LDS teachings on God

TheBarrd said:

I think we have sort of gotten off the topic of this thread.

I, for one, still need this doctrine clarified.

Thank you.

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Although a part of the theology, it's not something you see shouted from the rooftops due to the need to make sure people understand the basics of the faith first.

Didn't I link you to some lessons a bit back?

Ironhold said:

Didn't I link you to some lessons a bit back?

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I know someone did and the link fully explained the whole doctrine in a clear and detailed manner.

Ran77 said:

I know someone did and the link fully explained the whole doctrine in a clear and detailed manner.

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I believe it was TasteForTruth who gave me the link you guys are thinking of.

I suppose you think you have thoroughly explained how god could be a man from another world...but to me it sounds an awful lot like science fiction.
Throw in the notion that this other world was ruled by another god, who was also born on yet another world, which was ruled by still another god, who was also born on yet another world, which was ruled by still another god, who was...well, after awhile it gets a bit ridiculous. Each of these gods "exalts" the god after him to his high position...and who know how many others?
LDS acknowledge this, and must allow for an infinite progression of these gods...and yet, they adamantly insist that they worship only the One True God.
And it gets better. Each of these gods must create his own kingdom/universe/solar system/planet himself...but he gets to use pre-existing intelligent matter. In other words, this matter is eternal...but god is not.
I've said it before...I am not interested in worshiping these little gods. I want the guy who had the power in the first place to get the god-ball rolling. Who was the first god, and how did he get to be god?
Please don't tell me it was Adam...have a little respect for my intelligence. Or at least for your own...

LDS really needs to address this if they expect to be take seriously by mainstream Christians. A God Who existed before there was anything else, a God Who willed the Cosmos into existence at His Word...this God makes much more sense than an infinite progression of man-gods. And pre-existing intelligent matter...well, I know it is not polite to giggle...but how much restraint are we supposed to possess?

Please, if there is something you are not telling us, give!
Or if it is a "Temple Secret" or some such thing, say so. Please don't keep pretending that this god-exalts-god ad infinitum actually makes sense, or that there is any reason we ought to accept it.
Thank you.

We've given you what there is.

Your average Mormon spends far less time dwelling on the matter than your average critic does.

Ironhold said:

We've given you what there is.

Your average Mormon spends far less time dwelling on the matter than your average critic does.

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If the average Mormon spent more time on this maybe they would see the problems rather than just nodding and swallowing.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

TheBarrd said:

LDS really needs to address this if they expect to be take seriously by mainstream Christians. A God Who existed before there was anything else, a God Who willed the Cosmos into existence at His Word...this God makes much more sense than an infinite progression of man-gods. And pre-existing intelligent matter...well, I know it is not polite to giggle...but how much restraint are we supposed to possess?

Please, if there is something you are not telling us, give!
Or if it is a "Temple Secret" or some such thing, say so. Please don't keep pretending that this god-exalts-god ad infinitum actually makes sense, or that there is any reason we ought to accept it.
Thank you.

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Matthew 11:27
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

RevelationTestament said:

Matthew 11:27
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

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Calvin was a Jesus-ist!

drstevej said:

If the average Mormon spent more time on this maybe they would see the problems rather than just nodding and swallowing.

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That's kinda rude.

You're basically accusing us of being ignorant.

Not cool.

Smart remarks like that tend to move people towards us instead of away because they don't reflect Christ's light.

drstevej said:

If the average Mormon spent more time on this maybe they would see the problems rather than just nodding and swallowing.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

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and we know that those noble Bereans didn't have access to the BoM or any of the many other LDS works we've heard about in these threads.

TheBarrd said:

I believe it was TasteForTruth who gave me the link you guys are thinking of.

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Okay. I would highly recommend using that link. It explained the topic quite well.

TheBarrd said:

I suppose you think you have thoroughly explained how god could be a man from another world...but to me it sounds an awful lot like science fiction.

