LDS LDS: The Book of Mormon

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

throughfireytrial said:
Why should anyone assign authority to that book then when its existence goes against Scripture itself?

I'm going to focus on this statement for the moment.

What specific arguments do you wish to use to try and argue that the Bible says there should be a closed canon?

Most of the more common arguments used by critics of the church to this effect have fallen flat.

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

throughfireytrial said:
The Bible is for all people...
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. --Galations 3:27-29

I think you misunderstand me.

Even though each work records the dealings God had with a different group of people, the record is for everyone.

throughfiierytrial · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
I'm going to focus on this statement for the moment.
What specific arguments do you wish to use to try and argue that the Bible says there should be a closed canon?
Most of the more common arguments used by critics of the church to this effect have fallen flat.

I Corinthians 4:6:
so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

II John 1:9:
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18-19:
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Galations 1:6-9:
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

We also have Paul’s epistles to the churches warning of false Gospels being circulated, as an example:

II Thessalonians 2:1-2:
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

We see the damage additional teaches present here:

Mark 7:6-13:
He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Luke 11:45-52
One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

BigDaddy4 · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
The Bible and Book of Mormon are considered companion texts, in that they are to be taken together.

You see, the Bible contains God's word to the Middle East, while the Book of Mormon contains God's word to Central America. That they so completely echo each other is testament to the fact that God's word is the same no matter where you are in the world.

And yet one comes with a disclaimer, while the other does not.

LDS Article of Faith #8:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." (italics mine)

Odd that we have thousands of manuscripts in the original languages for the Bible to verify correct translations, but no such thing for the BoM, and no such disclaimer.

I would say the lds hold the BoM higher in authority than the Bible.

ToBeLoved · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
The Bible and Book of Mormon are considered companion texts, in that they are to be taken together.

You see, the Bible contains God's word to the Middle East, while the Book of Mormon contains God's word to Central America. That they so completely echo each other is testament to the fact that God's word is the same no matter where you are in the world.

Why would the book of mormon be to Central America?

Also, I am in such huge disagreement I can barely contain myself that you said 'they so completely echo each other is testament to the fact that God's word is the same'.

How in the world can you even make that statement? That makes me wonder indeed what understanding you even have of the Bible. I see that statement as you being so blind to even God's character and any words that are contained in the Bible. It is undeniable. I cannot get over that. That you could make that statement at all.

SeekerOfChrist94 · Nov 19, 2015

Ironhold said:
No.

The church holds quite strongly to James 2, which states that a person's profession of faith is meaningless unless their actions and lifestyle back them up.

In that sense, we hold that salvation is not by either "faith" or "works" alone, but that one should support the other.

Unfortunately, so many critics of the church mistakenly believe this "hand-in-hand" approach to be "salvation by works" that this false perception has spread.

2 Nephi 25:23
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

I used to be Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is very much a salvation by works kind of church. The temple ceremonies are indeed works and they are required for salvation in the church's mind. So you must go through the temple ceremonies and 'follow the Prophet,' and only then do they believe that Christ can save you.

SeekerOfChrist94 · Nov 19, 2015

BigDaddy4 said:
And yet one comes with a disclaimer, while the other does not.

LDS Article of Faith #8:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." (italics mine)

Odd that we have thousands of manuscripts in the original languages for the Bible to verify correct translations, but no such thing for the BoM, and no such disclaimer.

I would say the lds hold the BoM higher in authority than the Bible.

You are correct.

President James E. Faust said this in 2004 in his talk titled 'The Keystone of Our Religion ' in regards to the Book of Mormon. The talk can be found here. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/01/the-keystone-of-our-religion?lang=eng

"Why a Keystone?

Joseph Smith, who translated the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon came, had this to say: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

One dictionary defines keystone as “the central wedge-shaped stone of an arch that locks its parts together.” A secondary definition is “the central supporting element of a whole.”"

