mention of a third, the Holy Spirit (Justin, First Apology, 60). As with the Middle Platonists, Justin's triad is hierarchical or ordered. And Justin's scheme is not, properly, trinitarian. The one God is not the three, but rather one of them and the primary one, the ultimate source of the second and third.

Justin and later second century Christians influenced by Platonism take over a concept of divine transcendence from Platonism, in light of which

no one with even the slightest intelligence would dare to assert that the Creator of all things left his super-celestial realms to make himself visible in a little spot on earth. (Justin, Dialogue, 92 [ch. 60])
Consequently, any biblical theophany (appearance of a god) on earth, as well as the actual labor of creation, can't have been the action of the highest god, God, but must instead have been done by another one called “God” and “Lord”, namely the logos, the pre-human Jesus, also called “the angel of the Lord”.

The problem is the Greeks didn’t get their wisdom from Moses, Moses worshiped a God who could see, hear, smell and eat. His God was not an immaterial substance. The God of the New Testament shows himself to Stephen and Jesus stands on his right hand cause he has one.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html#Intro

drstevej said:

29% give it one star.

Are these his credentials?

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He was a very will read man, and of course people aren't going to like it, it disrupts their concept of reality.

Let me add here, Hopkins is addressing an article by Francis Beck, "Philosophical Problems with the Mormon Concept of God" Published by Christian Research Journal. So he's looking at the Trinity through those eyes and explained by them. He's taking Greek philosophy and making a comparison to the different points Beck makes in his article.

Jane_Doe said:

Actually, my assessment about mainstream Christianity using the concept the the "immovable mover" comes from first-hand talking with dozens of mainstream Christians who champion this idea and frequently call me a "non-Christian" for not believing it.

It's entirely possible that you (TBL) don't champion this idea, nor your congregation. There is much variety of beliefs in the Christian umbrella of beliefs.

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What Christian denomination? Sounds like heresay/gossip.

drstevej said:

29% give it one star.

Are these his credentials?

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It is a weak debate tactic to question the messenger when one can not respond to the message.

I'll add this again so you don't miss it.
Hopkins is addressing an article by Francis Beck, "Philosophical Problems with the Mormon Concept of God" Published by Christian Research Journal. So he's looking at the Trinity through those eyes and explained by them. He's taking Greek philosophy and making a comparison to the different points Beck makes in his article.

Never Heard of this guy Francis Beck. What are his credentials?

drstevej said:

Never Heard of this guy Francis Beck. What are his credentials?

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Sorry, Beckwith
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_J._Beckwith

withwonderingawe said:

Sorry, Beckwith
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_J._Beckwith

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Thanks for the link.