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It will as long as our critics continue to present it in a manner to make it sound like science fiction.

TheBarrd said:

Throw in the notion that this other world was ruled by another god, who was also born on yet another world, which was ruled by still another god, who was also born on yet another world, which was ruled by still another god, who was...well, after awhile it gets a bit ridiculous. Each of these gods "exalts" the god after him to his high position...and who know how many others?

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Except, this is really what our critics bring into the discussion. The LDS are unconcerned about this. Heavenly Father is our God. Heavenly Father was mortal in the same way the Jesus was mortal. What we see is a natural progression. Just as cats have kittens who grow up to be cats God created mankind in His own image so that we can grow up to be like Him. That makes a lot more sense than a formless being of pure spirit randomly creating a physical universe and selecting one of the life forms in that universe to either join Him in eternal bliss or suffer never-ending torture.

TheBarrd said:

LDS acknowledge this, and must allow for an infinite progression of these gods...and yet, they adamantly insist that they worship only the One True God.
And it gets better. Each of these gods must create his own kingdom/universe/solar system/planet himself...but he gets to use pre-existing intelligent matter. In other words, this matter is eternal...but god is not.

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You have mentioned this before - ad nauseam. And continue to get it wrong. At this point I have to suspect that the misrepresentation is on purpose.

TheBarrd said:

I've said it before...I am not interested in worshiping these little gods.

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Which is funny, because the LDS have said all along that they are not interesting in worshipping any other God. It is you who bring up the topic of other gods existing. It is you who are focused on them. The constant regurgitation of this argument really bores me.

TheBarrd said:

I want the guy who had the power in the first place to get the god-ball rolling. Who was the first god, and how did he get to be god?

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Since you don't believe this, why should want anyone in the chain?

Not only that, but if our critics cannot understand the basics of this doctrine to present it correctly, how can they ever hope to understand the advanced concepts of time, space, and the existence of intelligences which would answer these questions? I actually find it laughable that anyone could think that mankind, in its present state, has the capability of understanding the full nature of the universe and everything within it or outside of it. We have limited knowledge and can only see a part of the full picture. But that is the hubris of mankind; to think we can make definitive statements on things we only partially know.

:o

TheBarrd said:

LDS really needs to address this if they expect to be take seriously by mainstream Christians.

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Are you kidding? Regardless of what we do the mainstream Christians are not going to take us seriously. This forum proves that. Your own posts are full of comments and word choices that don't promote understanding, but instead serve to criticize the LDS and belittle our doctrines.

TheBarrd said:

A God Who existed before there was anything else,

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You mean Heavenly Father and Jesus?

TheBarrd said:

. . .a God Who willed the Cosmos into existence at His Word...

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You mean Heavenly Father and Jesus.

TheBarrd said:

. . . this God makes much more sense than an infinite progression of man-gods.

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You're welcome to think that.

TheBarrd said:

And pre-existing intelligent matter...well, I know it is not polite to giggle...but how much restraint are we supposed to possess?

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Ah, there it is. The unnecessary comment intended to belittle LDS beliefs. Throwing in these little jabs at the LDS puts distance between both sides. It tells me that the person using them is not interested in understanding what we believe, but merely wants to mock those beliefs.

TheBarrd said:

Please, if there is something you are not telling us, give!
Or if it is a "Temple Secret" or some such thing, say so. Please don't keep pretending that this god-exalts-god ad infinitum actually makes sense, or that there is any reason we ought to accept it.
Thank you.

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This statement reminds me of when the images first came out, about 25 years ago, that if you stared at it long enough you would see a 3D image. Those people who hadn't experienced it for themselves made similar statements as yours. "Please don't tell me that you see something." Not only is this an insult (offering as a supposed fact that we are pretending something makes sense when we know does not), but it really demonstrates a blind spot. You don't allow for the possibility that something has clicked for us so that we get it and you haven't reached a point where it clicks for you.