So the Book of Mormon is the central point of their faith, not Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is the center of everything in the church. The Prophet Joseph Smith even states it himself that the Book of Mormon is more correct than any other book, so that includes the Bible.

SeekerOfChrist94 · Nov 19, 2015

The Book of Mormon itself as a whole is a false gospel.

Galatians 1:8 taken from the LDS version of the Bible
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

2 Corinthians 11:14 taken from the same LDS Bible
"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

JS History 1:30-34 found here https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng
"30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.

32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.

33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;"

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

BigDaddy4 said:
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;" (italics mine)

Would a mainstream Christian trust a Bible version that is NOT translated correctly?

I'm failing to see your point here...

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Why would the book of mormon be to Central America?

I'm not completely sure what you're asking here...

The Book of Mormon is the story of people trying to follow God in the Americas. Like the Bible is the story of people trying to follow God in the Middle East.

ToBeLoved said:
Also, I am in such huge disagreement I can barely contain myself that you said 'they so completely echo each other is testament to the fact that God's word is the same'.

Could you provide an example of the contradiction you're supposedly seeing?

In my experience, the question is frequently prompted by people thinking ABC is in the Book of Mormon when it's not, and people thinking XYZ is in the Bible when it's not.

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

SeekerOfChrist94 said:
2 Nephi 25:23
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Being a follow Christ IS work- lots of it. God did not send His son to die for us so we can say "thanks" and continue on sitting on our butts all day. No-- God gave many commandments throughout scripture: to love your neighbor, help each other, preach the Gospel, etc. I would suggest that any person whom claims Christ and just sits on their butt all day is NOT a follow of Christ at all, because as James said: "Faith without works is dead".

Would you say that being a follow of Christ doesn't involve work?

throughfiierytrial · Nov 19, 2015

Jane_Doe said:
I'm not completely sure what you're asking here...
The Book of Mormon is the story of people trying to follow God in the Americas. Like the Bible is the story of people trying to follow God in the Middle East.

I have previously cited Scripture which proved the BIBLE was preached to every creature under heaven, again:
Colossians 1:23:
This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

As Christians we are told not to take Gospel from strangers...we already have the real thing...correct?
(Plates are reported to have been written around 400A.D.)

And this may be quite disjointed in my asking it on this post, but water is exceptible for communion? Scripture says "fruit of the vine".

throughfiierytrial · Nov 19, 2015

Sorry my post was so messy please expand the "quote", it's my post.
Also I said exceptible instead of acceptable.

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

throughfireytrial said:
I have previously cited Scripture which proved the BIBLE was preached to every creature under heaven, again:
Colossians 1:23:
This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Ok, I'm seeing where we're disconnecting now.

Yes, I would totally agree with you that the Bible is preached for the benefit of all people, regardless of that person's time or location. Previously I was referring to the time and location of which story events occurred, Middle East for the Bible and America's for the Book of Mormon.

I did not mean to imply that a person living in America nowadays cannot benefit from the Bible- heck, I'm in the US and our LDS Sunday School lesson this week is on Timothy.

Where I'm guessing you and I differ in beliefs is that I believe that God gives answers to all that knock, regardless of their time or place: God spoke to people outside of the Middle East in ancient times, and still speak to us today. Hence, why Mormons are open to the idea of God-breathed words which were recorded in ancient America (the Book of Mormon), and God-breathed words today (an open cannon of modern revelation).

throughfireytrial said:
As Christians we are told not to take Gospel from strangers...we already have the real thing...correct?

Where's it say that?

I read it says "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25) and "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16)

ToBeLoved · Nov 19, 2015

Jane_Doe said:
Where I'm guessing you and I differ in beliefs is that I believe that God gives answers to all that knock, regardless of their time or place: God spoke to people outside of the Middle East in ancient times, and still speak to us today. Hence, why Mormons are open to the idea of God-breathed words which were recorded in ancient America (the Book of Mormon), and God-breathed words today (an open cannon of modern revelation).