As for reasons for you to accept it - Don't. Be my guest to reject it. I encourage everyone to do what makes sense to them. In the end, we will all stand before God and be held accountable for our choices. Since each of us alone will bear the consequences of our actions it is only reasonable that we act on what we think is right.

RevelationTestament said:

Matthew 11:27
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

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So, wait...are you saying that the Son did not reveal the Father to His apostles?
When we read the gospel stories in the Bible, aren't we reading about the Son, and the things He said and did?
Certainly the Son revealed the Father to Paul, and to John the Revelator...
Surely you are not trying to say that the Son revealed the Father to Joseph Smith, alone???????

Ironhold said:

We've given you what there is.

Your average Mormon spends far less time dwelling on the matter than your average critic does.

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You have spoken truth, Sir. I seriously wish I'd spent a lot more time on it during my forty years LDS. If I had not just accepted it simply because "when the prophet speaks, the debate is over"* (being absolutely certain, of course, that the Holy Ghost would confirm the prophet's words to me any time I asked), I'd like to think that it wouldn't have taken me so long to figure out that it was very, very wrong.

** https://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/08/the-debate-is-over?lang=eng

Ran77 said:

Except, this is really what our critics bring into the discussion. The LDS are unconcerned about this. Heavenly Father is our God. Heavenly Father was mortal in the same way the Jesus was mortal. What we see is a natural progression. Just as cats have kittens who grow up to be cats God created mankind in His own image so that we can grow up to be like Him. That makes a lot more sense than a formless being of pure spirit randomly creating a physical universe and selecting one of the life forms in that universe to either join Him in eternal bliss or suffer never-ending torture.

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Who created the mortal Heavenly Father?

Ironhold said:

That's kinda rude.

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Actually, I found it to be more disconnected from reality than rude. I haven't seen any LDS nodding and swallowing. Perhaps it is an attempt at creative fiction. We could try the same thing.

<Insert name here> logged onto to his/her computer. Hands trembled in fear as they typed their password. Those Mormons were going to be on the forum. Their faith was unshakable. Their arguments impossible to refute. He/She knew it was a wasted effort to go up against them, but the voices his/her head said to try.

"No!" <Insert name here> pounded his/her fist on the desktop. "I can't live the lie any longer. The LDS are too good a people to deserve this kind of treatment. I must convert. You hear that voices - I'm going to convert."




That's awesome. I really had fun. I think we should all practice this kind of disassociated fictional writing.

BigDaddy4 said:

Who created the mortal Heavenly Father?

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Don't know. Don't care.

Ran77 said:

Don't know. Don't care.

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There it is!
This is what I have suspected all along.
Of course, you don't know...that was a given from the beginning.

It's that "Don't care." that ties it all up.
As Dr. Steve puts it, you "nod and swallow"...because you do not care.

Ironhold said:

That's kinda rude.

You're basically accusing us of being ignorant.

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You are the one who said...

Your average Mormon spends far less time dwelling on the matter than your average critic does.

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I am saying this is non-inquisitive (non-Berean).

Was Paul being rude to the Thessalonians ???

This thread is beginning to remind me of the one review I saw for "Jersey Boys" wherein the reviewer panned the film because an extra was off-key during a musical number.

Dude was so obsessed with the one extra he missed the bulk of what the film was actually trying to accomplish.

Ran77 said:

Don't know. Don't care.

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Case in point. Follow the "prophet."

When the prophet has spoken, the debate is over.

Just keep on keepin' on. Follow the leader, keep the commandments, don't make waves, endure to the end, get through the veil, inherit your own kingdom. That's pretty much it, isn't it?

Ironhold said:

This thread is beginning to remind me of the one review I saw for "Jersey Boys" wherein the reviewer panned the film because an extra was off-key during a musical number.

Dude was so obsessed with the one extra he missed the bulk of what the film was actually trying to accomplish.

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Are you trying to equate the origin of God with an off-key extra? Is that what he is to you?