So, correct me if I am wrong, but from your statement I am concluding:

1) You believe that the book of mormon is God-breathed?

2) Why have their not been addional books, like the book of mormon II or some other authorative text since Joseph Smith?

Because if there are God breathed words even being revealed today, why are they not written down and studied by you guys? I mean God-breathed must mean it is the truth right, unless you believe that God is not holy and makes mistakes or something.

What makes the revelation to Joseph Smith worth more than any other what you consider to be God-breathed revelation?

I hope I said that in a clear way. I think i did.

BigDaddy4 · Nov 19, 2015

Jane_Doe said:
Would a mainstream Christian trust a Bible version that is NOT translated correctly?

I'm failing to see your point here...

Why does the BoM not have that distinction, that it needs to be "translated correctly"? Given the 3000+ errors and corrections from the original "translation" it would seem to not be "translated correctly". How does one verify that is was translated correctly? Short answer, you can't. The Bible you can. One is "more correct" than the other, and it cannot be the BoM.

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
1) You believe that the book of mormon is God-breathed?

Yes.

ToBeLoved said:
2) Why have their not been addional books, like the book of mormon II or some other authorative text since Joseph Smith?

Modern day revelations are recorded in a volume of scripture called "The Doctrine and Covenants" and is updated as revelations are revealed. They are studied.

ToBeLoved said:
I mean God-breathed must mean it is the truth right, unless you believe that God is not holy and makes mistakes or something.

I do believe that God is perfect. Humans, on the other hand, make mistakes all the time.

ToBeLoved said:
What makes the revelation to Joseph Smith worth more than any other what you consider to be God-breathed revelation?

It all goes together, side by side. Just like Mark goes besides Samuel and James.

Jane_Doe · Nov 19, 2015

BigDaddy4 said:
Why does the BoM not have that distinction, that it needs to be "translated correctly"? Given the 3000+ errors and corrections from the original "translation" it would seem to not be "translated correctly". How does one verify that is was translated correctly? Short answer, you can't. The Bible you can. One is "more correct" than the other, and it cannot be the BoM.

From the Mormon POV, it's a matter of trusting God at the helm, rather than a bunch of uninspired men (no matter how numerous they may be).

Obviously, I respect your opinion too (even though I disagree).

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

throughfireytrial said:
I Corinthians 4:6:
so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

Which translation are you using?

This is how it is presented in the KJV:

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

The KJV rendering makes it sound as if the verse has nothing to do with the canon.

II John 1:9:
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The KJV rendering also appears to have nothing to do with the canon being closed.

Revelation 22:18-19:
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

The "scroll" in question is Revelation itself, not the Bible. This is the most commonly-used argument on behalf of a closed canon, and is also the easiest to disprove. Remember, the Bible as we know it was not compiled for some time after the writers wrote.

Galations 1:6-9:
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

This is another one that gets pretty quickly tabled: who is the angel in Revelation that is supposed to have the gospel? And if no angel is supposed to deliver one, then does that not conflict?

II Thessalonians 2:1-2:
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

This passage was in direct response to activities of the day. Many of the churches that Paul had helped to plant were already backsliding or going off into apostasy, leaving Paul to warn the leaders about the situation.

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

How does this apply to anyone but the leadership of that day?

Ditto for the next passage.

Ironhold · Nov 19, 2015

BigDaddy4 said:
And yet one comes with a disclaimer, while the other does not.

LDS Article of Faith #8:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." (italics mine)

Odd that we have thousands of manuscripts in the original languages for the Bible to verify correct translations, but no such thing for the BoM, and no such disclaimer.

I would say the lds hold the BoM higher in authority than the Bible.

When you consider how many hands the Bible has passed through and how many different attempts there have been at translating it, I think you can understand at least some degree of "look before you leap".

Even on this very website we've had issues with people using different translations of the Bible, only to find that the different translations render things in surprisingly different ways.

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